So the absense of a personal god is an absolute minimum requirement for a concept of true morality. But then a Muslim sufi, who actually embraces a personal god, has the concept of true morality?
Actually he doesn't embrace the concept of a personal God.
Have you read his response?
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9261.msg236342#msg236342"A standard Sufi response would be: I think there is quite a lot of truth in your statement (1/4 of a shahada, in fact). I guess one way of putting it is -- if you have REALLY removed ALL association with the name of God (as the Qur'an sometimes instructs us to), what else of God is left for you?
A big nothing, it would seem. And a big nothing is equivalent to absolute fullness. So atheism certainly does fulfill some of the obligation. That, plus faith/love/submission in interplay with this Nothing/Fullness would be
"true" Islam."
"At the level of morality, I DEFINITELY agree that to be truly "moral", we must
ignore any form of God-as-superego -- any form of God as a judge that stands outside of reality, ticking boxes. The moment we imagine such a "father-figure" creator, we land ourselves in all kinds of trouble. To be truly moral is to understand that, ultimately, judgement is whatever your have chosen your life to be --
judgement IS your life as your free will has determined it, and morality is absolutely internal and constructed by you and you alone. To understand this is to be
self-aware and entirely responsible for the choices we make: we never make them because we will get a "naughty tick" or a "nice tick" from an external observer."
"The implications are quite large for a religious person: it means, for example, that a
constraint on your life to "please" God has ZERO value in and of itself -- the only constraints of value are ones that are taken in conscious "grasping" of the way ALL life (everyones' lives) constitute Love unfolding. When we grasp this, the fires of judgement are "balanced" by the water of love (north balances south) and we get a feeling for this Divine thing that is above all ascription."
It's funny how I (as an atheist) totally agree with a Sufi on these points. There are different ways of obtaining the truth and at its core it seems that Islam, Atheism and Christianity have a lot in common.
Btw have you ever considered the importance of the fact that Jesus died on the cross when it comes to atheism?
The entire point of atheism is the denial of the existence of God. Can you tell me exactly how my belief that there isn't a God in existence could possibly lead me to believe that murder is wrong?
The point here is that morals obtained via a revelation are (almost) always problematic and the very fact that they were acquired via a revelation renders them immoral as soon as they are associated with God.
But the specific morals have to be obtained by us - humans. That's the point of responsibility. And the responsibility is ours, we are not shifting it to an external object like god.
But I thought you just admitted that the Muslim sufi was able to experience true morality... But she wasn't an atheist...
See the first bit in this response.
Topic: Kenan Malik: Shall the religious inherit the Earth?