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 Topic: How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?

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  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     OP - February 07, 2015, 01:09 PM
    compared to the scholars of christianity for example

  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #1 - February 07, 2015, 01:20 PM
    Perhaps the inerrancy narrative plays a part?
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #2 - February 07, 2015, 01:32 PM
    Scholars, theologian and the religious careers still have a lot of authority in Christianity, probably more so than Islam since denominations are far more institutionalized and structured. I agree with Qtian but would also add the concept of the literal word of God. Not necessarily the concept of literalism of every verse but the method of communication.
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #3 - February 07, 2015, 01:36 PM
    i would have thought the fact that muslims have the perfect word of god would mean the 'scholarly' opinion is much less important. We have god's opinion in the quran.
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #4 - February 07, 2015, 01:43 PM
    Interesting, I never thought of it in that way. In my mind I had the idea of inerrancy -> scholars are purveyors of true "knowledge".  I mean, from assuming that something is inerrant , it doesn't follow that the true meaning is available to everyone.

    Then again, it was just an open question.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #5 - February 07, 2015, 01:46 PM
    Quote from: bogart on February 07, 2015, 01:32 PM
    ...would also add the concept of the literal word of God. Not necessarily the concept of literalism of every verse but the method of communication.


    Yeah, I think that your point makes more sense.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #6 - February 07, 2015, 01:53 PM
    Well the dismantling of a central authority creates division in interpretation. One need only look at modern societies and in the past to see that not every view has stood the test of time. This division creates a greater need of authority for variant views and practical application. The language used is is by no means the same as standard Arabic so further authority is needed for translation. Converts which do not speak SA let along classical rely on the authority of translation and interpretation. Both religion have traditional authorities to validate scripture in exegesis, ahadith, tafsir, etc. The further the idea is from it's source the greater the reliance on authority is required.
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #7 - February 07, 2015, 02:42 PM
    There's a hadith that says "the inheritors/successors of the prophets are the 'ulama". Throughout my muslim life often i've the heard the hadith being quoted time and again to gain obedience from the lay muslims to the ulama. They aren't just faqihs or alims, they actually hold the authority and position of the prophet being handed down to them. So a pious muslim would be expected to revere the ulama as the greatest human authority currently living.

    and the ulama as a whole, is considered infallible. This again, stems from a hadith, "my ummah will never agree on an error". Thus a single alim might be wrong, but collectively the entire institution of the ulama is infallible. That's why 'ijma/consensus is such a big deal in islam. If such an opinion is the opinion of the 'ijma, then that opinion is the correct one.
    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #8 - February 07, 2015, 02:54 PM
    are we not still left with issue of who counts as a scholar at all? how do we define the ulema?
    Are scholars people who can trace an unbroken line of studying under other scholars, eventually going back to muhammed?
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #9 - February 07, 2015, 03:12 PM
    Hmm. I too don't know what really makes an alim an alim. But i know that isnad does play a role in someone being an alim. There are ulama, even today, who do have isnads going back to the salaf, sahaba, and ultimately to muhammad. And a student of ilm, when done with his studies, gets recognition in the form on an 'ijaza, it's a certificate from your teacher that you studied under him and that you have enough ilm to make rulings or whatever.
    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #10 - February 07, 2015, 10:06 PM
    The Eid feasts got really out of hand last season.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #11 - February 08, 2015, 05:46 AM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on February 07, 2015, 02:54 PM
    are we not still left with issue of who counts as a scholar at all? how do we define the ulema?
    Are scholars people who can trace an unbroken line of studying under other scholars, eventually going back to muhammed?


    I think we are left with such a case. Any issue is modern scholarship is based on previous scholarship and so on. At some point this chain creates a contradiction between modern views and that of the past. Take slavery as a prime example. Modern scholars will argue that slavery was to be abolished, is immoral, etc. Contemporaries will agree to a point before one starts find a change of views in the chain of scholars. A new chain is made with opposite views which is closer to the source of these views. Hence why people will ignore certain adhaith thus creating a self-refuting view. If previous scholarship is not reliable than one can not use a chain of scholars as a source of authority. Further more this places Islamic tradition in the realm of being questionable since it relies on said chain for reliability which is now broken. This issue is not one of academy but of dogma, doctrine and tradition. One can accept tradition is not reliable as claimed which causes one to question basic tradition regarding the reliability of the Quran and post scholarship. An reevaluation of such a massive collection of scholarship is hindered by religious views. So cherry picking view becomes the method used rather than question basic beliefs which give Islam it's foundation.

    Another view is geocentric versus heliocentric models. Modern scholars will makes claims that the Quran supports the later. While older scholarship shows no support when geocentric views were dominate. Again ad hoc rationalization comes to the rescue by rejecting views or reinterpretation of geocentric models in favor of the heliocentric model.
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #12 - February 08, 2015, 01:30 PM
    The history of Universities for example in Britain has been about slowly breaking away from religious authority - isn't the history of dissection and anatomy in Europe about that?

    Isn't this another example of a renaissance not actually happening in Islam?  It is very badly institutionalised. 

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #13 - February 08, 2015, 01:33 PM
    Is there anything like the Cadfael novels in Islam?  They are precisely about rational ways in a religious world.  Umberto Eco, Name of the Rose is similar.
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #14 - February 08, 2015, 02:50 PM
    Europe's history is about the dismantling of the monopoly the Church had on every aspect of life. The Church had veto rights for almost everything. If the veto was not accepted the sword was put to use instead.  

    The renaissance was about rediscovering of lost knowledge and developed of new ideas in an more open society than previously. Islam lost no knowledge other than claimed religious knowledge in the form of corruption of previous texts. It conquered areas which held knowledge but it was never Arabian knowledge to begin with. Muslims did develop new ideas but this legacy is based on Persia and Greek ideas, not Arabian. This timeline is similar to Christianity taking over the Roman Empire(s), they gained knowledge which was never tied to their religion nor developed by the Hebrew culture. Both assimilated what was present and worked with it. Islam is now in a period of regression like that after the fall of Rome. Perhaps new view will develop in order to rediscovered or develop a new form of Islam like that of Christianity. I hope that this happens as the alternatives present are horrible.
  • How did scholary opinion gain so much weight?
     Reply #15 - February 08, 2015, 04:25 PM
    So we need to wait another 1500 years....
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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