I've just had a conversation with a guy who sometimes contacts me (with months in between) to see how I'm doing (because of my apostasy.) Note that his zeal and ideas are similar to those of the Salafis, but he himself says he doesn't belong to a particular group.
Him: hello aziz
Him: how are you
Aziz: hello
Aziz: i'm fine, how are you?
Him: im in the best of health and imaan all praise is to Allah
Him: what are u up to these days
Aziz: not much. always active at councilofexmuslims.com
Him: very amusing
Him: so has any extremist, terrorist e.t.c. come to slice off your head:P?
Aziz: no, how should that happen?
Him: lol
Aziz: oh btw, i even have a YouTube channel where i post videos with German subtitles
Him: videos of who?
Aziz: at the moment, Hassan Radwan and Edward Current
Him: so not u:P
Aziz: upcoming is one video of John Armstrong
Aziz: yes, not me.
Aziz: how are things at UI?
Him: i havent posted on there regularly for a few years now
Him: im busy in real life
Aziz: i see
Him: im both a psychologist and sociologist, as well as one of the centres of the community in my locality... so i can read people fairly quickly
Aziz: oh i see. do you have degrees also? or just a hobby?
Him: im doing a degree at the moment
Him: i have forgotten ur age
Him: how old are u
Aziz: shouldn't matter
Him: what do u think i am? a man of prejudice
Him: im just asking
Him: i know that u are probably a couple of years older than me
Him: maybe in ur mid to late 20s
Aziz: what makes you write to me now and then?
Him: overwhelming it is curiosity
Him: partly a hope that maybe you have renounced your foolishness
Him: partly just seeing how you're getting along
Aziz: haha, my foolishness
Him: indeed
Aziz: not even my cousin makes the effort to try convince me.
he knows I have thought a lot about it.
Him: well
Him: think about it logically
Him: as u are aware, we muslims consider islam to be the be all and end all of everything
Him: therefore, naturally, we would assume that no matter how much you have thought about it, you are wrong
Him: therefore, we would be knocking on your door again
Aziz: yes, that goes for most fundamentally convinced religious nutjobs
Him: that's me, and the muslim ummah
Him: alhamdulillah
Him: so, how do you spend your days
Him: these days
Him: (btw, plz do not presume that i have malicious intent towards you now... even though i desire your re-entering into islam, i still desire your good, you have nothing to be afraid of or doubt from me)
Aziz: watch the last minutes of this video: (i linked to the location)
Him: very sad
Aziz: indeed
Him: back to my question how do you spend your time these days
Aziz: i'm in a jihad against Islam, alhamdulillah
Him: then i would look forward to meeting u on a battlefield some day
Him: if u want to fight jihad, first fight me
Him: convince me
Him: i have hundreds of muslims who listen to my talks
Him: if u convince me it might be something
Aziz: oh have you become another stand-up-sheik?
Him: no
Him: in my university, i am merely the vice imaam
Him: so sometimes i am pressured to give a few words of advice or something like that
Aziz: only to Muslims?
Aziz: or do non-Muslims engage you in conversations?
Him: mainly to muslims.. non muslims sometimes listen to the main talks, but usually they come and ask questions.. so we kinda have QandA for them
Aziz: qanda?
Him: sorry Q and A
Him: question and answer
Aziz: ah
Aziz: would you read chapter 98 and tell me your opinion about it? especially verse 6?
Him: but i dont like to speak much, we have big scholars present often, so we ask them to speak
Him: very clear cut verse
Him: yo aziz
Him: just a question
Him: that i may have asked befor
Him: if a day of judgement does come, and this is all true... then what will u say to Allah?
Aziz: does it matter? what can i tell an allknowing being which it doesn't already know?
can i lie? can i beg for mercy?
Him: no, u can do neither
Aziz: also, let me ask the same question in return.
Him: but if Allah asks you, my servant were not my signs revealed and made clear to you?
