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 Topic: The paradox at the heart of science

 (Read 4327 times)
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  • The paradox at the heart of science
     OP - August 12, 2010, 06:25 PM

    David Hume famously demonstrated that if one is being completely empirical about the matter then no laws of causation hold and any expectation of the future is a leap of faith based on instinct and nature, not reason. Science, being a collection of hypotheses that purport to accurately predict the future based on current empirical evidence, is then undertaking the very task that an empirical epistemology cannot accept.
    How does science get around the problem of induction?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #1 - August 12, 2010, 06:46 PM

    It works. Smiley  It builds planes and computers.  That's all I care about.  No other method of reaching the truth comes any where near science.  Whether it is strictly and absolutely 100% true for all time is something for philosophers to discuss. Smiley

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #2 - August 12, 2010, 06:47 PM

    I don't think it does. It suffers from the same pitfalls as an externalist, empircal system of coherantism(grr lots of words) that if our senses and our technology isn't reliable, then we're all fucked and we actually know nothing. But it's done a good job so far and at the moment has demonstrably correct results, so I'm okay with the philosophy of science as it currently stands.
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #3 - August 12, 2010, 06:48 PM

    Yep that is true, just I think everybody know this, unlike religion science doesn't say it is perfection and cannot be changed.
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #4 - August 12, 2010, 10:05 PM

    Science adapts with new information, religion is stagnent.

    The truth always stands up to scrutiny.
    The more you scrutinise religion the weaker it becomes.
    The more you scrutinise science the stronger it becomes.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #5 - August 12, 2010, 10:17 PM

    depends on who's doing the scrutinizing

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  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #6 - August 12, 2010, 10:22 PM

    Mullah Lilios the Great: Find me someplace soon for a Dawahfest!
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #7 - August 12, 2010, 10:22 PM

    Yep that is true, just I think everybody know this, unlike religion science doesn't say it is perfection and cannot be changed.

    The scientists keep open mind. They are willing to re-examine their theories. The scientific theories are only believed after they are successfully repeated. Science is based on facts which can be proven but the religion is based on beliefs which cannot be proven.

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  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #8 - August 12, 2010, 11:06 PM

    Guys!
    You're going off topic slightly. The question is:

    How does science get around the problem of induction?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k09yrQwFIqo

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #9 - August 13, 2010, 12:36 AM

    occam’s razor. you accept the simplest explanation matching the data. to minimize cost. there’s no reason not to.
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #10 - August 13, 2010, 01:06 AM

    I'm a bit confused. Isn't this simple? Scientist use maths. They create a model using current knowledge, and yeild new mathematical results which suggests certain outcomes, thus they look out for those outcomes or set up conditions for that outcome (if those conditions were a requirement in the model to obtaining that result) then they check if in reality that outcome does occur. If the outcome is the same as predicted by the model, and it's been independently tested and repeated then the steps that yeilded the mathematical result (prediction) is the way that it occured to our understanding.

    The guy in the video asks 'Why there are rules/laws etc?' Because they are, the reason those laws exist for us to 'question' these is because all those laws resulted in the present, right now we are here. If those laws of physics didn't exist, we wouldn't know the present as it is now, they would be different laws of physics and people will be asking 'why are there these laws? etc'

    Those laws are there because we(everything in the universe currently) exist. We understand our surroundings using these laws and models of the universe - these laws are our laws. They are not universal...There maybe an alien civilisation who are much more intelligent than us and have formulated a greater law that encompassess everything, 'The theory of everything'. They may have a different angle on how the world works, because they've experienced it differently, because they don't think like we do.

    Like what Michio Kaku's concept of a fish in the sea or the 2D world stickman concept, or Brian Green's question of can you teach a dog maths? implies - We are limited by our nature.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #11 - August 13, 2010, 06:17 AM

    I think the problem arises Stardust when science is asked to not only make predictions but to make them with the necessity of law. It is a further irony that this necessity of law is not demanded by the empirical evidence but by our own rational contemplation of the event. We expect that if the sun sets in the west that it will rise again in the east but it would be an unworthy scientist indeed who could guarantee the event.
    To expect the sun to rise in the east takes more than just an empirical study, it takes a rational mind bent upon seeing connections even when they cannot be proven - a completely unscientific enterprise.

