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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?

 (Read 4080 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     OP - June 02, 2009, 05:43 PM

    A little Off-Topic..... but I was wondering.... Why have a council of "ex-Muslims"?
    It suggests one is still defining oneself by Islam, when paradoxically one has claimed to have left it.
    It seems an example of negative identification, Coleridge's dead albatross, a mole upon one's back, etc.
    People need something positive to identify with, something that moves them forward....
    Even a council of atheists doesn't seem to suffice, because it again defines oneself by denying theism, denying G-d.
    If you were to define yourself positively rather than an "ex-Muslim" or "ex-(anything"),what would it be?

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Whe ba a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #1 - June 02, 2009, 05:45 PM

    Semantics. One could argue that by calling yourself a Jew you are defining yourself by all the other belief systems you deny.   
    That's terribly negative, old chap.  Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #2 - June 02, 2009, 05:51 PM

    This issue has been raised before History, and if I remember rightly the response from ex-muslims was that it was necessary to get rid of the stigma around leaving Islam, and that the label ex-muslim is, at least temporarily, helpful in that respect.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #3 - June 02, 2009, 05:51 PM

    Ok, a more serious answer. Don't assume I am giving you this because I am taking myself too seriously though. I just thought you might like it.

    I didn't choose the name but think about it. There is quite a stigma attached to leaving Islam in some circles and it can be difficult for people. If you want to provide a haven for such people then what will they be looking for when they search the internet? Not a vague term that has absolutely no relation to Islam whatsoever. They will search for anything related to leaving Islam. Ex-Muslim makes the point pretty clearly. 

    ETA: Oh and after another jolt of caffeine I remembered something. In Germany where the original council started it was also a dig at the Council of Muslims, who liked to claim to speak for anyone who lived in Germany but had a family background in Islamic countries. Some people decided they would rather speak for themselves so yes, they did choose a name to make this point and it is oppositional.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #4 - June 02, 2009, 06:03 PM

    Why have a council of "ex-Muslims"?
    It suggests one is still defining oneself by Islam, when paradoxically one has claimed to have left it.


    Life is a paradox. For example, why are cars parked in driveways and driven on parkways? What's up with that?!  Geek

    It seems an example of negative identification, Coleridge's dead albatross, a mole upon one's back, etc.


    That's because it IS a negative identification. But negative identification is sometimes necessary when you live in a world full of assumptions. The "Muslim" label is the albatross that's dead but still surgically attached to us by racists and by practicing Muslims. The "Muslim" label is the cancerous mole on our back that we were (mostly) born with or developed through some mutation in our sense of the world. Negative identifications are necessary because we may not believe in allah or the infallibility of mohammed or the inerrancy of the quran anymore, but we are still identified with those who still do, for example in most statistics, by our relatives, due to our names, by immigration officials etc. Many of us are also closeted ex Muslims so for those of us, it's important to know that liberation from the Muslim label is possible if only initially as an "ex Muslim" at this point in history.

    People need something positive to identify with, something that moves them forward....


    Yes, and many of us do identify with other communities too. Just because this forum exists and we're in it, doesn't mean we're not involved in other things too.

    Even a council of atheists doesn't seem to suffice, because it again defines oneself by denying theism, denying G-d.


    Same for atheism. It's important to identify ourselves both in the positive sense - of what we are - and in the negative sense - of what we are not. It's an ongoing and constantly shifting process of becoming truer to yourself. Different people are just at different points in that journey.

    Besides, it's not just your god for whom no evidence exists, atheists say that NONE of the gods have been proven to exist. That includes all those tribal gods of the pantheon that yahweh was part of before his people decided he was the only one, and all the hindu gods, and native american gods, egyptian gods, greek gods, and xenu, with all of whom you as a monotheist are also an atheist.

    If you were to define yourself positively rather than an "ex-Muslim" or "ex-(anything"),what would it be?


    Lately, I like to call myself a Zen Existentialist, but I don't like labels and reserve and practice my right to define myself however I like, or as nothing in particular, depending on where I am in my own learning and journey.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #5 - June 02, 2009, 06:04 PM

    If you were to define yourself positively rather than an "ex-Muslim" or "ex-(anything"),what would it be?
    Respectfully,
    History

    A humanist, but I dont like labels, I am me - thats the best I can do. I identify with principals of liberalism, fairness, etc as well as others from a wide range of ideologies so where do I fit, particularly as my thoughts and beliefs are forever evolving.  

