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Theme Changer

 Topic: Completing deconversion

 (Read 2056 times)
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  • Completing deconversion
     OP - November 12, 2014, 10:37 PM

    Basically after about a year I am feeling pretty comfortable with my deconversion process. I can read theistic arguments and apologetic claims and spot the fallacies and debunk them pretty easily. I no longer have a strong fear response watching deluded fools preaching about hell. Overall, I am becoming quite comfortable as a non believer.

    However, I feel like I have not yet gotten to the point where I am completely ready to leave all religion behind for good. I still feel like there is still a small foundation left in the rubble of my former beliefs. I have read plenty of arguments against the Bible and the Quran, but I still have little nagging doubts that crop up every once in a while and disturb my peace of mind.

    To finish this off, I am wondering if I should finally just sit down and read through the entire Bible and Quran before making up my mind basically for good whether or not to remain an unbeliever. I really feel like just going through and jotting down notes would help me gain the peace that I am not missing any crucial thing that could point to the truth of a religion. There is nothing that makes me feel more comfortable doubting the truth claims of religions than reading their holy scriptures. This would obviously take up a significant amount of time, but I think it would be a good way to just finally close this chapter of uncertainty and angst in my life. Do you guys think this overkill? Would this maybe just further some of my obsessive thinking about religion?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Completing deconversion
     Reply #1 - November 12, 2014, 11:24 PM

    Hmmm. Which version of the bible? There are a fair few, would you read them all? Also, there are a plethora of other holy books, would you read those too?

    I suspect this may be a route to OCD.

    If you really want my opinion, I wouldn't bother. Several billion people reading and interpreting them for more than a millennium haven't been able to agree on their meaning. What makes you think you'll be able to do that on your own, in one attempt?

    Go and do something less boring instead.

  • Completing deconversion
     Reply #2 - November 12, 2014, 11:44 PM

    I have my NRSV Bible. The thing is I am at a Christian college where I religion is in my face all the time. So there is really no hope of just avoiding the subject altogether for a while. I have never just read the Bible straight through and I think it would be the death blow to any doubts that still remain as everytime I read sections of it I can't help but laugh at the ridiculousness and barbarity of it all. Same for the Quran. I think part of my worries lie in the fact that I have not read these books all the way so maybe I am missing some big, important part of them that are convincing to believers. I think it would just allow me to reach the point where I have thoroughly evaluated what has been presented and am functionally certain it is not true.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Completing deconversion
     Reply #3 - November 13, 2014, 12:29 AM

    Go for it if you think it will help close the door on all your religious niggling doubt. I hope to one day do something similar with the Koran(English translation), all be it from a critical point of view so I can make referenced footnotes and use them against some of my less in the know Muslim friends with the purpose of planting seeds of doubt in their minds.  Wink
    I've long since given up on the bible so have no need there anyway Christianity has little influence on my life to feel any need to do anything similar. Jesus as God, Trinity's,  immaculate conceptions, Mary mother of God, transubstantiation (I'm from Catholic background) etc have been convincing enough for me not to believe.
  • Completing deconversion
     Reply #4 - November 13, 2014, 12:41 AM

    I have my NRSV Bible. The thing is I am at a Christian college where I religion is in my face all the time. So there is really no hope of just avoiding the subject altogether for a while. I have never just read the Bible straight through and I think it would be the death blow to any doubts that still remain as everytime I read sections of it I can't help but laugh at the ridiculousness and barbarity of it all. Same for the Quran. I think part of my worries lie in the fact that I have not read these books all the way so maybe I am missing some big, important part of them that are convincing to believers. I think it would just allow me to reach the point where I have thoroughly evaluated what has been presented and am functionally certain it is not true.


    The whole Bible may be a bit much (in terms of length, plus I don't believe it can be profitably read without careful modern scholarly commentary), but I think if you read the Gospels in chronological sequence, and consider the varying accounts they give, it becomes remarkably hard to reconcile it with what later developed as Christianity.

    For example, just reading the earliest Gospel -- Mark -- is revelatory, particularly when you read it without the verses following Mark 16:8, which is where all the earliest manuscripts end (the following verses are later additions). 

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16

    So if you read it as the earliest manuscripts have it ... How can this be what the earliest Christians wrote?  What resemblance does it bear to Christianity?  How can it be reconciled with the LATER claims about Christianity's origins?
  • Completing deconversion
     Reply #5 - November 13, 2014, 02:15 AM

    @doubtingthomas Yeah I pretty much have given up on that stuff too. I suppose I just want to read the Old Testament to see if there is any reason to believe the Jews were expecting a God-man messiah or anything close to what Christians purport Jesus to be. Also, although I am pretty much completely done considering the Bible as God's word, the only thing in Christianity that is somewhat hard to explain is how the belief in the resurrection got going. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul cites an early creed that seems to show that belief in the resurrection dates from a short time after Jesus death. I am interested in figuring out why the original disciples developed this belief in a Jewish context in which it seemed resurrection was always associated with a physical raising of the body from the dead, so it would be difficult to explain it in terms of visions or dreams which would more likely just support a spiritual resurrection.

