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Theme Changer

 Topic: Unusual legal precedent here.

 (Read 3343 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Unusual legal precedent here.
     OP - December 26, 2008, 10:10 PM

    France overrules Muslim couple's annulment

    MONS-EN-BAROEUL, France ? It was a match made in heaven, and both families approved. The groom was a computer engineer, the bride a nursing student. Children of Moroccan immigrants, they had thrived in French society and seemed at home with its ways.

    But on their wedding night, the groom discovered that his bride was not the virgin she had said she was. He stormed out of the bridal chamber. His father, outraged, said the marriage was off. That same night, he returned the young woman to her family home.

    The drama in this middle-class suburb of apartment blocks and supermarkets, on the eastern edge of Lille in northern France, could have remained a private family affair ? that is what its main protagonists desperately wanted. But instead, it set off a legal struggle with strong political undertones and an explosion of outrage by media-savvy activists in Paris. In the end, it became a parable for the strain France has encountered in absorbing the more than 5 million Muslims, about 8 percent of the population and growing, who have made this country their home.

    As part of a national round of soul-searching, French leaders are recognizing with unusual frankness that the country needs to do more to promote integration of Muslims and other children of immigrants. President Nicolas Sarkozy last week named Yazid Sabeg, a successful businessman born to Algerian immigrants, to head a government department assigned to get more minority candidates into politics and more minority students into the elite academies that turn out France's leadership class.

    "We must change," Sarkozy declared.

    Full article here.

    This one is slightly odd. On the one hand I think it's stupid to require a woman to be a virgin when you marry her. I agree it is also discriminatory as it can't realistically be applied to men. On the other hand in a sense there is a breach of an agreement here, if the marriage was initially conducted under the assumption that she was a virgin. The article doesn't make it clear whether she had specifically said she was or not. What do people think of this one?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Unusual legal precedent here.
     Reply #1 - December 26, 2008, 10:28 PM

    She could've also just broken her hymen riding a bike or something.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Unusual legal precedent here.
     Reply #2 - December 26, 2008, 10:35 PM

    Well yes, there is that. Some women are even born without much of a hymen at all. 

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Unusual legal precedent here.
     Reply #3 - December 26, 2008, 10:48 PM

    Irrelevant. 

    The salient point here, is whether or not French law should recognise lying about virginity as an acceptable grounds for annulment. 

    I would say no.  Given the social pressures that can be applied to a muslim woman to lie about her virginity, I would argue that any man who sees his marriage as void when he finds out the truth, needs divorcing.  Not annulment, with its clean sheet, but a full scaled divorce - unless of course he is prepared to stay married to this unclean creature who lied like a whore out of hell.  Roll Eyes

    Annulment lets him off too easy.  If he can't accept a wife who isn't a virgin, and can't be understanding enough to see that she lied because she was scared, then divorce with its 50/50 division of resources is the way forward.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Unusual legal precedent here.
     Reply #4 - December 26, 2008, 10:50 PM

    Anyway what I was really getting at was that if a woman says she's a virgin (which I suppose in this context would entail some messy wedding night proof of her assertion) and she aint (which personally I wouldn't care about anyway) then does this deception seem like a reasonable basis for annulment if she knew virginity was important to her prospective spouse?

    Of course this leads to the question of why any sane woman would want to marry a bloke like that anyway, but that's a different topic.

    ETA: Bloody cross-posting Snowflake. :p

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Unusual legal precedent here.
     Reply #5 - December 26, 2008, 10:56 PM

    No, it isn't.  Lying about your virginity should absolutely not be grounds for annulment in secular France, which bans religious symbols in schools and public buildings.  It is not an acceptable clause, in the first place,  to put in a marriage contract in a secular country.

    That's not to say he has to stay married to her - they should get divorced.  Tough shite if he doesn't want a divorce and simultaneously doesn't want to be married to a satanic whore, ie a non-virgin who lied about it.  Tough shit, get divorced and don't expect the whole legal system to set a new precedent for your backward, superstitious values.

    Barf.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Unusual legal precedent here.
     Reply #6 - December 26, 2008, 10:59 PM

    I respectfully disagree with the court's decision.

     grin12

    But hang on, if people can negotiate pre-nuptials in a secular country why would virginity not be one of the conditions that could be part of the package?

    It isn't a religious question as such.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Unusual legal precedent here.
     Reply #7 - December 26, 2008, 11:03 PM

    I respectfully disagree with the court's decision.

     grin12

    But hang on, if people can negotiate pre-nuptials in a secular country why would virginity not be one of the conditions that could be part of the package?

    It isn't a religious question as such.


    Because pre-nuptial agrrements, or contracts, deal with the disposal of assets in the event of a future divorce.  I never in my life heard of a pre-nup which stipulated that the marriage would be annulled if the bride wasn't a virgin.

    Its bollocks.  There is no reason why France should put up with it.  They're French, let them follow their own culture.  Nobody demands that Saudi Arabian brides live with their future husbands before marriage. Or that they have boyfriends.  This is the same the other way round.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Unusual legal precedent here.
     Reply #8 - December 27, 2008, 12:40 AM

    5 million muslim, 8% of the population. Where those numbers from?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Unusual legal precedent here.
     Reply #9 - December 27, 2008, 10:24 AM

    But hang on, if people can negotiate pre-nuptials in a secular country why would virginity not be one of the conditions that could be part of the package?

    Certain contracts are illegal or immoral and are therefore void.  As are certain terms of contracts.
    If a contract contains a term which is illegal, that term is struck out. 

    These terms or contracts are decided by a court.  So for example if you agree with a third party that if he pays you a million dollars, you'll divorce your wife and he agrees and pays you the million dollars, he cannot go to court to force you to divorce your wife.

    The question is is this term of the contract one of those terms which should be rendered unenforceable by the court?  The basis would be for the good of society.
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