Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


New Britain
February 17, 2025, 11:51 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 15, 2025, 04:00 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
February 14, 2025, 08:00 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
February 13, 2025, 10:07 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
February 13, 2025, 08:20 PM

German nationalist party ...
February 13, 2025, 01:15 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 13, 2025, 01:08 PM

Russia invades Ukraine
February 13, 2025, 11:01 AM

Islam and Science Fiction
February 11, 2025, 11:57 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
February 06, 2025, 03:13 PM

Gaza assault
February 05, 2025, 10:04 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
February 03, 2025, 09:25 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Are Christians Being Persecuted?

 (Read 7364 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     OP - April 04, 2010, 11:13 PM

    This was just on BBC1 presented by Nicky Campbell (The Big Question) who I really like.

    Blurb:

    For years now, some town halls have been renaming their Christmas Lights Winter Lights Festivals. Hot on the heels, we've had more and more Christians ending up in court, victimised for not being allowed to wear a cross to work or to pray for a patient. Nicky Campbell investigates whether Christians are being discriminated against, as he explores the effect of multi-culturalism.

    I was surprised to find myself agreeing somewhat - not just that Christians are being treated unfairly at times in a country that let's face it has strong historical ties to Christianity and is majority Christian etc.. but things like sacking a Nurse who offered to pray for someone or a flight attendant for wearing a cross is crazy!

    Another point he made is that if one forces religion out that may leave a vacuum for totalitarian ideologies to take over. I'm not sure how true that is, but I myself know from my own experience at loss of faith that it does leave a vacuum that is hard to fill. At least I find it hard to fill.

    They talked about Britain becoming increasingly secular and many losing their faith and the importance of keeping religion's influence to hold a society together and give it identity morality etc... But for me the question I would have liked them to answer is how can religion be of any use if people don't believe in it?

    I was also astonished to see a Muslim "Scholar" - Ziauddin Sardar talk about the necessity for evolving morality and that no religious teaching should be seen as eternal and when Nicky Campbell asked him if he would allow Gay, Lesbian or Transexual Imams he said "Yes!" - I nearly fell off the sofa!


  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #1 - April 04, 2010, 11:18 PM

    Definitely not in the States. 78% of US is Christian. Republicans may scream "Persecution" but they are far from it.

    Out of all the religious groups, its the Unaffiliated (mainly Atheists) that are persecuted in the US
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #2 - April 04, 2010, 11:22 PM

    US is probably a different story - and besides Nicky Campbell rightly concluded that Christians in UK are not being persecuted but many are feeling increasingly marganalised. Now I know many will say that's a good thing - but I'm not so sure. I mean some if it is just silly and may only lead to anger and resentment.

    I mean do we really have to change the name Christmas to Winter Festival as they did in Oxford the year before last! Traditions can be fun and enjoyed by anyone regardless of faith or no faith - and spoiling them for some misplaced good intention, serves no-one.
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #3 - April 05, 2010, 12:14 AM

    I agree with you 100% Hass.

    It's about time we, as a race, a species grew out of our phase of wanting to dominate everyone and everything else and become more aware of the fact that if we all agreed to disagree and accept everyone's differences of belief there would be no need for all these goddamned crusades and jihads.   wacko

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #4 - April 05, 2010, 12:20 AM

    Ameen Right on! Nour  Afro
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #5 - April 05, 2010, 04:59 AM

    This was just on BBC1 presented by Nicky Campbell (The Big Question) who I really like.

    Blurb:

    For years now, some town halls have been renaming their Christmas Lights Winter Lights Festivals. Hot on the heels, we've had more and more Christians ending up in court, victimised for not being allowed to wear a cross to work or to pray for a patient. Nicky Campbell investigates whether Christians are being discriminated against, as he explores the effect of multi-culturalism.

    I was surprised to find myself agreeing somewhat - not just that Christians are being treated unfairly at times in a country that let's face it has strong historical ties to Christianity and is majority Christian etc.. but things like sacking a Nurse who offered to pray for someone or a flight attendant for wearing a cross is crazy!

