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 Topic: "Defeating the Taliban"

 (Read 3976 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • "Defeating the Taliban"
     OP - May 06, 2009, 08:26 PM

    Just been watching the news and they were discussing the US attack that killed civilians and how the Taliban are growing in strength and how the US wants Pakistan and Afghanistan to do more to "defeat the Taliban"

    I don't know about you, but I don't believe the Taliban (or militant Islam in general) can be defeated with guns and bombs. The Taliban and their supporters are GROWING.

    I know there are no simple solutions or answers.

    But my own opinion is that those in Muslim countries (and the US and Europe etc...) who really want to "defeat the Taliban" should help, protect and encourage those groups, intellectuals and individuals who are critical of the traditionalists and of Islam itself. They need to encourage the debate about Islam - rather than suppress it and jail critics. They should protect ex-Muslims and those who want reform instead of persecuting and killing them.

    It may seem obvious - but they are not doing it. On the contrary they supress those who criticise Islam and support hudood punishments on one hand while saying they want to "defeat the Taliban" on the other?

    It's a contradiction?


  • Re: "Defeating the Taliban"
     Reply #1 - May 06, 2009, 08:44 PM

    I suppose they're afraid that if they criticise Islam and protect ex-muslims and reformists. their population will backlash and start to support the extremists?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: "Defeating the Taliban"
     Reply #2 - May 06, 2009, 08:45 PM

    Just been watching the news and they were discussing the US attack that killed civilians and how the Taliban are growing in strength and how the US wants Pakistan and Afghanistan to do more to "defeat the Taliban"

    I don't know about you, but I don't believe the Taliban (or militant Islam in general) can be defeated with guns and bombs. The Taliban and their supporters are GROWING.

    I know there are no simple solutions or answers.

    But my own opinion is that those in Muslim countries (and the US and Europe etc...) who really want to "defeat the Taliban" should help, protect and encourage those groups, intellectuals and individuals who are critical of the traditionalists and of Islam itself. They need to encourage the debate about Islam - rather than suppress it and jail critics. They should protect ex-Muslims and those who want reform instead of persecuting and killing them.

    It may seem obvious - but they are not doing it. On the contrary they supress those who criticise Islam and support hudood punishments on one hand while saying they want to "defeat the Taliban" on the other?

    It's a contradiction?





    It is so amazingly difficult for outsiders to control the region that the Taliban are strong in. That is probably why the Pakistani Government tried to do that deal with them, because it was too much hardwork.

    So to defeat the Taliban, they do need to be intellectually defeated.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: "Defeating the Taliban"
     Reply #3 - May 06, 2009, 08:53 PM

    I suppose they're afraid that if they criticise Islam and protect ex-muslims and reformists. their population will backlash and start to support the extremists?


    Yes there is that - but there are many Muslims who would like to speak up and support the reformists and intellectuals if they felt they were protected/encouraged - rather than persecuted - not only by fundamentalists - but by a government trying to appease the fundamentalists.
  • Re: "Defeating the Taliban"
     Reply #4 - May 06, 2009, 08:55 PM

    [
    So to defeat the Taliban, they do need to be intellectually defeated.


    Absolutely - and that means a change of direction - from military to intellectual/education/protection for reformists/intellectuals who say unpopular things (unpopular to the nitwits).
  • Re: "Defeating the Taliban"
     Reply #5 - May 06, 2009, 09:41 PM

    The best way to solve this problem in Pakistan is to arm the local tribes men.
  • Re: "Defeating the Taliban"
     Reply #6 - May 07, 2009, 04:12 AM

    The best way to solve this problem in Pakistan is to arm the local tribes men.

    failed miserably. the local tribesmen were crudely armed and trained and funded, while the Taliban get MILLIONS of US$ each month from the heroin as well as funding from Saudi-backed madrassas etc and have access to unprecedented informants and intelligence that compromise the army easily.

    this is all a game of intelligence services. unfortunately in pakistan many elements within the ISI are remnants of the Zia jihad era of the 1980s which made the Mujahideen in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. Saudi/Wahabi money was used...and the same people are sympathetic to the Taliban and making lives of Pakistanis like me and others difficult.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: "Defeating the Taliban"
     Reply #7 - May 07, 2009, 05:13 AM

    The best way to solve this problem in Pakistan is to arm the local tribes men.

    That's what created the Taliban in the first place.