    @Zaotar oh yes I know all of this already. I have taken classes on both the Old Testament and the New. I plan to read the New Testament in chronological order starting with the earliest epistles of Paul and ending with the forged epistles of Paul (1& 2 Timothy and Titus). The thing is the creed cited in 1 Corinthians is older than Mark's Gospel in which the resurrection appearances are an interpolation. I don't think I accept the empty tomb either since Paul is silent on it and it seems like a literary/apologetic addition by Mark.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Completing deconversion
     Reply #6 - November 13, 2014, 06:01 AM

    Haha for my philosophy class at Christian college I had to write a paper arguing that it is reasonable to believe in god that is due tomorrow. As I hold the exact opposite position as the one I am supposed to be arguing for, this was a weird assignment. I basically had to argue against my own beliefs.

    To give you guys an idea of what I am dealing with here's my prompt:
    Quote
    Your second essay, of at least 1000 words, will be the product of a "performance task." A performance task is an assignment that involves an authentic, "real-world" situation, a role for you to play in this situation, high stakes, and opposition.

    For your specific performance task, you are to imagine yourself living in an ordinary community in the United States 10 years from now. A situation has arisen in this community in which some "New Atheists" in town have launched an aggressive public relations campaign (bankrolled by some local wealthy secular humanists) to persuade the members of the community to stop engaging in religious activities (which these new atheists see as worthless at best and dangerous at worst). As part of their campaign, they have employed a variety of media (Internet, radio, TV, newspapers, advertising, etc.) to communicate various messages that imply that there is no God and that belief in God is irrational. As a prominent Christian in the community, you have been asked to take on the role of representing the Christian faith in an ecumenical town hall panel discussion (which will include representatives of all major world faith traditions along with agnostics and atheists) focused on the question of whether belief in God is rational (justified, reasonable, or warranted). At stake in this discussion is the local cultural climate, which, due to the efforts of the new atheists, has become less and less favorable to belief in God and religious activities based on such belief. Your opposition is, of course the organized group of activist new atheists.

    Since each of the panelists will be asked to give a defense of his or her point of view, you will need to prepare a position paper suitable for the audience of fellow community members that will be in attendance at the town hall meeting. Your position paper should consist in a well-reasoned and persuasive defense of an affirmative answer to the question, "Is belief in God rational?” Since the audience will consist in a mix of different kinds of people with different religious, ethnic, racial, socio-economic, and educational backgrounds, in order for your remarks to be sufficiently accessible to a high percentage of them, you will need to refrain from using sophisticated and complex argumentation and instead employ a brief appeal to simple arguments for God's existence and to religious experience as bases for knowledge of God . At the same time, you will need to reply to objections you anticipate will be forthcoming from the non-theistic panelists (of the sort you would find in Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion and Harris's The End of Faith). Finally, you should also touch on the themes of Pascal's Wager, evidentialism, and the nature of faith.


    The New Atheists are coming and they're gonna persecute us!  Run for the hills
    This is a "high stakes" situation that we need to train our Christian soldiers for!


    I felt like such an idiot writing my paper and I packed it with apologetic arguments I keep hearing. There is nothing like attempting to argue for theism to realize how hopeless it is. I could easily debunk everything I wrote in my paper and I felt like everything I wrote was a little tongue in cheek as if I was satirizing apologists' arguments. I don't understand how seemingly intelligent people like William Lane Craig could find theistic arguments convincing.


    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Completing deconversion
     Reply #7 - November 13, 2014, 02:16 PM

    The whole Bible may be a bit much (in terms of length, plus I don't believe it can be profitably read without careful modern scholarly commentary), but I think if you read the Gospels in chronological sequence, and consider the varying accounts they give, it becomes remarkably hard to reconcile it with what later developed as Christianity.

    For example, just reading the earliest Gospel -- Mark -- is revelatory, particularly when you read it without the verses following Mark 16:8, which is where all the earliest manuscripts end (the following verses are later additions). 

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16

    So if you read it as the earliest manuscripts have it ... How can this be what the earliest Christians wrote?  What resemblance does it bear to Christianity?  How can it be reconciled with the LATER claims about Christianity's origins?


    Romans. The explanation to everything about current Christianity (Catholicism, anyway) is in Romans.
    http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cavitch/pdf-library/St_Paul_Romans.pdf
  • Completing deconversion
     Reply #8 - November 13, 2014, 05:41 PM

    If you must read a Bible I would strongly recommend the New English Bible and the Jerusalem Bible.  They NEB is rare but should be in your college library.

    What is interesting are the notes, the chapter headings and comments - like first creation story, second creation story!  Also the way the poetry bits are laid out!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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