Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!

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- Cheetah
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #30 - May 20, 2009, 08:20 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 08:13 PM
In my experience there is little discernable difference between religious selfish bastards and non-religious selfish bastards.

I would say the quality of 'selfish bastardiness' is pretty evenly spread across people of all faiths and none.

So then what is the point of religion?

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #31 - May 20, 2009, 08:41 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on May 20, 2009, 08:20 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 08:13 PM
In my experience there is little discernable difference between religious selfish bastards and non-religious selfish bastards.

I would say the quality of 'selfish bastardiness' is pretty evenly spread across people of all faiths and none.

So then what is the point of religion?

Well for me there is no point.

The bottom line is people are people - regardless of their religion or lack of it - and imho most people are actually good and decent.

I also believe that religion does provide a useful purpose for some people. Comfort, direction, community, friendship, solace, higher purpose, meaning etc...

It can keep many people on the straight and narrow, where they might otherwise turn to alcohol, depression, drugs, violence etc...

(Remember I am talking about 'some' people - not most people)

It's easy to say that people should be able to stand on their feet without the crutch of religion - but many obviously can't.

The danger is of course if people take religion literally or harshly - but in reality the extremists of any religion are a minority - the majority of religious people take the good things from their religion (or make up good things) and their humanity takes precedence.

I may no-longer believe in religion. But I'm not going to go to the extreme of saying religion is all bad and 'most religious ppl are selfish bastards' - that is - quite frankly - a daft statement.
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #32 - May 20, 2009, 08:57 PM

Quote
I may no-longer believe in religion. But I'm not going to go to the extreme of saying religion is all bad and 'most religious ppl are selfish bastards' - that is - quite frankly - a daft statement.

I think its a simplistic statement, and yes an extreme one too. There's an element to us all which is selfish, and yes part of any religion's appeal plays on that - that doesn't mean that religious people are selfish bastards, though.

But from the rest of your post I get that religion is a crutch which fulfills needs which could just as easily be fulfilled without religion - community, direction, higher purpose, etc. Given all the problems religion creates, wouldn't we be better off just scrapping it and finding alternative ways to seek direction and community?

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #33 - May 20, 2009, 09:21 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 08:41 PM
I may no-longer believe in religion. But I'm not going to go to the extreme of saying religion is all bad and 'most religious ppl are selfish bastards' - that is - quite frankly - a daft statement.

I guess I exaggerated a bit. I am just so annoyed and angry about how most religious people think they are going to hell if they doubted or questioned their faith!

...
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #34 - May 20, 2009, 09:23 PM

Quote from: RIBS on May 20, 2009, 09:21 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 08:41 PM
I may no-longer believe in religion. But I'm not going to go to the extreme of saying religion is all bad and 'most religious ppl are selfish bastards' - that is - quite frankly - a daft statement.

I guess I exaggerated a bit. I am just so annoyed and angry about how most religious people think they are going to hell if they doubted or questioned their faith!

I don't think most religious people do think that. On the contrary, most religious people I know doubt and question a lot, but they still seem to think heaven and a happy reunion with their dead relatives is their destination.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #35 - May 20, 2009, 09:31 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on May 20, 2009, 08:57 PM
wouldn't we be better off just scrapping it and finding alternative ways to seek direction and community?

Simple answer: Yes.

Realistically though I doubt you will ever convince so many people to give up something that gives them meaning, purpose and makes them feel safe, secure, and belong.

Particularly when most will have severe 'withdrawal symptoms' and repercussions that may wreck their lives and that of their families, and when many will find nothing to replace that gap they feel or the direction and purpose they had.
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #36 - May 20, 2009, 09:32 PM

Quote from: RIBS on May 20, 2009, 09:21 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 08:41 PM
I may no-longer believe in religion. But I'm not going to go to the extreme of saying religion is all bad and 'most religious ppl are selfish bastards' - that is - quite frankly - a daft statement.

I guess I exaggerated a bit. I am just so annoyed and angry about how most religious people think they are going to hell if they doubted or questioned their faith!

I know, I feel like that at times too. But we should try and keep some perspective and not blame all religious people for the ones that really piss us off
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #37 - May 21, 2009, 04:56 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 09:32 PM
Quote from: RIBS on May 20, 2009, 09:21 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 08:41 PM
I may no-longer believe in religion. But I'm not going to go to the extreme of saying religion is all bad and 'most religious ppl are selfish bastards' - that is - quite frankly - a daft statement.

I guess I exaggerated a bit. I am just so annoyed and angry about how most religious people think they are going to hell if they doubted or questioned their faith!

I know, I feel like that at times too. But we should try and keep some perspective and not blame all religious people for the ones that really piss us off

OK OK self control! GOOOZ FRABA GOOOOOOZ FRAABBAAA!

...
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #38 - May 21, 2009, 08:05 AM

Quote from: RIBS on May 21, 2009, 04:56 AM
Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 09:32 PM
Quote from: RIBS on May 20, 2009, 09:21 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 08:41 PM
I may no-longer believe in religion. But I'm not going to go to the extreme of saying religion is all bad and 'most religious ppl are selfish bastards' - that is - quite frankly - a daft statement.

