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 Topic: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?

 (Read 18792 times)
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  • Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     OP - February 11, 2009, 02:40 PM

    Good article originally printed in The Independant:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-why-should-i-respect-these-oppressive-religions-1517789.html

    Quote
    Johann Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?

    Whenever a religious belief is criticised, its adherents say they're victims of 'prejudice'

    The right to criticise religion is being slowly doused in acid. Across the world, the small, incremental gains made by secularism ? giving us the space to doubt and question and make up our own minds ? are being beaten back by belligerent demands that we "respect" religion. A historic marker has just been passed, showing how far we have been shoved. The UN rapporteur who is supposed to be the global guardian of free speech has had his job rewritten ? to put him on the side of the religious censors.

    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights stated 60 years ago that "a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief is the highest aspiration of the common people". It was a Magna Carta for mankind ? and loathed by every human rights abuser on earth. Today, the Chinese dictatorship calls it "Western", Robert Mugabe calls it "colonialist", and Dick Cheney calls it "outdated". The countries of the world have chronically failed to meet it ? but the document has been held up by the United Nations as the ultimate standard against which to check ourselves. Until now.

    Starting in 1999, a coalition of Islamist tyrants, led by Saudi Arabia, demanded the rules be rewritten. The demand for everyone to be able to think and speak freely failed to "respect" the "unique sensitivities" of the religious, they decided ? so they issued an alternative Islamic Declaration of Human Rights. It insisted that you can only speak within "the limits set by the shariah [law]. It is not permitted to spread falsehood or disseminate that which involves encouraging abomination or forsaking the Islamic community".

    In other words, you can say anything you like, as long as it precisely what the reactionary mullahs tell you to say. The declaration makes it clear there is no equality for women, gays, non-Muslims, or apostates. It has been backed by the Vatican and a bevy of Christian fundamentalists.

    Incredibly, they are succeeding. The UN's Rapporteur on Human Rights has always been tasked with exposing and shaming those who prevent free speech ? including the religious. But the Pakistani delegate recently demanded that his job description be changed so he can seek out and condemn "abuses of free expression" including "defamation of religions and prophets". The council agreed ? so the job has been turned on its head. Instead of condemning the people who wanted to murder Salman Rushdie, they will be condemning Salman Rushdie himself.

    Anything which can be deemed "religious" is no longer allowed to be a subject of discussion at the UN ? and almost everything is deemed religious. Roy Brown of the International Humanist and Ethical Union has tried to raise topics like the stoning of women accused of adultery or child marriage. The Egyptian delegate stood up to announce discussion of shariah "will not happen" and "Islam will not be crucified in this council" ? and Brown was ordered to be silent. Of course, the first victims of locking down free speech about Islam with the imprimatur of the UN are ordinary Muslims.

    Here is a random smattering of events that have taken place in the past week in countries that demanded this change. In Nigeria, divorced women are routinely thrown out of their homes and left destitute, unable to see their children, so a large group of them wanted to stage a protest ? but the Shariah police declared it was "un-Islamic" and the marchers would be beaten and whipped. In Saudi Arabia, the country's most senior government-approved cleric said it was perfectly acceptable for old men to marry 10-year-old girls, and those who disagree should be silenced. In Egypt, a 27-year-old Muslim blogger Abdel Rahman was seized, jailed and tortured for arguing for a reformed Islam that does not enforce shariah.

    To the people who demand respect for Muslim culture, I ask: which Muslim culture? Those women's, those children's, this blogger's ? or their oppressors'?

    As the secular campaigner Austin Darcy puts it: "The ultimate aim of this effort is not to protect the feelings of Muslims, but to protect illiberal Islamic states from charges of human rights abuse, and to silence the voices of internal dissidents calling for more secular government and freedom."

    Those of us who passionately support the UN should be the most outraged by this.

    Underpinning these "reforms" is a notion seeping even into democratic societies ? that atheism and doubt are akin to racism. Today, whenever a religious belief is criticised, its adherents immediately claim they are the victims of "prejudice" ? and their outrage is increasingly being backed by laws.

    All people deserve respect, but not all ideas do. I don't respect the idea that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead. I don't respect the idea that we should follow a "Prophet" who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year old girl, and ordered the murder of whole villages of Jews because they wouldn't follow him.

    I don't respect the idea that the West Bank was handed to Jews by God and the Palestinians should be bombed or bullied into surrendering it. I don't respect the idea that we may have lived before as goats, and could live again as woodlice. This is not because of "prejudice" or "ignorance", but because there is no evidence for these claims. They belong to the childhood of our species, and will in time look as preposterous as believing in Zeus or Thor or Baal.