    Another point he made is that if one forces religion out that may leave a vacuum for totalitarian ideologies to take over. I'm not sure how true that is, but I myself know from my own experience at loss of faith that it does leave a vacuum that is hard to fill. At least I find it hard to fill.

    They talked about Britain becoming increasingly secular and many losing their faith and the importance of keeping religion's influence to hold a society together and give it identity morality etc... But for me the question I would have liked them to answer is how can religion be of any use if people don't believe in it?

    I was also astonished to see a Muslim "Scholar" - Ziauddin Sardar talk about the necessity for evolving morality and that no religious teaching should be seen as eternal and when Nicky Campbell asked him if he would allow Gay, Lesbian or Transexual Imams he said "Yes!" - I nearly fell off the sofa!


    As much as I admire what Ziauddin Sardar has to say, the question is whether there is enough momentum to establish a reform Mosque that stays reformed orientated for the long term rather than it being hijacked by salafi/wahhabists. One can talk about 'reforming Islam' which would be like hitting ones head against a brick wall or acknowledge that maybe the best avenue is to split off and establish a reform minded network of Mosques just as there are reform Jewish synagogues.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #6 - April 05, 2010, 09:59 AM

    Have you heard about Amina Wadud who leads prayers in a Mosque. I never I thought I'd see that happen - so who knows!
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #7 - April 05, 2010, 10:21 AM

    Have you heard about Amina Wadud who leads prayers in a Mosque. I never I thought I'd see that happen - so who knows!


    Yeap, I heard about that, there is a gay Imam in Canada who leads a mixed congregation and there is a imam recently who presided over a same sex marriage. As much as I'd love the wave of liberalism to overwhelm Muslims world wide - I have to be realistic in that it'll be sitting on the fringe, the avant garde of the Islamic world - hopefully some of the ideas will trickle back maybe in the form of "killing gays is bad, we should stop it" at the very least.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #8 - April 05, 2010, 10:31 AM

    I agree with what you say, and I do think it's ridiculous that the nurse got sacked for offering to pray with a patient BUT the Christmas thing was silly. I was literally screaming at the screen when people were saying that Christmas is about Jesus Christ, when it is traditionally a Pagan holiday.
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #9 - April 05, 2010, 10:48 AM

    Typing this whilst watching it on iPlayer...but what the hell...how can they dictate who has Christmas lights up outside there home!? How can lights possibly be offensive?!
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #10 - April 05, 2010, 10:50 AM

    I was literally screaming at the screen when people were saying that Christmas is about Jesus Christ, when it is traditionally a Pagan holiday.


    True, but of course it's not because I agree with the Christian perspective that I agree it should remain "Christmas" - but simply because it's become a tradition and I think Christmas is fun - and no-one takes the Christian stories seriously - not even many Christians!
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #11 - April 05, 2010, 11:09 AM

    True, but of course it's not because I agree with the Christian perspective that I agree it should remain "Christmas" - but simply because it's become a tradition and I think Christmas is fun - and no-one takes the Christian stories seriously - not even many Christians!


    Of course, and for many people Jesus is like a Buddha who went around telling people to be nice to each other - so to keep calling it Christmas is a non-issue Smiley

    Probably explain why Muslims in the UK who celebrate Muhammad's birthday they're so fucking depressed; I too would be depressed if a killjoy is born leading to comedy, music, alcohol and all things good being banned.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #12 - April 05, 2010, 11:21 AM

    Probably explain why Muslims in the UK who celebrate Muhammad's birthday they're so fucking depressed; I too would be depressed if a killjoy is born leading to comedy, music, alcohol and all things good being banned.


     Cheesy
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #13 - April 05, 2010, 11:22 AM

    Yeap, I heard about that, there is a gay Imam in Canada who leads a mixed congregation and there is a imam recently who presided over a same sex marriage. As much as I'd love the wave of liberalism to overwhelm Muslims world wide - I have to be realistic in that it'll be sitting on the fringe, the avant garde of the Islamic world - hopefully some of the ideas will trickle back maybe in the form of "killing gays is bad, we should stop it" at the very least.


    Yep, let's hope so Smiley
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #14 - April 05, 2010, 11:35 AM

    Personally, I love the concept of Christmas, not because of the religious or commercialism (well, maybe a bit for the commercialism).

