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Theme Changer

 Topic: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists

 (Read 4245 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     OP - September 09, 2009, 07:44 PM

    The Saudis better be careful lest the ordinary Muslims find out, that the time before Islam was not Jahiliya.

    Quote
    RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) ? Much of the world knows Petra, the ancient ruin in modern-day Jordan that is celebrated in poetry as "the rose-red city, 'half as old as time,'" and which provided the climactic backdrop for "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade."

    But far fewer know Madain Saleh, a similarly spectacular treasure built by the same civilization, the Nabateans.

    That's because it's in Saudi Arabia, where conservatives are deeply hostile to pagan, Jewish and Christian sites that predate the founding of Islam in the 7th century.

    But now, in a quiet but notable change of course, the kingdom has opened up an archaeology boom by allowing Saudi and foreign archaeologists to explore cities and trade routes long lost in the desert.

    The sensitivities run deep. Archaeologists are cautioned not to talk about pre-Islamic finds outside scholarly literature. Few ancient treasures are on display, and no Christian or Jewish relics. A 4th or 5th century church in eastern Saudi Arabia has been fenced off ever since its accidental discovery 20 years ago and its exact whereabouts kept secret.

    In the eyes of conservatives, the land where Islam was founded and the Prophet Muhammad was born must remain purely Muslim. Saudi Arabia bans public displays of crosses and churches, and whenever non-Islamic artifacts are excavated, the news must be kept low-key lest hard-liners destroy the finds.

    "They should be left in the ground," said Sheikh Mohammed al-Nujaimi, a well-known cleric, reflecting the views of many religious leaders. "Any ruins belonging to non-Muslims should not be touched. Leave them in place, the way they have been for thousands of years."

    In an interview, he said Christians and Jews might claim discoveries of relics, and that Muslims would be angered if ancient symbols of other religions went on show. "How can crosses be displayed when Islam doesn't recognize that Christ was crucified?" said al-Nujaimi. "If we display them, it's as if we recognize the crucifixion."

    In the past, Saudi authorities restricted foreign archaeologists to giving technical help to Saudi teams. Starting in 2000, they began a gradual process of easing up that culminated last year with American, European and Saudi teams launching significant excavations on sites that have long gone lightly explored, if at all.

    At the same time, authorities are gradually trying to acquaint the Saudi public with the idea of exploring the past, in part to eventually develop tourism. After years of being closed off, 2,000-year-old Madain Saleh is Saudi Arabia's first UNESCO World Heritage Site and is open to tourists. State media now occasionally mention discoveries as well as the kingdom's little known antiquities museums.

    "It's already a big change," said Christian Robin, a leading French archaeologist and a member of the College de France. He is working in the southwestern region of Najran, mentioned in the Bible by the name Raamah and once a center of Jewish and Christian kingdoms.

    No Christian artifacts have been found in Najran, he said.

    Spearheading the change is the royal family's Prince Sultan bin Salman, who was the first Saudi in space when he flew on the U.S. space shuttle Discovery in 1985. He is now secretary general of the governmental Saudi Commission for Tourism and Antiquities.

    Dhaifallah Altalhi, head of the commission's research center at the governmental Saudi Commission for Tourism and Antiquities, said there are 4,000 recorded sites of different periods and types, and most of the excavations are on pre-Islamic sites.

    "We treat all our sites equally," said Altalhi. "This is part of the history and culture of the country and must be protected and developed." He said archaeologists are free to explore and discuss their findings in academic venues.

    Still, archaeologists are cautious. Several declined to comment to The Associated Press on their work in the kingdom.

    The Arabian Peninsula is rich, nearly untouched territory for archaeologists. In pre-Islamic times it was dotted with small kingdoms and crisscrossed by caravan routes to the Mediterranean. Ancient Arab peoples ? Nabateans, Lihyans, Thamud ? interacted with Assyrians and Babylonians, Romans and Greeks.

    Much about them is unknown.

    Najran, discovered in the 1950s, was invaded nearly a century before Muhammad's birth by Dhu Nawas, a ruler of the Himyar kingdom in neighboring Yemen. A convert to Judaism, he massacred Christian tribes, leaving triumphant inscriptions carved on boulders.

