Black Dogs

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Black Dogs
OP - September 27, 2014, 12:22 PM

Looking at Paul of Tarsus thread, (welcome btw ), what is it with black dogs, and what is this translation that says "thing" thing".?

Isn't the koran dogist?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #1 - September 27, 2014, 12:34 PM

If I remember correctly there's a sunni hadith which says black dogs are a manifestation of evil. I imagine a quick google search would provide all the answers you want.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #2 - September 27, 2014, 12:42 PM

All those poor black dogs at the animal shelters :(. No muslim will give them a second a look just because of their colour.
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Reply #3 - September 27, 2014, 01:18 PM

I have never met a practicing Muslim who had a dog in the house. You know Muslims cannot pay for a dog? You have to get your dog for free, and give them away like that, too.
I did hear that exceptions are made for Salukis, but I am not too impressed with sight hounds.

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Reply #4 - September 27, 2014, 03:22 PM

Been googling

Quote
My point is, I find it very hard to trust someone who hates animals. It’s like saying you hate all babies. Or you hate all old people. You’re saying you hate something which is unable to survive without you. You hate something that is innocent and whose only crime is to love you unconditionally. You hate something that obeys your commands (most of the time).
If you hate something that’s so good to you, how will you tolerate my many imperfections? How will you handle it when my house is dirty? Or when I need your love and attention?

http://humanrescuesdog.com/someone-who-hates-animals/

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #5 - September 27, 2014, 04:39 PM

I found it here: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Inspired_by_Muhammad#The_Black_Dog_is_a_Devil

It is an excellent resource with links to hadith collections online.

Of course, even though those hadith are posted by Muslims on a college site, a Muslim told me those were fake, American colleges were anti-Islamic, and I needed to download those hadith from a site from a Muslim college in Medina.
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Reply #6 - September 27, 2014, 05:56 PM

Honestly, like all wikis, it's a good place to look if you're willing to do your homework afterward, and you do need to make sure the sources are not only convincing, but reputable. If you can't find a hadith in question anywhere else besides wikiislam's resources, or only on forums or one or two odd websites in English, I wouldn't expect it to be compelling.

For hadith, I like to use sunnah.com. It's easy to search through, it has Arabic and English, it is a popular Muslim website, and, if they're taking out damning ones, they aren't doing a very good job of it.
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Reply #7 - September 27, 2014, 07:28 PM

From wiki islam site above

Quote
Killing Dogs[edit]
Maimuna reported that one morning Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: you promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens).
Sahih Muslim 24:5248
Angels do not like Dogs[edit]
Narrated Abu Talha: I heard Allah's Apostle saying; "Angels (of Mercy) do not enter a house wherein there is a dog or a picture of a living creature (a human being or an animal)."
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:448, See Also Sahih Bukhari 4:54:450, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:338, Sahih Bukhari 7:72:833, Sahih Bukhari 7:72:843, Sahih Muslim 24:5246, Sahih Muslim 24:5249, Sahih Muslim 24:5250, Abu Dawud 1:227
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Angels do not accompany the travellers who have with them a dog and a bell.
Sahih Muslim 24:5277, See Also Sahih Muslim 24:5278
Maimuna reported that one morning Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: you promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we (angels) do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens).
Sahih Muslim 24:5248

All of the above state where they are from. How is it possible to say they are not real?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #8 - September 27, 2014, 07:40 PM

What do you mean, how is it possible? Your average Muslim is not going to have volumes of Bukhari kicking around the house, and if you find a hadith on wikiislam or anywhere else on the internet and it can only be found on that one site or others with less authority, do you really think a Muslim won't find it easy to object?

The fact of the matter is that non-Arabic sources for hadith are commonly disputed anyway by apologists, who claim the meaning was changed in translation and is therefore not the real hadith. If you want to avoid this issue with Muslims who you're trying to show a particular hadith to, don't even mention if you found it in wikiislam. Look it up on sunnah.com or something similar and give it to them from there, where it's right there, rated, and with accompanying Arabic from a website that is a common tool for Sunni Muslims. That's the most likely way to have your hadith taken seriously on here.