    I thought it was a bit unfair to suggest that the Russian Revolution was proof that when religion and faith is abolished from a society, it leads to a totalitarian state. That kind of implies that without religion, we are doomed as a society. What I do feel is that it's necessary to tolerate and allow people to practice their beliefs. IMO and from what I remember from history classes on the Russian Revolution, the reason why Socialist Russia was doomed to failure was because people replaced the concept of God with a dictator - a human God, so to speak.
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #15 - April 05, 2010, 11:51 AM

    Personally, I love the concept of Christmas, not because of the religious or commercialism (well, maybe a bit for the commercialism).

    I thought it was a bit unfair to suggest that the Russian Revolution was proof that when religion and faith is abolished from a society, it leads to a totalitarian state. That kind of implies that without religion, we are doomed as a society. What I do feel is that it's necessary to tolerate and allow people to practice their beliefs. IMO and from what I remember from history classes on the Russian Revolution, the reason why Socialist Russia was doomed to failure was because people replaced the concept of God with a dictator - a human God, so to speak.


    The argument that is used is that when a society becomes nihilistic (because of the absence of religion or some sort of philosophy) then it is easier for a charismatic leader to come to power off the back of filling that void which religion or a philosophy once filled. Where the leader offers meaning and purpose to the life of individuals which a religion or philosophy would normally offer.

    The reason why the likes of Stalin, Mao and Kim Il Sung hold sway over the populace is because it taps into the primal need to belong and be part of something bigger than oneself; to find meaning in a group by believing in something larger than oneself - "I have have meaning", meaning that not derived from how much one has or status but merely through believing and being part of something.

    Hence the reason you find those who are poor holding onto their religion; the rest of their life maybe crap but they have at least one thing in their life that gives them dignity and meaning; when you take that away they'll try to look for it elsewhere.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #16 - April 05, 2010, 11:54 AM

    Personally, I love the concept of Christmas, not because of the religious or commercialism (well, maybe a bit for the commercialism).

    I thought it was a bit unfair to suggest that the Russian Revolution was proof that when religion and faith is abolished from a society, it leads to a totalitarian state.


    I agree with you - that comment was just silly. But abolishing religion does leave a vacuum and as yet I'm not completely convinced things like Humanism can properly take it's place. I certainly hope so - but as yet it is unproven.
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #17 - April 05, 2010, 12:00 PM

    I agree with you - that comment was just silly. But abolishing religion does leave a vacuum and as yet I'm not completely convinced things like Humanism can properly take it's place. I certainly hope so - but as yet it is unproven.


    True; so is the alternative organised religion, a re-approach of religious texts as mainstream Judaism and Christianity have done, with the odd bit of interfaith dialogue to keep things rolling nice smoothly. I'm getting involved with reformed/reconstructionist Judaism. It is pretty fulfilling and providing good 'chicken soup for the soul' as you could say.

    Religion is here for the long run, the question is the form that it will take.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #18 - April 05, 2010, 12:19 PM

    I agree religion is here for the long haul - but I don't think that means we simply have to accept that fact. My point is that it can't just be abolished.

    My concern is that it is so ingrained and people depend on it so much - simply abolishing it from society is like forcing a drug addict to go cold turkey - and since we are not talking about one addict but whole societies then this poses a problem.

    Secondly how can it have any use if people don't believe it.

    I could never just go along with a religion when I know it's utter bullshit.

    My concern is only that it has to be admitted that it leaves a vacuum and I think Atheists and Agnostics like myself need to put more thought into how we move towards a society free of religion and it's no use just saying we need to abolish it just like that.

    I think that's foolish, and unhelpful and will only lead to more problems.

    More thought needs to be given to how to move away from religion in a way that will not cause harm and how we fill the vacuum religion leaves.
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #19 - April 05, 2010, 12:59 PM

    I think maybe if there were an international set of 'morals' like the 10 commandments for example, something that's the 'ultimate' law for people to follow, things that that usually gives people a sense of order, a sense which religion provides. Being part of some kind of 'group' (ie religion) gives people a sense of belonging and importance, it's human nature to want to have something defining them with respect to other things, an explination of how we fit into the bigger picture, what our 'true roles' in the universe is.