    At nearby Jurash, a previously untouched site in the mountains overlooking the Red Sea, a team led by David Graf of the University of Miami is uncovering a city that dates at least to 500 B.C. The dig could fill out knowledge of the incense routes running through the area and the interactions of the region's kingdoms over a 1,000-year span.


    More here http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-ml-saudi-hidden-past,0,6600028.story

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #1 - September 09, 2009, 07:50 PM

    There was a program on the other day called The Frankincense trail which showed some of the discoveries and trade routes.
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #2 - September 09, 2009, 08:28 PM

    a 4th or 5th century church, 2.5 thousand year old cities...oh my

    This stuff is so cool, we can learn a lot about the TRUE history in that part of the world.
    I just love this stuff

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #3 - September 09, 2009, 09:02 PM

    Actually, I would feel better if they postponed these projects 'til Islam had matured a bit, getting rid of its fear of history. I do not want to see yet another priceless piece of history go to pieces. Bamiyan was quite enough, thank you very much.

    /Stefan
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeolog
     Reply #4 - September 09, 2009, 10:29 PM

    Actually, I would feel better if they postponed these projects 'til Islam had matured a bit, getting rid of its fear of history. I do not want to see yet another priceless piece of history go to pieces. Bamiyan was quite enough, thank you very much.

    /Stefan


    Sorry to sound like a noob lol, but what is Bamiyan? And didn't Yemen do the same thing? With the San'aa manuscripts, after it was being studied, they kept it a secret and would not allow orientalists to research it any further.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #5 - September 09, 2009, 10:43 PM

    Quote
    In the eyes of conservatives, the land where Islam was founded and the Prophet Muhammad was born must remain purely Muslim. Saudi Arabia bans public displays of crosses and churches, and whenever non-Islamic artifacts are excavated, the news must be kept low-key lest hard-liners destroy the finds.

    "They should be left in the ground," said Sheikh Mohammed al-Nujaimi, a well-known cleric, reflecting the views of many religious leaders. "Any ruins belonging to non-Muslims should not be touched. Leave them in place, the way they have been for thousands of years."

    In an interview, he said Christians and Jews might claim discoveries of relics, and that Muslims would be angered if ancient symbols of other religions went on show. "How can crosses be displayed when Islam doesn't recognize that Christ was crucified?" said al-Nujaimi. "If we display them, it's as if we recognize the crucifixion."


    Man!  Are they insecure about their faith or what?!  wacko

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #6 - September 09, 2009, 11:05 PM

    This could be awesome if they can keep it going and keep the sites from being destroyed by nutters. Potentially it's an utter minefield for conventional Islamic history in that part of the world. I'd love to see what comes out of this.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeolog
     Reply #7 - September 09, 2009, 11:37 PM

    Sorry to sound like a noob lol, but what is Bamiyan? And didn't Yemen do the same thing? With the San'aa manuscripts, after it was being studied, they kept it a secret and would not allow orientalists to research it any further.

    Bamiyan refers to the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan that the Taliban thought fit to blow up.

    I heard that the German scholars would release their findings on the San'aa manuscripts in a few years or so. I can't wait.

    I swear this topic was posted here earlier. That or I read it and didn't share it with ya'll like Paloma did.

    Mada'in (plural of Madinah, cities) Salih are supposed to be the dwellings of the people of Salih, who were really tall and lived a long time, so they had to be built from stone (according to Mo in the ahadith). When I heard they were probably funeral shrines for dead Christians that blew my mind, Mo (or some people Mo heard from) found Madain Salih and came up with the recorded theory, and that it's all BS!  wacko

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeolog
     Reply #8 - September 09, 2009, 11:50 PM

    Bamiyan refers to the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan that the Taliban thought fit to blow up.

    I heard that the German scholars would release their findings on the San'aa manuscripts in a few years or so. I can't wait.

    I swear this topic was posted here earlier. That or I read it and didn't share it with ya'll like Paloma did.