    Others are deists, ex-catholics, ex-hindus etc.  The commonality is that we are all irreligious, and at one time or other had to justify why we no longer believe in God to our family and others.  We may have felt rejected, felt there was something wrong with us, accused of satanic behaviour etc, lost friends, family etc because of our beliefs.

    So that is our shared identity, and it is based on something we all no longer believe in.  Hence it may have negative connotations for you as a religious man, but to us it is a source of pride, that we have managed to escape from its shackles and feel liberated.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #6 - June 02, 2009, 06:09 PM

    I definitely would not have found this forum if I hadn't typed 'ex-muslim' into Google.
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #7 - June 03, 2009, 12:04 PM

    People need something positive to identify with, something that moves them forward....

    "People" or "you"?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #8 - June 03, 2009, 01:18 PM

    People need something positive to identify with, something that moves them forward....

    And that comes from within, and not restricted to some ancient static text.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #9 - June 03, 2009, 02:13 PM

    Nobody here but us Jews.

    There will be no white flag above our door
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #10 - June 03, 2009, 03:25 PM

    Nobody here but us Jews.



    Er, yeah. Huh?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #11 - June 03, 2009, 03:45 PM

    How about this?


    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #12 - June 03, 2009, 03:50 PM

     Afro like it, particularly with the rainbow in the background.  Where did you source it from? 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #13 - June 03, 2009, 03:54 PM

    http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=rainbow&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #14 - June 03, 2009, 04:00 PM

    How about this?

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    Haha I love it.  Afro

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #15 - June 03, 2009, 09:18 PM

    Awesome.  Cheesy  New banner coming up.  parrot

    Of course it'd make it impossible for anyone interested in leaving Islam to find the bloody site but hey, why worry about trivia like that?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #16 - June 06, 2009, 03:37 PM

    I think the name, "Council of ex Muslims" was chosen by Maryam Namazie & other Iranian ex Muslims, I don't think that the active forum members here who helped found this forum would've chosen this name. The reason Namazie & others chose this name is probably because in their original homeland of Iran-apostasy carries the death penalty, such a law called for such a response, to show that people are not scared!  Smiley

    If a country stones adulteresses or drowns  witch witches & proclaims that all adulteresses & witches be killed, the brave response for those who believe in & practice the Wiccan faith or those who think adulteresses don't deserve death would be to proudly proclaim themselves as witches or adulteresses & have their photographs published, while the timid or maybe practical thing would be to leave Wicca or practice it covertly.

    Namazie & the others  did the brave thing!  Afro

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #17 - June 06, 2009, 03:44 PM

    In fact, having seen Maryam in action, you're probably right Rashna  Afro (Reminds me of Gay Pride marches.)

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #18 - June 06, 2009, 06:37 PM

    How about this?

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    or TCSLRWHMPTFOIBSWTPEM for short! Cheesy

    ...
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #19 - June 07, 2009, 09:47 AM

    It should be the Allied Atheist Alliance

    It is more logical, it has 3 As

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Why be a council of "Ex-Muslims"?
     Reply #20 - June 07, 2009, 01:03 PM

    A little Off-Topic..... but I was wondering.... Why have a council of "ex-Muslims"?
    It suggests one is still defining oneself by Islam, when paradoxically one has claimed to have left it.
    It seems an example of negative identification, Coleridge's dead albatross, a mole upon one's back, etc.
    People need something positive to identify with, something that moves them forward....
    Even a council of atheists doesn't seem to suffice, because it again defines oneself by denying theism, denying G-d.
    If you were to define yourself positively rather than an "ex-Muslim" or "ex-(anything"),what would it be?

    Respectfully,
    History


    Yes most of us have said similar things.

    I certainly don't want to be forever defined in relation to what I was in the past, but for who I am now.

    It is however a convenient label at the moment for many reasons. Perhaps the chief reason is that it is the best way of breaking the taboo about leaving Islam and to show others in a similar position to us that they are not alone.
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