Aziz: what if Jesus is the Saviour? what will you say on JDay?
Aziz: they perhaps were, but i didn't see where...
Him: i accept that jesus is a savior... every messenger was a saviour
Aziz: c'mon
Aziz: you know what i mean
Aziz: but you certainly don't accept Joseph Smith, Bahaullah, Ahmad Ghulam etc.
Him: the flawed arguments of the christians - original sin and all that... it is clearly mistaken, right from the basic doctrine. How does a man dying for ur sins purge u from the transgression u have done? It doesnt make sense. Each person has his own account. That makes sense in the law of the world and the law of Allah
Him: i accept the chain of the messengers from the first Adam, til the last Muhammad, the blessings of Allah are upon them all
Him: after that, yes i reject them all
Aziz: well yes. it doesn't make sense. but so does eternal damnation for unbelief.
Him: well, for that u must understand two things
Him: firstly that Allah is the most just, He does not do the slightest amount of injustice... and secondly that he is the most merciful, His mercy encompasses everything, whereas his wrath strikes only a few. If one were wretched enough to be away from the mercy of the most merciful, then how much loss would he be in?
Him: so put the two together and understand the concept
Aziz: no Allah is none of that, if you damnation for unbelief is true.
Aziz: you see
Aziz: you blame the Christian doctrine
Aziz: for being non-sensical
Aziz: but your explanation doesn't make any sense to me either.
Aziz: if Allah were truly just and merciful he would only punish me for the bad deed I committed.
Him: it is completely sensible that God, the ruler that he is, set down rules and parameters beyond which any who transgress become liable for punishment. The fact is that in the sight of God there are things that are abhorrent though a human may not have a problem with it. For example, for the muslims to miss a prayer takes them right to the doors of disbelief, it is that much disliked by Allah. So in the same way, Allah despises disbelief. Think for a moment. He created you, gave you everything, keeps you up and running, and then rather than recognise him and thank him, u turn your face and disbelieve?
Him: he does not like it, He is
Him: God, end of story
Aziz: i read the exact explanation recently on themuslimzone.com
Him: one should understand that many scholars give many explanations, some more "convincing" than others
Aziz: well, the problem is, that is only a claim made by a man. I don't have to accept that without proof, and his concept of God is very repulsive to me.
Aziz: also
Him: u have read the qur'an yes? - i mean the whole quran and not the bits you have taken out of context on ur websites
Aziz: it didn't cost Allah ANYTHING to create the Universe, after all he is omnipotent.
Aziz: no, not just bits. but whole chapters, yes. but not completely.
Him: so what? He sets down rules regardless
Him: what do u mean by chapters? surahs?
Aziz: yes, and those rules conflict fundamentally with what I see as justice.
Aziz: justice and mercy have only meaning between us humans.
Him: well then that is for you to wait and see, you can argue with Allah on the day of judgement
Aziz: and if any human acted like Allah, we would call him a brutal and insane tyrant.
Him:
Aziz: and I didn't even get to choose whether I wanted to be put on this earth! how stupid is that?
Him: you say this about the one who allows you to say that without striking you down
Him: would you prefer to not have been created then?
Aziz: yes
Aziz: absolutely
Him: then kill yourself
Him: u are a strange person
Aziz: why? i don't believe there's a happy afterlife
Him: in general, people say that they want to live for pleasure
Him: u dont want to live even for pleasure?
Aziz: no, you don't even want to consider my objections.
Him: i am considering ur objections
Him: but i do not find substance to them
Him: u must understand, i am a believer in Allah
Aziz: look, what I mean is, if Allah really exists and this life test exists, I would have preferred not to take it at all.
Him: and nothing you can say will shake my faiht
Him: thats not an arrogant statement
Him: its just the truth
Aziz: well yeah, that's not very prudent...
Aziz: one should always consider being wrong, and weigh the evidence all the time
Him: i have considered these arguments before
Him: i am not blind
Aziz: but so did other people of other faiths.