    When you demand "respect", you are demanding we lie to you. I have too much real respect for you as a human being to engage in that charade.

    But why are religious sensitivities so much more likely to provoke demands for censorship than, say, political sensitivities? The answer lies in the nature of faith. If my views are challenged I can, in the end, check them against reality. If you deregulate markets, will they collapse? If you increase carbon dioxide emissions, does the climate become destabilised? If my views are wrong, I can correct them; if they are right, I am soothed.

    But when the religious are challenged, there is no evidence for them to consult. By definition, if you have faith, you are choosing to believe in the absence of evidence. Nobody has "faith" that fire hurts, or Australia exists; they know it, based on proof. But it is psychologically painful to be confronted with the fact that your core beliefs are based on thin air, or on the empty shells of revelation or contorted parodies of reason. It's easier to demand the source of the pesky doubt be silenced.

    But a free society cannot be structured to soothe the hardcore faithful. It is based on a deal. You have an absolute right to voice your beliefs ? but the price is that I too have a right to respond as I wish. Neither of us can set aside the rules and demand to be protected from offence.

    Yet this idea ? at the heart of the Universal Declaration ? is being lost. To the right, it thwacks into apologists for religious censorship; to the left, it dissolves in multiculturalism. The hijacking of the UN Special Rapporteur by religious fanatics should jolt us into rescuing the simple, battered idea disintegrating in the middle: the equal, indivisible human right to speak freely.
    [/quoet]



    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #1 - February 11, 2009, 02:42 PM

    Appearantly, two people in Calcutta have been arrested for publishing this article in a local paper and 'offending Muslim sentiments'.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7883612.stm


    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #2 - February 11, 2009, 02:46 PM

    Nice article  Afro

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #3 - February 11, 2009, 03:00 PM

    Appearantly, two people in Calcutta have been arrested for publishing this article in a local paper and 'offending Muslim sentiments'.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7883612.stm




    The guy who published it has succumbed to apologising for his 'dastardly' deed. What's the world coming to?

    Isn't India supposed to be secular? Why crumble to religious subversion of basic rights?

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #4 - February 11, 2009, 03:03 PM

    Some asshole will always get offended by something, isn't it part of being human. If you don't like it, everyone else should hate it too  Roll Eyes, really

     Cheesy Cheesy

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #5 - February 11, 2009, 03:10 PM

    Secularism in India means that the government tries to appease all religions instead of staying away from religions. The Indian politicians have a very different understanding of the word secularism.

    It is better to remain quiet and have people think that you are an idiot than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #6 - February 11, 2009, 03:31 PM

    Secularism in India means that the government tries to appease all religions instead of staying away from religions. The Indian politicians have a very different understanding of the word secularism.


    QFT.

    Look at this cartoon


    Now in this cartoon replace the radical muslims with indian political leaders, and you see how very scared they are of flaring up communal tensions in india.

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #7 - February 11, 2009, 08:20 PM

    Love that cartoon.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #8 - February 11, 2009, 11:54 PM

    Yep, something like this would look great if it was on the home page of this forum, and help explain a thousand words

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #9 - February 12, 2009, 04:01 PM

    Why is it that the group that seeks/demands tolerance is almost always the most intolerant  Huh?

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #10 - February 12, 2009, 04:09 PM

    Why is it that the group that seeks/demands tolerance is almost always the most intolerant  Huh?

    Because they are tolerantly intollerant?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #11 - February 13, 2009, 03:19 AM

    Why is it that the group that seeks/demands tolerance is almost always the most intolerant  Huh?


    You've nailed it! They don't seek tolerance, they seek submission, and this is true for all groups in general, but in today's world for Islam in particular. Islam literally means "submission", and for a long time Islam had managed to have a system wherein blasphemy=death, women < men, non Muslims< Muslims and had the unquestioned obedience of their dhimmis and the fairer sex. Of course, far away in Christendom, people like Dante in his "Divine Comedy" would freely mock Mohammed, but that sort of news wouldn't reach Muslims, and anyone behaving like that in the lands they ruled would swiftly be  Shooter

    Now times have changed, even with the accident of oil, no Muslim nation has the power,intellectual or technological achievements of the West or Japan, and they're at first perplexed and next enraged in a world where they should've rightly been the chosen people, but Christians, Jews and even polytheists and that most abhorrent of all species ex Muslims like Rushdie are surging ahead, and their age old values are even being challenged or rejected by their "Westernized and corrupted womenfolk" Its the last ditch effort to save a lost cause perhaps... an attempt to get everyone's "submission" all over again in a world which has ceased to work that way.