I guess I exaggerated a bit. I am just so annoyed and angry about how most religious people think they are going to hell if they doubted or questioned their faith!

I know, I feel like that at times too. But we should try and keep some perspective and not blame all religious people for the ones that really piss us off

OK OK self control! GOOOZ FRABA GOOOOOOZ FRAABBAAA!

lol
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #39 - May 21, 2009, 08:15 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 09:31 PM
I doubt you will ever convince so many people to give up something that gives them meaning, purpose and makes them feel safe, secure, and belong.

Particularly when most will have severe 'withdrawal symptoms' and repercussions that may wreck their lives and that of their families, and when many will find nothing to replace that gap they feel or the direction and purpose they had.

It's like a drug addict then, but instead of encouraging them to be weaned off, go into rehab, it's best to let them continue as the repercussions of quitting are worse than the actual addiction, except that with religion, besides believing a few loopy things, the quality of life is actually better for the individual in question, within the religion - which begs the question - are they better off, and who are we to tell them what to do? (suddenly remembers 'Jesus is my friend' by Sonseed) - actually.....shoot them

Ha Ha.
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #40 - May 21, 2009, 08:20 AM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on May 21, 2009, 08:15 AM
Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 09:31 PM
I doubt you will ever convince so many people to give up something that gives them meaning, purpose and makes them feel safe, secure, and belong.

Particularly when most will have severe 'withdrawal symptoms' and repercussions that may wreck their lives and that of their families, and when many will find nothing to replace that gap they feel or the direction and purpose they had.

It's like a drug addict then, but instead of encouraging them to be weaned off, go into rehab, it's best to let them continue as the repercussions of quitting are worse than the actual addiction, except that with religion, besides believing a few loopy things, the quality of life is actually better for the individual in question, within the religion - which begs the question - are they better off, and who are we to tell them what to do?

That's how I feel at times.

I sometimes feel like I am upsetting some good, decent and most important of all - happy - people for no reason.

I think we underestimate ignorant bliss at times.

Quote from: Jack Torrance on May 21, 2009, 08:15 AM
(suddenly remembers 'Jesus is my friend' by Sonseed) - actually.....shoot them

lol... then there's that
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #41 - May 21, 2009, 08:25 AM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on May 21, 2009, 08:15 AM
Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 09:31 PM
I doubt you will ever convince so many people to give up something that gives them meaning, purpose and makes them feel safe, secure, and belong.

Particularly when most will have severe 'withdrawal symptoms' and repercussions that may wreck their lives and that of their families, and when many will find nothing to replace that gap they feel or the direction and purpose they had.

It's like a drug addict then, but instead of encouraging them to be weaned off, go into rehab, it's best to let them continue as the repercussions of quitting are worse than the actual addiction, except that with religion, besides believing a few loopy things, the quality of life is actually better for the individual in question, within the religion - which begs the question - are they better off, and who are we to tell them what to do? (suddenly remembers 'Jesus is my friend' by Sonseed) - actually.....shoot them

If that was true, then I would not be happier after having left the religion? The feeling of being different from others, not being able to make your own decisions and lead your life the way you wish to, time lost, cognitive dissonance, substinence from ordinary foodstuffs and recreational activities as well as the everlasting feeling of guilt for not having done enough for Allah are all are all reasons why I dont believe the quality of life is better.

Most do not follow religion because it makes them happy, they would sooner ditch the rules and regulations, if they knew they had a choice.

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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #42 - May 21, 2009, 08:40 AM

Quote from: IsLame on May 21, 2009, 08:25 AM
Quote from: Jack Torrance on May 21, 2009, 08:15 AM
Quote from: Hassan on May 20, 2009, 09:31 PM
I doubt you will ever convince so many people to give up something that gives them meaning, purpose and makes them feel safe, secure, and belong.

Particularly when most will have severe 'withdrawal symptoms' and repercussions that may wreck their lives and that of their families, and when many will find nothing to replace that gap they feel or the direction and purpose they had.

It's like a drug addict then, but instead of encouraging them to be weaned off, go into rehab, it's best to let them continue as the repercussions of quitting are worse than the actual addiction, except that with religion, besides believing a few loopy things, the quality of life is actually better for the individual in question, within the religion - which begs the question - are they better off, and who are we to tell them what to do? (suddenly remembers 'Jesus is my friend' by Sonseed) - actually.....shoot them

If that was true, then I would not be happier after having left the religion? The feeling of being different from others, not being able to make your own decisions and lead your life the way you wish to, time lost, cognitive dissonance, substinence from ordinary foodstuffs and recreational activities as well as the everlasting feeling of guilt for not having done enough for Allah are all are all reasons why I dont believe the quality of life is better.

Most do not follow religion because it makes them happy, they would sooner ditch the rules and regulations, if they knew they had a choice.