Him: but as i have a deep understanding of the attributes of Allah, u cannot convince me that Allah does injustice
Aziz: they considered the criticism, but still chose to believe the unprovable, stupid stuff.
Him: if Allah says that this is justice, believe me it is
Aziz: no it isn't. there's not proof that this is what the actual creator said.
Him: answer this question then
Aziz: k
Him: think hypothetically
Him: who would know better, God or us?
Aziz: God indeed.
Him: then if God says that justice is A, and we think it is B, who is more likely to be correct?
Aziz: God
Him: precisely... then put it into the equation... God say that He will do no injustice. It occurs in the Qur'an over a dozen times "God did not wrong them, they wronged themselves".. e.t.c... He says that, no injustice. If He then gives any type of punishment, and says it is not injustice, then as you yourself have explained, God knows better what justice is, and therefore it is not injustice
Aziz: Exactly. But who says God has revealed the Qur'an?
Him: lol, ok, so first we can agree that there is one argument out of the way yeah? the punishment one is dealt with
Him: with regards to the Qur'an... the whole idea of it is vast and there are many bits to it
Him: Allah says in the Qur'an, "The Most Merciful, Has taught the Qur'an."
Aziz: well, if I was convinced God said to me I will burn forever if I didn't believe, then obviously I would believe. But which God would say any such mad thing? Obedience would then be only out of fear!
Him: no it wouldnt.. the only time fear would play a part is when you were about to sin
Him: i love Allah more than i fear Him
Him: it is quite simple really.. u should think about the punishment of God before you are about to commit a sin, so it stops u
Aziz: If that is true why did he feel the need to threaten you?
Aziz: threaten you into a particular system of belief and worship?
Him: he doesnt threaten you. he does precisely what a parent or a teacher does. stick and carrot. if u do good, u are rewarded. if u do evil, u are punished.
Him: as far as islam explains it, when God created the first man, since then He gave guidance to humanity
Aziz: no it's more like Disney Land or gas/torture chamber.
Him: liken it to what u will, it doesnt change the nature of it
Him: i dont think u ever read enough about the mercy of Allah whilst u were a muslim
Him: u would understand more if u had done
Him: its a spectrum
Aziz: you speculate too much, I fully knew about the "Mercy of Allah".
Him: u cant have "fully" known anything
Him: if u really knew the mercy of Allah, u wouldnt say the things u have said
Him: answer this one
Aziz: I'm saying them now, because back then I was just a believer, but now I'm highly skeptical of this merciful Allah.
Him: Allah wrote on His Throne... My mercy prevails over My wrath... He wrote in His book.. my mercy encompasses all things, and may anger descends on few... O my servants who have wronged themselves, do not lose hope in the mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins, verily He is the most forgiving, the most clement...
Him: Allah split a part of his mercy into 100 parts. 1 part was sent to the universe, and due to it you see the love between a mother and her child, the animals, the beauty in the creation. The other 99 were reserved for the day of judgement when Allah will show mercy to His creation
Aziz: So what do you call a Tsunami that hits the land and kills millions of people? That's Allah's precision when exacting punishment?
Him: which mercy have you read about?
Aziz: The one in the Qur'an.
Him: ur reading is flawed
Him: i have explained the above to u, read it
Aziz: Yes, very pretty way to describe something which ought to be infinite.
Him: it is put in a way that u can understand
Aziz: "Allah wrote on His Throne", what do you mean by that? Did he laser-etch it onto this thing, which is carried by 8 angels?
Him: if u look at the begining *Allah split a part of his mercy into 100 parts
Him: He wrote it however He willed
Aziz: And what about those mothers who have a sickness that causes them to emotionally reject their newborn?
Him: read this
Him:
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=d3a11490718bd97007911d4d86e27771Aziz: Mothers with this disorder even suffocate them with a blanket...
