The paradox of the ahadith

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The paradox of the ahadith
OP - September 21, 2013, 01:29 PM

Supposing, for one second, that you decide to take all islamic sources (including the weaker/inauthentic ahadith) literally. Literally, insofar as reality is subjective, a fiction, inasmuch as it is a pulsating multiplicity of everything and anything including the unification of cock rock and teeny pop.

In other words, reading islam through your favourite mystic — this person can be a devout and complete atheist like Deleuze (Neochristians like Dawkins, Hitchens et al don't apply here) or a classical sufi like Ibn Arabi.

But then: why should the qu'ran take precedence, even if muhammad existed materialistically? Was not his reality subjective?
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The paradox of the ahadith
Reply #1 - September 21, 2013, 01:44 PM

Q: Why privilege the Qur'an?
A: It is the literal word of God, the truthful content of which is beyond question.

Q: What if a hadith contradicts the Qur'an?
A: Then it must be a fabrication (see above).

Q: But surely the Qur'an was revealed to the world in the form of Muhammad - the man who lived Islam - and must be seen as such?
A: Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Q: Would you like some ice cream?
A: Yes, please.

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The paradox of the ahadith
Reply #2 - September 21, 2013, 01:45 PM

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Re: The paradox of the ahadith
Reply #3 - September 21, 2013, 01:55 PM

Quote from: toor on September 21, 2013, 01:44 PM
Q: But surely the Qur'an was revealed to the world in the form of Muhammad - the man who lived Islam - and must be seen as such?

Pls can you expound upon this point? I think I know what you're getting at, but I require validation.
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The paradox of the ahadith
Reply #4 - September 21, 2013, 02:32 PM

Quote from: schizo on September 21, 2013, 01:29 PM
Supposing, for one second, that you decide to take all islamic sources (including the weaker/inauthentic ahadith) literally. Literally, insofar as reality is subjective, a fiction, inasmuch as it is a pulsating multiplicity of everything and anything including the unification of cock rock and teeny pop.

In other words, reading islam through your favourite mystic — this person can be a devout and complete atheist like Deleuze (Neochristians like Dawkins, Hitchens et al don't apply here) or a classical sufi like Ibn Arabi.

But then: why should the qu'ran take precedence, even if muhammad existed materialistically? Was not his reality subjective?

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The paradox of the ahadith
Reply #5 - September 21, 2013, 04:42 PM

Quote from: schizo on September 21, 2013, 01:55 PM
Pls can you expound upon this point? I think I know what you're getting at, but I require validation.

Well, there's not really much to expound.

Let's say that Muhammad was the only true Muslim; therefore, one must imitate him - as the only divinely approved Muslim that we can be sure of - to seek some measure of eternal salvation (or is that bliss?). All very orthodox so far, right?

Now, the Qur'an - given that Allah had the choice of so many people in nominating a messenger - must have been designed to make sense to Muhammad, for Muhammad to then make it intelligible to those around him. But, a snag in the divine plan: the further transmission of such knowledge immediately involves a game of Jannah-chasing Chinese Whispers, with people aiming to bring their own desires into line with the revealed message (and vice versa); this is even before one considers Muhammad's own desires in the interpretation of the divine (we are told that he was, ultimately, just a man - no?).

My own thought: if Allah had wanted a faithful, unedited copy of his message.. why didn't he just deputize a talking rock?

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The paradox of the ahadith
Reply #6 - September 21, 2013, 06:14 PM

Quote from: toor on September 21, 2013, 04:42 PM
Now, the Qur'an - given that Allah had the choice of so many people in nominating a messenger - must have been designed to make sense to Muhammad, for Muhammad to then make it intelligible to those around him. But, a snag in the divine plan: the further transmission of such knowledge immediately involves a game of Jannah-chasing Chinese Whispers, with people aiming to bring their own desires into line with the revealed message (and vice versa); this is even before one considers Muhammad's own desires in the interpretation of the divine (we are told that he was, ultimately, just a man - no?).

Are you claiming that if islam is true, allah wanted his revelation to be corrupted unknowingly by both sufistic elites and the sahaba, community and salaf? If so I agree.

You see where this leads to though, don't you? You have to argue that 4:34 is unambiguously real, but the wife is not a woman because woman does not exist.

The orthodox elite actually have a point when they declare people who translate the verse as 'beat lightly' to be mushrikeen. Well yes, because the revelation was designed to be corrupted unknowingly and this is why islam isn't a real salafism. When a liberal reformer proclaims that the verse only talks about light beatings, well then, isn't he/she committing kufr because he/she is changing the revelation, which actually affirms the fact that no alterations have taken place? To truly change the revelation, you need to be radical and take the revelation literally. Do nothing, in other words. Because such pseudoactivity has already been calculated into the master/slave dialectic of the book.

Quote from: toor on September 21, 2013, 04:42 PM
My own thought: if Allah had wanted a faithful, unedited copy of his message.. why didn't he just deputize a talking rock?

And this is what is truly horrific. Any authoritarian regime would pale in comparison. It wouldn't be like the authoritarianism of the old, it would resemble something more like Dubai.
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The paradox of the ahadith
Reply #7 - September 21, 2013, 07:09 PM

Quote from: schizo on September 21, 2013, 06:14 PM
Are you claiming that if islam is true, allah wanted his revelation to be corrupted unknowingly by both sufistic elites and the sahaba, community and salaf? If so I agree.

You see where this leads to though, don't you? You have to argue that 4:34 is unambiguously real, but the wife is not a woman because woman does not exist.

This would be quite the take on 3:54, yes; especially if one somehow came to know the divine purpose and came to the conclusion that the account of 2:75-2:90 was... ironic? fanciful?

Quote from: schizo on September 21, 2013, 06:14 PM
The orthodox elite actually have a point when they declare people who translate the verse as 'beat lightly' to be mushrikeen. Well yes, because the revelation was designed to be corrupted unknowingly and this is why islam isn't a real salafism. When a liberal reformer proclaims that the verse only talks about light beatings, well then, isn't he/she committing kufr because he/she is changing the revelation, which actually affirms the fact that no alterations have taken place? To truly change the revelation, you need to be radical and take the revelation literally. Do nothing, in other words. Because such pseudoactivity has already been calculated into the master/slave dialectic of the book.

The same orthodox elite may well have one killed for such a line of thought..

Quote from: schizo on September 21, 2013, 06:14 PM
It wouldn't be like the authoritarianism of the old, it would resemble something more like Dubai.

Not sure I'm following here - how so?

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Reply #8 - September 21, 2013, 07:18 PM
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Re: The paradox of the ahadith
Reply #9 - September 21, 2013, 07:48 PM

Quote from: toor on September 21, 2013, 07:09 PM
Not sure I'm following here - how so?

Islam as utopian consumerism. But I was being facetious, yknow?
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