    P.S. I like Johann Hari's article- it criticises all faiths, and its likely to touch a chord with a Muslim audience, and perhaps force them to rethink their views, whereas a Geert Wilders would only make them feel victimized for being singled out.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #12 - February 13, 2009, 02:52 PM

    true say

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #13 - February 13, 2009, 03:15 PM

    Why is it that the group that seeks/demands tolerance is almost always the most intolerant  Huh?


    You've nailed it! They don't seek tolerance, they seek submission, and this is true for all groups in general, but in today's world for Islam in particular. Islam literally means "submission", and for a long time Islam had managed to have a system wherein blasphemy=death, women < men, non Muslims< Muslims and had the unquestioned obedience of their dhimmis and the fairer sex. Of course, far away in Christendom, people like Dante in his "Divine Comedy" would freely mock Mohammed, but that sort of news wouldn't reach Muslims, and anyone behaving like that in the lands they ruled would swiftly be  Shooter

    Now times have changed, even with the accident of oil, no Muslim nation has the power,intellectual or technological achievements of the West or Japan, and they're at first perplexed and next enraged in a world where they should've rightly been the chosen people, but Christians, Jews and even polytheists and that most abhorrent of all species ex Muslims like Rushdie are surging ahead, and their age old values are even being challenged or rejected by their "Westernized and corrupted womenfolk" Its the last ditch effort to save a lost cause perhaps... an attempt to get everyone's "submission" all over again in a world which has ceased to work that way.

    P.S. I like Johann Hari's article- it criticises all faiths, and its likely to touch a chord with a Muslim audience, and perhaps force them to rethink their views, whereas a Geert Wilders would only make them feel victimized for being singled out.


    Johann Hari has criticized all religions, but only Muslims are incensed. Too many Muslims are living in the 7th century and they just need to get on with the times.

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #14 - January 16, 2010, 01:49 PM

    You've nailed it! They don't seek tolerance, they seek submission, and this is true for all groups in general, but in today's world for Islam in particular. Islam literally means "submission", and for a long time Islam had managed to have a system wherein blasphemy=death, women < men, non Muslims< Muslims and had the unquestioned obedience of their dhimmis and the fairer sex. Of course, far away in Christendom, people like Dante in his "Divine Comedy" would freely mock Mohammed, but that sort of news wouldn't reach Muslims, and anyone behaving like that in the lands they ruled would swiftly be  Shooter

    Now times have changed, even with the accident of oil, no Muslim nation has the power,intellectual or technological achievements of the West or Japan, and they're at first perplexed and next enraged in a world where they should've rightly been the chosen people, but Christians, Jews and even polytheists and that most abhorrent of all species ex Muslims like Rushdie are surging ahead, and their age old values are even being challenged or rejected by their "Westernized and corrupted womenfolk" Its the last ditch effort to save a lost cause perhaps... an attempt to get everyone's "submission" all over again in a world which has ceased to work that way.

    P.S. I like Johann Hari's article- it criticises all faiths, and its likely to touch a chord with a Muslim audience, and perhaps force them to rethink their views, whereas a Geert Wilders would only make them feel victimized for being singled out.


     Afro
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #15 - January 16, 2010, 01:51 PM

    So what can we do to protect Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

    I love how muslims will say we had this 1400 years ago. lol I don't think they have read through it and compared it to Islam.
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #16 - February 11, 2010, 03:10 AM

    I think this is an excellent article, thanks for sharing it  Afro



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #17 - February 11, 2010, 04:06 AM

    OK, thats it. Blackdog gets the Necro of the Year award!!!

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #18 - February 12, 2010, 01:19 PM

    Loved the article.

    Nothing annoys me more when religious groups play the "victim" card.
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #19 - February 14, 2010, 07:16 PM

    Loved the article.

    Nothing annoys me more when religious groups play the "victim" card.


    Too right, Islam really needs to lose its political aspirations.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #20 - February 16, 2010, 08:50 PM

    So what can we do to protect Universal Declaration of Human Rights?


    Wait about 30 years till the oil runs out, then tell the Saudis et al to go fuck themselves.  Or come up with what look like rather tasty reserves around the Falklands and hope the Canadian oil shale reserves are economically viable and tell them to go fuck themselves a lot earlier.

    Allah, The Beneficent, The Merciful, The Perpetually Pissed Off About Some Shit Or Other.
  • Re: Johan Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
     Reply #21 - February 16, 2010, 08:51 PM

    Wait about 30 years till the oil runs out, then tell the Saudis et al to go fuck themselves.  Or come up with what look like rather tasty reserves around the Falklands and hope the Canadian oil shale reserves are economically viable and tell them to go fuck themselves a lot earlier.


    Yes but I worry that maybe we won't be around till then.
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