I was basing my answer on the response quoted, but I think rehab for ex muslims etc is not such a bad idea , although no rehab would be big enough for Sonseed. Anyway Islame, I agree, with what you say about how constricted religion makes your choices, but you gotta admit, so many people cannot operate without others telling them what to do, and when it stops - these types will drift aimlessly until they find something/someone else to latch onto and 'show them' - we can't all be born leaders, which I guess is good for some, bad for others. Life is all one great big contradiction it sometimes seems.

Ha Ha.
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #43 - May 21, 2009, 09:29 AM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on May 21, 2009, 08:40 AM
I was basing my answer on the response quoted, but I think rehab for ex muslims etc is not such a bad idea , although no rehab would be big enough for Sonseed. Anyway Islame, I agree, with what you say about how constricted religion makes your choices, but you gotta admit, so many people cannot operate without others telling them what to do, and when it stops - these types will drift aimlessly until they find something/someone else to latch onto and 'show them' - we can't all be born leaders, which I guess is good for some, bad for others. Life is all one great big contradiction it sometimes seems.

Lets call them "the drifters" - those who need direction and will be lost without religion.
Without religion they are left with 2 options - continually adrift, or find another source of focus.

I believe these people are often still looking for direction, even from within the confines of religion so there is not much loss there, and even if we accept that they find a single direction in a religion such as Islam, which has been proven to be dangerous in the wrong hands at times and we accept is a work of fiction, is there much point?

The second option i.e. another focus is not a bad thing, there are a multitude of options including humanism, and this can only breed a cultural richness in society.

So I ask, why restrict our freedom of expression solely for the sake of this 'at risk' group?

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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #44 - May 21, 2009, 09:37 AM

Quote from: IsLame on May 21, 2009, 09:29 AM
I believe these people are often still looking for direction, even from within the confines of religion so there is not much loss there, and even if we accept that they find a single direction in a religion such as Islam, which has been proven to be dangerous in the wrong hands at times and we accept is a work of fiction, is there much point?

So I ask, why restrict our freedom of expression solely for the sake of this 'at risk' group?

Is there much point in so many of the things people focus on? Religion, soap operas, their pets, football, down the pub with your mates - the list is endless. Pointless indeed, but people need distraction from themselves basically - choose the one that suits you and fits in with your own personal ideology I guess.

How are we restricting freedom of expression? I don't feel I am, and if I have to think of anything that does impinge, Islam is a million miles down the list. Number one would have to be this wonderful democracy we live in in the west, or in my case, the UK.

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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #45 - May 21, 2009, 09:53 AM

I think so, you could list a number of additional benefits over religion, even from the religion replacement list you drew up:

e.g. pets - they give love back, and could breed a love for things other than human beings.
- football & soap opera's- will have to come back to you on these ones, but you get my point.

My argument is that if religion was replaced with each person's choices, then a better world would exist. But they have to make the choice themselves, and we are best placed to show and help them make this transition.

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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #46 - May 21, 2009, 11:10 AM

Quote from: IsLame on May 21, 2009, 09:53 AM
I think so, you could list a number of additional benefits over religion, even from the religion replacement list you drew up:

e.g. pets - they give love back, and could breed a love for things other than human beings.
- football & soap opera's- will have to come back to you on these ones, but you get my point.

My argument is that if religion was replaced with each person's choices, then a better world would exist. But they have to make the choice themselves, and we are best placed to show and help them make this transition.

I don't understand how someone who chooses, say football or sex or pets over a doctrine with guidelines on 'how to live in harmony' (however much b/s it may be in practise) would make the world better a place. You pet analogy is a bit weak. It's not real love, it's posessions and in many cases, a subsitute for a child as the truth is often that pets demand less than kids and do as they are told. It's selfish type of love - and hey, I'm talking generally, likewise the bit about pets doing what they're told

Ha Ha.
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Re: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!
Reply #47 - May 21, 2009, 11:31 AM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on May 21, 2009, 11:10 AM
Quote from: IsLame on May 21, 2009, 09:53 AM
I think so, you could list a number of additional benefits over religion, even from the religion replacement list you drew up:

e.g. pets - they give love back, and could breed a love for things other than human beings.
- football & soap opera's- will have to come back to you on these ones, but you get my point.

My argument is that if religion was replaced with each person's choices, then a better world would exist. But they have to make the choice themselves, and we are best placed to show and help them make this transition.

I don't understand how someone who chooses, say football or sex or pets over a doctrine with guidelines on 'how to live in harmony' (however much b/s it may be in practise) would make the world better a place. You pet analogy is a bit weak. It's not real love, it's posessions and in many cases, a subsitute for a child as the truth is often that pets demand less than kids and do as they are told. It's selfish type of love - and hey, I'm talking generally, likewise the bit about pets doing what they're told

There are many benefits to diversity & richness, without religious interference. The majority of the world are theists, whether they feel they can make personal choice in the matter or not. With some of the reasons I gave earlier, I dont think this default position for humankind is the healthiest one nor should it be a de facto position related to what your parents were.

And so I no reason to shy away from informing others that it might not be all what they have built it up to be, even if they are a "drifter".

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