    You raise an interesting point about maths. I submit to you that maths is a beautiful rulebook of rationality but it is yet an open matter what connection our very human frameworks of logic and number have with the universe at large.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #12 - August 13, 2010, 07:22 AM

    I think the problem arises Stardust when science is asked to not only make predictions but to make them with the necessity of law. It is a further irony that this necessity of law is not demanded by the empirical evidence but by our own rational contemplation of the event. We expect that if the sun sets in the west that it will rise again in the east but it would be an unworthy scientist indeed who could guarantee the event.
    To expect the sun to rise in the east takes more than just an empirical study, it takes a rational mind bent upon seeing connections even when they cannot be proven - a completely unscientific enterprise.

    You raise an interesting point about maths. I submit to you that maths is a beautiful rulebook of rationality but it is yet an open matter what connection our very human frameworks of logic and number have with the universe at large.


    Oh right, I see what you mean. I understand now, this gives the possibility of making that connection with an intuitive basis? Yes, definitely shows the capacity of the human mind there - Takes a spark of that strange thing that's genius.

    Our brain's a simulator of our surroundings, but there's clearly a part of our brain that allows for a 'mess' rather than systematic thinking and it appears in dreams, like if you notice in dreams our minds can defy the common laws of physics, people fly, morph etc. You may have heard great scientists have come up with solutions or are inspired by their dreams. I think that's where creative genius comes from, their minds takes everything and mixes it all up in a pot and lets it explode with all possibilities no matter how crazy the idea seems. And it's not just dreaming, but the state of mind when pondering, reflecting, letting the mind wander and imagination take you away.

    I'll tell you something, I was reading a classial mechanics text book a few days ago (brushing up on my knowledge) and that night I had a dream which was really cool, people were stored in a cryogenic manner and 'relativistically' in these kind of cylindrical disc like containers which were only about 8cm in thickness and about a 1.5m in diameter. So there were people lying (suspended) in these cylinders, but they were compressed longitudinally into an 8cm thickness by some relativistic method (it all made sense in my dream, can't remember now). If you looked at the face of the disc you could see person's head and the depth of the whole thing, but from the side that depth wasn't there. This was in a lab too, I was trying to save these people, with the help of my friend. Ok back to the point...

    I think our minds evolved for making connection and seeing 'patterns' in order to survive. Seeing patterns in nature enables us to maximise gathering of food, and planning ahead etc. I do think you need a sense of intuition in science, but people have this notion that scientists are cold and completely rational people, a lot of the great scientist were pretty eccentric and artistic in character from what I can tell.

    Alot of scientist also became depressed and one even committed suicide - Think that was Neils Bohr. One of them had his nose cut off and ended up with a metallic nose, but I think that may have been an accident.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #13 - August 13, 2010, 07:32 AM

    You raise an interesting point about maths. I submit to you that maths is a beautiful rulebook of rationality but it is yet an open matter what connection our very human frameworks of logic and number have with the universe at large.


    I think maths is beautiful.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #14 - August 13, 2010, 03:43 PM

    Oh right, I see what you mean. I understand now, this gives the possibility of making that connection with an intuitive basis? Yes, definitely shows the capacity of the human mind there - Takes a spark of that strange thing that's genius.

    Our brain's a simulator of our surroundings, but there's clearly a part of our brain that allows for a 'mess' rather than systematic thinking and it appears in dreams, like if you notice in dreams our minds can defy the common laws of physics, people fly, morph etc. You may have heard great scientists have come up with solutions or are inspired by their dreams. I think that's where creative genius comes from, their minds takes everything and mixes it all up in a pot and lets it explode with all possibilities no matter how crazy the idea seems. And it's not just dreaming, but the state of mind when pondering, reflecting, letting the mind wander and imagination take you away.

    I'll tell you something, I was reading a classial mechanics text book a few days ago (brushing up on my knowledge) and that night I had a dream which was really cool, people were stored in a cryogenic manner and 'relativistically' in these kind of cylindrical disc like containers which were only about 8cm in thickness and about a 1.5m in diameter. So there were people lying (suspended) in these cylinders, but they were compressed longitudinally into an 8cm thickness by some relativistic method (it all made sense in my dream, can't remember now). If you looked at the face of the disc you could see person's head and the depth of the whole thing, but from the side that depth wasn't there. This was in a lab too, I was trying to save these people, with the help of my friend. Ok back to the point...