    I think that role is to simply be yourself, live your life to the fullest, and help people live life to the fullest along your way. A smart man (Professor of middle eastern culture i think it was) told my boyfriend (who then told me) that the meaning of life is to leave the world a better place than before you came, and that could even be a small thing such has volunteering to help the elderly, the disabled, even having children and being a good parent, those are the things that give meaning to life. Living to give is the best way to live in my opinion. You can't always give sometimes you need to work on yourself to be able to work on the world.

    I think we're like machines, we simulate scenarios in our minds of the future, that's why we want a meaning, I think we just recycle back into the universe, we are part of the universe - that's a wonderful meaning to me, even if 'we' don't continue to exist after death in the sense of individual mind and consciousness, but we continue to exist because we are part of everything.

    Perhaps we need books, compliled scientific books that can be used as guidence for people who are trying to understand, maybe we need more philosophical books....

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #20 - April 05, 2010, 02:56 PM

    I think maybe if there were an international set of 'morals' like the 10 commandments for example, something that's the 'ultimate' law for people to follow, things that that usually gives people a sense of order, a sense which religion provides. Being part of some kind of 'group' (ie religion) gives people a sense of belonging and importance, it's human nature to want to have something defining them with respect to other things, an explination of how we fit into the bigger picture, what our 'true roles' in the universe is.

    I think that role is to simply be yourself, live your life to the fullest, and help people live life to the fullest along your way. A smart man (Professor of middle eastern culture i think it was) told my boyfriend (who then told me) that the meaning of life is to leave the world a better place than before you came, and that could even be a small thing such has volunteering to help the elderly, the disabled, even having children and being a good parent, those are the things that give meaning to life. Living to give is the best way to live in my opinion. You can't always give sometimes you need to work on yourself to be able to work on the world.

    I think we're like machines, we simulate scenarios in our minds of the future, that's why we want a meaning, I think we just recycle back into the universe, we are part of the universe - that's a wonderful meaning to me, even if 'we' don't continue to exist after death in the sense of individual mind and consciousness, but we continue to exist because we are part of everything.

    Perhaps we need books, compliled scientific books that can be used as guidence for people who are trying to understand, maybe we need more philosophical books....


    Yes, I agree - there needs to be something solid to replace religion and gives people that sense of meaning and comfort and as a strong defence against totalitarian, fascist or repressive beliefs that would be happy to fill the vacuum religion leaves in people's lives.

    I agree with all you said about leaving the world a better place and be yourself and do good etc... but often people who hold these sorts of vague sorts of beliefs - as I do - often get pushed aside as wishy washy liberals by those with more assertive and dangerous beliefs.

    The second question that I didn't articulate well is for those Christians and other religious people who don't want to see religion receding from society and argue that it does much good. Even though I believe religion is utter nonsense I recognise the good it can do - but the problem is you have to believe it.

    In other words if it is receding it is because (rightly) recognise it is nonsense - what benefit can it do to insist it must remain an important part of society when people on the ground are losing faith in it?

    I suppose they would say they must be made to believe in it again - but that really isn't going to happen.

    Once someone sees religion for what it is, few - if any - will return to it - even for the comfort and company.
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #21 - April 05, 2010, 03:06 PM

    I agree with you - that comment was just silly. But abolishing religion does leave a vacuum and as yet I'm not completely convinced things like Humanism can properly take it's place. I certainly hope so - but as yet it is unproven.


    That is true, and perhaps I'm going back on my point here but I do think that it's important to tolerate religion otherwise we may turn into a totalitarian state. However, it's exceedingly difficult to ensure that everyone is equal in practice. I thought the example they gave in the documentary was quite good, with the Christian lady who didn't want to marry two people of the same sex - and this lead to discrimination against the Christian lady but there was justice for the gay couple.

    There's always going to be a clash against religious doctrine, and vice versa. Even if we do introduce an international set of 'Humanist' morals, does that suggest that those who do not wish to replace their current teachings with those international morals will be put to trial?