By the way, not saying wikiislam is guilty of this--didn't even bother looking at the sources in question when I originally posted--but wikis and online resources or papers in general have been known to do this: one could easily go to wikipedia and write whatever they want and source it "Bukhari 55:555." Responsible research requires locating these volumes instead of just taking a paper's word for it, which I understand is not at all worth it in this case, but you can see why, in the absence of that effort, it's not above suspicion or criticism.
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Reply #9 - September 27, 2014, 08:33 PM

I understand what you mean. The source of the hadith seems reputable enough. They are posted on the University of Sothern California's website by Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement.

Though, the j-word might put some Muslims off, the site is filled with Muslim apologetics.
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Reply #10 - September 27, 2014, 08:34 PM

Of course, my best friend was unaware of these. I didn't have the heart to tell him when he was petting my dog.
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Reply #11 - October 07, 2014, 03:20 AM

Quote from: lua on September 27, 2014, 07:40 PM
What do you mean, how is it possible? Your average Muslim is not going to have volumes of Bukhari kicking around the house, and if you find a hadith on wikiislam or anywhere else on the internet and it can only be found on that one site or others with less authority, do you really think a Muslim won't find it easy to object?

The fact of the matter is that non-Arabic sources for hadith are commonly disputed anyway by apologists, who claim the meaning was changed in translation and is therefore not the real hadith. If you want to avoid this issue with Muslims who you're trying to show a particular hadith to, don't even mention if you found it in wikiislam. Look it up on sunnah.com or something similar and give it to them from there, where it's right there, rated, and with accompanying Arabic from a website that is a common tool for Sunni Muslims. That's the most likely way to have your hadith taken seriously on here.

By the way, not saying wikiislam is guilty of this--didn't even bother looking at the sources in question when I originally posted--but wikis and online resources or papers in general have been known to do this: one could easily go to wikipedia and write whatever they want and source it "Bukhari 55:555." Responsible research requires locating these volumes instead of just taking a paper's word for it, which I understand is not at all worth it in this case, but you can see why, in the absence of that effort, it's not above suspicion or criticism.

When I converted, none of this was even available. It was all "ask this scholar, read that book, buy that translation." There should be apostates in droves now, with this sort of access. It was so freaking hard to find acceptable sources in most of America back in the day.

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Reply #12 - October 07, 2014, 04:56 AM

Quote from: three on September 27, 2014, 01:18 PM
I have never met a practicing Muslim who had a dog in the house. You know Muslims cannot pay for a dog? You have to get your dog for free, and give them away like that, too.
I did hear that exceptions are made for Salukis, but I am not too impressed with sight hounds.

Parvez Musharaf, the former military dictator of Pakistan owns dogs. I have a picture of him with his family and a dog, beautiful dog. Even Jinnah had dogs. Perhaps they are exception.

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Reply #13 - October 08, 2014, 01:40 AM

Are you saying Jinnah was a practicing Muslim? I thought he was atheist. I don't know about Musharraf.

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Reply #14 - October 08, 2014, 03:02 PM

http://sunnah.com/search/black-dogs

its an excellent website used by many muslims and non-muslims.
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Reply #15 - October 08, 2014, 03:21 PM

Except you often get the response "that hadith is considered weak. You should ask a proper scholar. Anyone can pull something of the Internet. Understanding Islam requires studies"

But I like sunnah.com and quran.com. Good resources.

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Reply #16 - October 14, 2014, 08:18 PM

Quote from: three on October 08, 2014, 01:40 AM
Are you saying Jinnah was a practicing Muslim? I thought he was atheist. I don't know about Musharraf.

Jinnah was not an atheist, he was a "moderate" Muslim, but a communal minded bigot. He believed that Muslims cannot co-exist with Hindus. He married a Parsi girl, young enough to be his daughter. But he was very upset when his daughter married a Parsi; the funny thing is that she settled in India.

Musharraf is also a "moderate" Muslim, born in India. His wife wears sari! Shocking!

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Reply #17 - October 14, 2014, 08:47 PM

Musharraf is also an admirer of Ataturk.
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