    Mada'in (plural of Madinah, cities) Salih are supposed to be the dwellings of the people of Salih, who were really tall and lived a long time, so they had to be built from stone (according to Mo in the ahadith). When I heard they were probably funeral shrines for dead Christians that blew my mind, Mo (or some people Mo heard from) found Madain Salih and came up with the recorded theory, and that it's all BS!  wacko


    Awesome, I can't wait to see what the German scholars have to say about it! You know whats funny Awais, is that ALL the Muslim websites that talk about Quranic manuscripts NEVER mention the Sana'a manuscripts! They still believe that the ones found in Turkey and Uzbekistan are the oldest. Hmm, I wonder why they never touch upon the Sana'a manuscripts.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #9 - September 10, 2009, 12:14 AM

    I didn't know anything about Sana'a manuscripts until this forum and as for Mada'in Salih and that, one thig the Muslims teach you is that the area was only pagan with Jews living only in Yathrib.  Christians in the peninsula? They don't talk about that!  They  make it sound like there were only a handful in the area.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #10 - September 10, 2009, 12:18 AM

    The place must have been loaded with Christians and Jews. Where else would Mo have got his idea of the trinity as being Old Fella, JC and Mary? That was the belief of the Miriamite sect and they were known to have been in the general area.

    ETA: In fact this would indicate that Mo was only  familiar with Miriamite Christians.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #11 - September 10, 2009, 12:34 AM

    Mary is part of the trinity? I thought it was some spirit type thing.
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #12 - September 10, 2009, 12:42 AM

    The Miriamite sect believed that Mary was part of the Trinity. Other Christians called the Miriamites heretics. You get that. yes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #13 - September 10, 2009, 12:51 AM

    Oh. Where does Mo talk about that version of the trinity?
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #14 - September 10, 2009, 12:54 AM

    Somewhere in that book of his. Something about bunging other peeps up alongside Big Al and him being grumpy about it.  parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeolog
     Reply #15 - September 10, 2009, 12:54 AM

    Never mind, found the Quran verse (5:116)
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/marytrin.htm
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #16 - September 10, 2009, 01:05 AM

    Yep, that's the one. Of course the argument in that article falls flat because it rests on the assumption that the conventional Christian opinion really is God's opinion. For all they know God could be pals with Mary and the old Holy Ghost could be a false idea.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #17 - September 10, 2009, 05:54 AM

    I didn't know anything about Sana'a manuscripts until this forum and as for Mada'in Salih and that, one thig the Muslims teach you is that the area was only pagan with Jews living only in Yathrib.  Christians in the peninsula? They don't talk about that!  They  make it sound like there were only a handful in the area.

    There were Jews and Christians in Najran and other areas. I have to find where I read it, but it was said that they were allowed to live there for some time (decades) even after Mo declared all kuffar should be displaced from the peninsula.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #18 - September 10, 2009, 07:06 AM

    The history of the Sabians in the area would be even more interesting. Since, I think, that is where Muhammed and his posse got a lot of their ideas.

    btw, I've read some stuff from the researchers who worked on the Sanaa manuscript.... http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #19 - September 10, 2009, 07:57 AM

    The history of the Sabians in the area would be even more interesting. Since, I think, that is where Muhammed and his posse got a lot of their ideas.

    btw, I've read some stuff from the researchers who worked on the Sanaa manuscript.... http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran


    The Sana'a thing is unmentioned these days. It's as though it's died a death or something. I only found this as some sort of "objection" to it.

    http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/features99/orientalist.htm
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #20 - September 10, 2009, 09:04 AM

    I wish they would just be normal about it, no hush hush business. can you imagine how rich that are is for archeology in the first place?

    I wish they would let it happen, there is so much truth that could be uncovered, trails that could be linked if only Islam wasn't so retatrded about this.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #21 - September 10, 2009, 09:09 AM

    This is what really gets me, you know if islam and it's sources are watertight, why do they get so up in arms? If they have that much self confidence, they should let these investigations be carried out, including the Sana'a manuscripts and any archeology. The fact that they don't let them carry out these discoveries shows a deep eated insecurity.
  • Re: Risking Islamic ire, Saudi Arabia opens a rich history to foreign archaeologists
     Reply #22 - September 10, 2009, 09:12 AM

    Agreed, infact their fear and control on this type of information makes up a portion of why I left Islam.

    When people hide things you know it's because they are lying, and once you know that, it's hard to take anything they say as a truth.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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