    I think it's a lot more difficult to put ideologies like that into practice because you will always be discriminating against one group or another.
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #22 - April 05, 2010, 03:20 PM

    the Christian lady who didn't want to marry two people of the same sex - and this lead to discrimination against the Christian lady but there was justice for the gay couple.


    I thought whats-her-names reply (Chakrabati or something) was a good one, she said there are some rights that clash and one will take precedence over another, and that some ppl once believed that people of different races should not get married, yet their right to believe that was superseded by a more evolved morality.
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #23 - April 05, 2010, 03:29 PM

    However, it's exceedingly difficult to ensure that everyone is equal in practice. I thought the example they gave in the documentary was quite good, with the Christian lady who didn't want to marry two people of the same sex - and this lead to discrimination against the Christian lady but there was justice for the gay couple.

    I think it's a lot more difficult to put ideologies like that into practice because you will always be discriminating against one group or another.

    The problem is that the Christian lady was discriminating others because of her beliefs.
    The whole point of this "intolerance" towards religion is to prevent such public discrimination in the first place. As a private person she still can discriminate whoever she wishes.
    But yeah; you do have a point there.
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #24 - April 05, 2010, 04:31 PM

    There's always going to be a clash against religious doctrine, and vice versa. Even if we do introduce an international set of 'Humanist' morals, does that suggest that those who do not wish to replace their current teachings with those international morals will be put to trial?


    Nope because I was basing it on the fading religions concept, so as more people become atheists and people like Sam Harris manage to change people's minds on religion then there's a vacuum feeling those people may face which wants to be filled and so some form of international morals could help, and these wouldn't have to be laws, maybe something like 'foundations of athesim/agnostism' including dismissal of religions, disbelief/doubt of the existence of a creator, acceptance of evolution...I don't know, it was a try Smiley. Presenting people something solid, written down and organized.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #25 - April 05, 2010, 04:39 PM

    The second question that I didn't articulate well is for those Christians and other religious people who don't want to see religion receding from society and argue that it does much good. Even though I believe religion is utter nonsense I recognise the good it can do - but the problem is you have to believe it.

    In other words if it is receding it is because (rightly) recognise it is nonsense - what benefit can it do to insist it must remain an important part of society when people on the ground are losing faith in it?

    I suppose they would say they must be made to believe in it again - but that really isn't going to happen.

    Once someone sees religion for what it is, few - if any - will return to it - even for the comfort and company.


    Yeah, you can't believe in something you know isn't true. Smiley I used to 'talk to god' cry and beg for him to make me believe, make me pray and be mindful of him daily etc etc many times (before I learnt about the details of islam) I thought I'd find comfort if I were a true follower, I did find some comfort in the idea of god being there even though he wasn't helping me. My idea of god was strange something more like the christian god and that unless i reached out to him he couldn't help me, so he was there wanting to help me, but he couldn't unless I was a good muslim.



    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #26 - April 05, 2010, 04:55 PM

    Yep, you have no idea how many nights I prayed to God and did obediently what (I believed) he told me - all I got was misery heaped upon misery - if there is a God up there then it seems he really doesn't give a shit.

    That's fine - but two can play at that game!

    No doubt Christians will tell me I prayed to the wrong God. If that is true then he is a petty twat as well as cruel.
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #27 - April 05, 2010, 05:13 PM

    lol, - petty twat, but yeah if there is a god and he's that cruel he's not worthy to be worshiped, don't care if he decides to burn me in eternal hell, I'll keep my integrity. My mum was very pious too (at times of trouble) and then things turned out positive (overall) for her that's why it's reinforced in her mind that it must be true and god has helped her so these days she's more strict. She doesn't see the times he hasn't - oh reminds me it's a bit like them 'psychics' who use that trick of getting you to focus on the hits rather than misses and getting you to fill in the blanks so you believe it's them doing the hocus pocus!

    Ah dear, kind of taken it off topic lol parrot

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Are Christians Being Persecuted?
     Reply #28 - April 05, 2010, 05:19 PM

    lol, - petty twat, but yeah if there is a god and he's that cruel he's not worthy to be worshiped, don't care if he decides to burn me in eternal hell, I'll keep my integrity.


    Ameen! Afro
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »