ar-Razi on Religion

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- cosmicdancer
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ar-Razi on Religion
OP - January 04, 2009, 01:14 PM

Someone sent me this link and I found it a bit of an eye opener. I was aware that Razi and other scientists and philosophers held some 'heretical' views, but I wasn't aware of the extent of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Zakar%C4%ABya_R%C4%81zi#On_Religion

Razi wrote three books dealing with religion; they were: The Prophets' Fraudulent Tricks (Arabic مخارق الانبياء), The Stratagems of Those Who Claim to Be Prophets (Arabic حيل المتنبيين), and On the Refutation of Revealed Religions (Arabic نقض الادیان). He offered harsh criticism concerning religions, in particular those religions that claim to have been revealed by prophetic experiences. Razi asserted that "[God] should not set some individuals over others, and there should be between them neither rivalry nor disagreement which would bring them to perdition."[16] He argued,

"On what ground do you deem it necessary that God should single out certain individuals [by giving them prophecy], that he should set them up above other people, that he should appoint them to be the people's guides, and make people dependent upon them?[16]

Concerning the link between violence and religion, Razi expressed that God must have known, considering the many disagreements between different religions, that "there would be a universal disaster and they would perish in the mutual hostilities and fighting. Indeed, many people have perished in this way, as we can see."[16]

He was also critical of the lack of interest among religious adherents in the rational analysis of their beliefs, and the violent reaction which takes its place:

"If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed."[16]

Al-Razi believed that common people had originally been duped into belief by religious authority figures and by the status quo. He believed that these authority figures were able to continually deceive the common people "as a result of [religious people] being long accustomed to their religious denomination, as days passed and it became a habit. Because they were deluded by the beards of the goats, who sit in ranks in their councils, straining their throats in recounting lies, senseless myths and "so-and-so told us in the name of so-and-so..."[16]

He believed that the existence of a large variety of religions was, in itself, evidence that they were all man made, saying, "Jesus claimed that he is the son of God, while Moses claimed that He had no son, and Muhammad claimed that he [Jesus] was created like the rest of humanity."[16] and "Mani and Zoroaster contradicted Moses, Jesus and Muhammad regarding the Eternal One, the coming into being of the world, and the reasons for the [existence] of good and evil."[16] In relation to the Hebrew's God asking of sacrifices, he said that "This sounds like the words of the needy rather than of the Laudable Self-sufficient One."[16]

On the Quran, al-Razi said:

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?! [16]

From the beginning of the human history, all of those who claimed to be prophets were, in his worst assumption tortuous and devious and with his best assumption had psychological problems.[1]
- cosmicdancer
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Re: ar-Razi on Religion
Reply #1 - January 04, 2009, 01:16 PM

Quote from: Hassan on January 04, 2009, 01:14 PM
On the Quran, al-Razi said:

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?! [16]

That bit is brilliant - absolutely amazing, particularly for the age he lived in!

I don't know how he got away with it?
- Blas
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Re: ar-Razi on Religion
Reply #2 - January 04, 2009, 01:25 PM

Quote from: Hassan on January 04, 2009, 01:16 PM
Quote from: Hassan on January 04, 2009, 01:14 PM
On the Quran, al-Razi said:

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?! [16]

That bit is brilliant - absolutely amazing, particularly for the age he lived in!

I don't know how he got away with it?

He was brilliant..

He also wrote:

*These billy goats (Prophets) pretend to come with a message from God, all the while exhausting themselves in spouting their lies, and imposing on the masses blind obedience to the "words of the master.*

Ubi dubium ibi libertas.
- awais
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Re: ar-Razi on Religion
Reply #3 - January 04, 2009, 02:50 PM

i mentioned him before, made a thread about him, but i guess that's in the archives. his pals are cool too, ar-rawandi, and muhammad al-warraq (from whom ibn warraq takes his name)

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
- whatabastor
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Re: ar-Razi on Religion
Reply #4 - January 04, 2009, 03:24 PM

Ar-Razi and Ibn-Sina and many others had these views as well as many others...

I know, how did they get away with such things without being killed, but it seems like they lived in a more liberal world, since many of them existed in that era as awais mentioned.
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Re: ar-Razi on Religion
Reply #5 - January 06, 2009, 09:36 PM

Quote from: Blas on January 04, 2009, 01:25 PM
Quote from: Hassan on January 04, 2009, 01:16 PM
Quote from: Hassan on January 04, 2009, 01:14 PM
On the Quran, al-Razi said:

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?! [16]

That bit is brilliant - absolutely amazing, particularly for the age he lived in!

I don't know how he got away with it?

He was brilliant..

He also wrote:

*These billy goats (Prophets) pretend to come with a message from God, all the while exhausting themselves in spouting their lies, and imposing on the masses blind obedience to the "words of the master.*

I don't think that could be said any better. I'm going to add it to my list of .sigs.
- waked
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Re: ar-Razi on Religion
Reply #6 - January 09, 2009, 02:46 PM

If you read the Arabic translations in the Wikipedia you can see that the section you quoted was not translated to Arabic .
It seems to me Medieval Islam was more tolerant than 21 century Islam .

Thanks for the link.
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Re: ar-Razi on Religion
Reply #7 - January 09, 2009, 04:22 PM

Quote from: waked on January 09, 2009, 02:46 PM
If you read the Arabic translations in the Wikipedia you can see that the section you quoted was not translated to Arabic .
It seems to me Medieval Islam was more tolerant than 21 century Islam .

Thanks for the link.

No, it's just certain periods during that era that were more tolerant, eventually they have been taken down by traditionalists, just as is happening these days.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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