Aziz: Ok, I know that kufr and shirk will earn you eternal damnation.
Aziz: Answer this:
Aziz: Why didn't Allah declare genocide, rape and murder etc. to be the most abominable of crimes?
If kurf and shirk are such horrible crimes, would you advocate putting these people in prisons to be tried and maybe executed?
Him: the answer is simple
Him: on the day of judgement, Allah will call forward the murderer and the murdered and give justice between them... until the oppressed person will be more than happy at the situation
Him: however, when u commit kufr and shirk, how can u compensate it?
Him: it is against Allah Himself
Him: aziz
Him: let me ask u something
Him: if u live til 50, what religion will u be upon?
Aziz: How can you commit a crime against the Allmighty? How can you possibly hurt him?
Aziz: no religion. they're all stupid.
Him: u cant hurt him, but He decides what He likes and dislikes
Him: so u would be upon atheism til 50, right?
Aziz: No, that's what maniacal prophets decide.
Him: fine, whatever, just answer my question
Aziz: Yes.
Him: what if u lived to 100
Him: would u change it?
Aziz: Only if clear evidence was presented to me.
Him: yes or no
Him: the quran is the clear evidence... u claim to have read bits of it... read it all and then tell me that it is not clear evidence... otherwise i wont accept ur arguments regarding it
Aziz: Um, I can't know for sure what will happen in those years. But okay, I will never believe in any of the silly "holy books".
Him: what if u lived to 10,000 years?
Aziz: It doesn't make any difference how long I would live.
Him: precisely
Aziz: My criteria is evidence.
Aziz: Which the Qur'an is clearly not.
Him: if i live til eternity i would be a believer and try to do good deeds, and if u live til eternity u would be a disbeliever, living life how u wished - doing many thigns which are sins... so if i get rewarded for ever, it is because i was going to live a life of submission to Allah forever, whereas if u get punished forever, it is because u were going to live a life of disobedience to Allah forever
Him: everybody's criteria is evidence... its funny. When Isa alaihissalaam was asked for evidence, Allah gave him big miracles, he brought the dead to life, he healed the leper, he blew life into birds... still they didnt believe
Aziz: How does that explain anything? And who says I will live a less moral life than a believer?
Him: the people of thamud were asked, name ur miracle, what do u want? they pointed and wanted a special camel to come from the mountain and it did... they killed it, and were destroyed
Him: so everyone asked for evidence, and miracles... when the got it, they still disbelieved
Him: Allah says that u live a less moral life than a believer
Aziz: All the time I hear Allah will forgive your sins! That means, believers also commit terrible things, like non-believers, but all will be well if they sincerely repent once in a while and cry their eyes out after namaz.
Him: yes inshaAllah it will be well
Him: u can do the same
Him: and it will be well for u also
Aziz: No, there is no guarantee that Allah exists and that he really revealed the Qur'an.
Aziz: And the story with the camel is so unbelievably inane.
Him: sure it is
Aziz: All the time I hear Allah destroying whole nations.
Him: it is a miracle
Him: it is supposed to be super natural
Aziz: But does it ever occur to this deity that he could just make some really bad people drop dead, instead of fucking everything up?
Aziz: Well, why didn't Allah choose this day and age to reveal some spectacular supernatural miracles?
Him: we have already arrived at the conclusion that God knows best
Him: therefore accept that
Him: he did
Him: the Qur'an
Him:
Aziz: Oh dear me!
Him: lol
Aziz: I accept God knows best, but Allah is certainly not God, and the Qur'an is rubbish.
Him: no one can say that without having first read it
Him: read it properly first, then i will accept ur opinion on it
Aziz: If only it weren't so boring and confusing.
Him: u havent read it, u cant comment
Him: well, the book of God, what did u expect, jokes:P
Him: ?
Aziz: Oh perhaps you'd like me to learn Arabic first, too.
to be continued...
Topic: MSN conversation with a Muslim