    What's needed is a massive national educational campaign promoting humanistic values derived from indigenous sources, whether pluralistic Sufis like Bulleh Shah, or indigenous humanistic poets and writers like Syed Saadat Manto, Quratulain Haider, Faiz Ahmed Faiz, Habib Jalib, etc. People are very anti-West and anti-American, so they can't be made to feel that a Western imperialistic agenda is being imposed on them (the Taliban thrive on this anti-Western attitude). That's why a humanistic and pluralistic agenda based on our own poets, philosophers and pluralistic mystics needs to be formulated and popularized.

    Some friends of mine in Pakistan are already working on this and I hope to join them when I go back.

    If the public can awaken to some degree and the political will can be generated to oust the Taliban, then perhaps there is a chance that Pakistan will not disintegrate. Otherwise ... I think in the long run the provinces will secede and there will be much suffering.
  • Re: "Defeating the Taliban"
     Reply #8 - May 13, 2009, 07:53 PM

    Just been watching the news and they were discussing the US attack that killed civilians and how the Taliban are growing in strength and how the US wants Pakistan and Afghanistan to do more to "defeat the Taliban"

    I don't know about you, but I don't believe the Taliban (or militant Islam in general) can be defeated with guns and bombs. The Taliban and their supporters are GROWING.

    I know there are no simple solutions or answers.

    But my own opinion is that those in Muslim countries (and the US and Europe etc...) who really want to "defeat the Taliban" should help, protect and encourage those groups, intellectuals and individuals who are critical of the traditionalists and of Islam itself. They need to encourage the debate about Islam - rather than suppress it and jail critics. They should protect ex-Muslims and those who want reform instead of persecuting and killing them.

    It may seem obvious - but they are not doing it. On the contrary they supress those who criticise Islam and support hudood punishments on one hand while saying they want to "defeat the Taliban" on the other?

    It's a contradiction?



    Here's the deal

    The taliban were for all intent and purposes effectively defeated in 2002 - the cadres and some tier-1 fighters escaped across the border into Baluchistan and FATA (which the Pakistanis couldnt do much about since these areas, especially FATA are not under Pakistani law).

    Then, mistakes were made such as:

    1. Funding and political support given to pro-western warlords responsible for massacres and rapes across Afghanistan

    2. Alienation of the Pashtun majority by appointing contraversial Tajiks and Uzbeks to high posts (often warlords involved in drug trafficking and extortion)

    3. Very little funding for reconstruction and development of the country, most of the money went to military expenditures, into the pockets of foreign contractors or was siphoned off by corrupt Afghan officials.

    4. Appointment of Karzai, a corrupt politician whose own brother is quite possibly the biggest drug dealer in Afghanistan.

    5. Widespread corruption where the average Afghan must pay a bribe for every government service, extortion on highways and at crossing points. Same with the court system.

    6. Rising insecurity and banditry, often linked to law enforcement or warlords.

    Result: The average uneducated Afghan starts to long for the days of the Taliban where security was much better and corruption much lower.

    This is also why the Taliban were able to consolidate power quickly in 1996, the population had had enough of the bloodshed and insecurity brought on by the warlords (ex-mujahedin commanders).

    There are of course other factors such as state funding (Pakistan for instance) but the "hearts and minds" of the Afghans, crucial to any counter-insurgency strategy, are slowly being lost.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: "Defeating the Taliban"
     Reply #9 - May 13, 2009, 08:06 PM

    Get the 'moderate muslims' on side and clerics. Protect those who criticise and help Pakistan keep control by funds and weapons if necessary.

    Defeating Taliban will take a long time.

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: "Defeating the Taliban"
     Reply #10 - May 13, 2009, 09:08 PM

    Out of Subject. Welcome Meredith.

    In Subject: The examples used in the past to successfully get tribal societies in line are not pretty.

    Ataturk: Would send a teacher to a region and made a rule that if the teacher gets killed, a cleric from the region dies. (Often a lot more then the cleric would pay as well).

    Rome: Decimation of the worst 10%. Rome would enter a city, identify the worst 10% of its opposition and proceed to decimate. (Decimation is the Destruction of 1 in 10). In my opinion, a form of benign decimation will be required. With our current technology and stronger humanistic values, we can neutralize the worst 10% instead of destroying them.

    Also in my opinion, the US in iraq did perform a decimation. But the US decimated the wrong target. The US made the assumption that the worst resistance in iraq comes from the Baath and they proceeded to dedimate based on this assumption. The result of course is that the US neutralized the secular resistance and left the door open for sectarian resistance to become stronger.

    Arming the locals: One of the few British colonists in the middle-east, that had achieved the best control over the area he controlled, did exactly what Tut is advising us, he armed the locals.

    A bad situation,

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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