    I think our minds evolved for making connection and seeing 'patterns' in order to survive. Seeing patterns in nature enables us to maximise gathering of food, and planning ahead etc. I do think you need a sense of intuition in science, but people have this notion that scientists are cold and completely rational people, a lot of the great scientist were pretty eccentric and artistic in character from what I can tell.

    Alot of scientist also became depressed and one even committed suicide - Think that was Neils Bohr. One of them had his nose cut off and ended up with a metallic nose, but I think that may have been an accident.


    Excellent post!
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #15 - August 13, 2010, 03:52 PM

    this topic is all over the place. hahahaha. never mind.
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #16 - August 13, 2010, 03:53 PM

    We expect that if the sun sets in the west that it will rise again in the east but it would be an unworthy scientist indeed who could guarantee the event.
    To expect the sun to rise in the east takes more than just an empirical study, it takes a rational mind bent upon seeing connections even when they cannot be proven - a completely unscientific enterprise.


    Maths is indeed used to model our reality. In modelling it, we expect certain constants to hold and assume them to be true. E.g. gravity. When we walk we have a model in our head to know how much gravity will pull us to keep in balance. When we fly on a plane we expect gravity (and many other variables) to hold consistent and true to stay in flight.

    Indeed, one has to have faith that gravity will hold true for the model to hold true. Moreover ... the fact that gravity (and the rest of our reality) can be modelled by maths intrigues me. One has to have faith in their model based on an underlying faith on other constants in our reality. Hence why hedge funds/quantitative analysts can make heavy losses with their "perfect" models, their goalposts are forever changing and economics is too grand to model during extreme black swan like events.
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #17 - August 13, 2010, 04:03 PM

    I think our minds evolved for making connection and seeing 'patterns' in order to survive. Seeing patterns in nature enables us to maximise gathering of food, and planning ahead etc.


    Which is why I think consequentialism makes a lot of sense.
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #18 - August 25, 2010, 12:02 AM

    It works. Smiley  It builds planes and computers.  That's all I care about.  No other method of reaching the truth comes any where near science.  Whether it is strictly and absolutely 100% true for all time is something for philosophers to discuss. Roll Eyes


    It's not science but technology that builds things. Science itself is a paradoxical enterprise, regardless of its results.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #19 - August 25, 2010, 12:51 PM

    It's not science but technology that builds things. Science itself is a paradoxical enterprise, regardless of its results.

    Technology is based on science, but your point is still valid that science has this 'problem of induction' at its core.  I don't think it get's round this paradox, and I think philosophers will ponder over this issue for some time to come. Smiley


    (Sorry, I didn't mean to use the rolleyes smiley ( Roll Eyes ) in my previous post.)

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #20 - March 14, 2011, 11:32 AM

    Talking about paradoxes, here's another one on the infinite halfway points of any single journey.  I only worked it out after cigarette assistance.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u42Y3RbP7JE&feature=related

    & while we are on the subject of philosophy, is it true that Schopenhauer was the 1st Philosopher to be openly & explicitly atheist?

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  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #21 - March 14, 2011, 01:39 PM

    i'll just quote what i posted a while ago when this sorta paradox came up(referring to islame's, not the problem of induction):

    Quote

    ok fuck i can talk for ages about this but this is really a rephrasing of xeno's paradoxes. go read on them, it's a really interesting topic. though mathematically it's quite easy to deal with this, and i'll briefly explain:

    let's say you want to go from point A to B, and the distance between point A and B is 1 unit. as you get closer, you halve the distances accordingly(so you'll move half a unit, then half a unit plus half of the half unit etc.). you can model this as the sum to infinity of the sequence 1/2^n, where n is a positive real number. i cba to explain but the value of that is 1, and it mathematically holds true that you can go from point A to B, whether there is a continuum of infinite points between them or not.



    also, zeno's paradox of motion(or achilles and the tortoise) only really works if space-time is continuous rather than discrete.
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #22 - March 14, 2011, 01:48 PM

    How does science get around the problem of induction?


    Science only deduces what has happened, which is all it needs when it comes to evolution Smiley  As for induction what it does is to say "Given circumstances X we expect result Y" - it doesn't predict circumstances, only the results of circumstances.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The paradox at the heart of science
     Reply #23 - March 14, 2011, 02:51 PM

    not necessarily. inductive reasoning is used to suggest that a statement is true, not to entail the truth of such a statement. whether the statement is about circumstances or results is irrelevant.
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