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 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #390 - May 24, 2010, 08:58 PM
    Yes, if you are going to standardize it then do it to all of them.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #391 - May 24, 2010, 09:08 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 24, 2010, 08:44 PM
    btw it's interesting to note that al Razi who was at the forefront of Islamic philosophy, science and medicine - and was well aware of all the works of the other Muslims scholars as well as the Greek scholars of the past - and of course well aware of the claims of the Qur'an - clearly regarded Ptolemy's work in the book Almagest (arabicised as it was translated and used by the Arabs) as being very sound - which it was for the time.

    But it of course put forward a geocentric view of the universe. The Earth in the middle - and everything rotating about the earth.

    Of course I already know modern claims to scientific miracles are nonsense - and always did even when I was a Muslim - but for those Muslims who claim this, then here is a question for them.

    If Al Razi and all the other Muslim scientists and astronomers had absolutely no problem with the Geocentric view of the universe - despite intimate knowledge of the Qur'an.

    Then how can one claim the Qur'an rejects the geocentric model?

    If these guys couldn't see what so many modern idiots who can barely string two Arabic words together can so "plainly" see - then there is something wrong - no?

    lol Wink

    I was thinking that yesterday.  Following the Quran, we have proof the Muslim world believed in the geocentric model & the earth was flat.  

    Also as these were both the popular scientific  understanding before the Quran (funny that isnt it), as Rationlizer pointed out, you would have thought that the Quran would have been at pains to point out & highlight the differences if it indeed was proposing something different.

    Instead it proposes something dubiously similar.  Hmmmm..
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #392 - May 24, 2010, 10:00 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on May 24, 2010, 07:50 PM
    Hassan you might find this video funny!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXk0NzX021c&feature=youtube_gdata


     Cheesy
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #393 - May 25, 2010, 09:58 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 24, 2010, 08:44 PM
    btw it's interesting to note that al Razi who was at the forefront of Islamic philosophy, science and medicine - and was well aware of all the works of the other Muslims scholars as well as the Greek scholars of the past


    I looked him up, I love this quote..

    Quote from: AlRazi
    You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?!


    What a hero Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #394 - May 25, 2010, 10:05 AM

    That's a great quote.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #395 - May 25, 2010, 10:34 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 24, 2010, 06:59 PM
    I wonder what the muslim world would have looked like had we let our scholars speak freely? I wonder what the Arab world would have been like? And the middle-east?

    :(

    It's a crying shame.



    +1

    Islam in my opinion only makes sense if we accept hadith and tafsir as being BS (let's face it - there's no reason to think of them as credible accounts) and accept fully that the Qur'an in it's entirety, perhaps, was always meant to be limited to its time and place - a time and place where it's guidance was needed. Perhaps it's revelation back then to Muhammd could be veiwed as 'miraculous' - but only the people who were present at the time could appreciate this. Muhammad could explain the apparent contradictions to people who wanted to know, as well as any other questions relating to the Qur'an. Then, we are left with the issue of hell for those who directly rejected Muhammad's message and those of the other Prophets back in those times. My views regarding hell have been discussed in detail before - so I won't open that can of worms on this thread..... grin12

    I think humankind has had a moraly ambiguous past, but I think we are at the stage now where, collectively, we can use our greatest gift - our faculties of reason to decide on good/bad and right/wrong. Perhaps this was always God's intention.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #396 - May 25, 2010, 10:58 AM
    Heretic!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #397 - May 25, 2010, 10:59 AM
    Yeah Burn Baby Burn Disco Inferno.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #398 - May 25, 2010, 11:00 AM
    Thankyou AbuY for those words of wisom - I couldnt agree more.  

    Power of reason combined with our experiences learned through history -  humanism  http://www.humanism.org.uk/humanism

    If you truly believe in what you just said, then I only see a difference of % between yours & my stance.
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #399 - May 25, 2010, 11:05 AM
    Secondly I can objectively concur with your thoughts on the Quran particularly after a fresh re-read of it.  The whole book IS an instruction to those around him, its not presented as a message to people belonging to different places or different times.  

    It even talks in real time about certain events as well as telling Muhammed guests to shoo after dinner.

    My only problem with your stance is that afaik the Quran does make several loose references to it being a message for all time.
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #400 - May 25, 2010, 11:15 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 25, 2010, 11:00 AM
    Thankyou AbuY for those words of wisom - I couldnt agree more.  



    wow, someone pinch me - never thought i would hear you say that.
    i'll just go on thinking you were being a sracstic git as always  Wink

    Quote
    If you truly believe in what you just said, then I only see a difference of % between yours & my stance


    I think it's the only thing I can beleive - another type of Islam would just not make sense to me
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #401 - May 25, 2010, 11:18 AM

    AbuY is an ex-Muslim, he just doesn't realise it yet  Grin
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #402 - May 25, 2010, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 25, 2010, 10:34 AM
    accept fully that the Qur'an in it's entirety, perhaps, was always meant to be limited to its time and place - a time and place where it's guidance was needed.

    Can you tell me how you came to this conclusion, have you got quotes from the Quran / other evidence or are you simply throwing it up as a question?
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #403 - May 25, 2010, 11:46 AM
    no i can't say i know this for sure - but if we read the Quran then there are obviously many, many verses which relate to specific situations at the time i.e. ranging from how people should behave in Muhammad's house to what they should do during a specifc conflict situation etc. Our morals, it seems change for the better over time, therefore in addition it would not make sense that any of the moral guidance within the Quran is for all time - it was only perhaps to deal with very specifc situations that reflected the reality of that time.

    If some parts were meant to be specifically for that time and some parts were meant to be for eternity then there would have been some description or some organisation telling us which is which.

    It almost seems natural to draw the conclusion that the Quran was only meant to be for people who were present at that time and place (assuming it is divine and not made-up).
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #404 - May 25, 2010, 11:59 AM
    @Aziz I notice you made some mistakes in the small section of contents you put up.

    a) Chapter 2 is the Methodology of Examining the Qur'an. Not chapter 3.

    b) For some reason you called Chapter 4 "Miracles of the Qur'an" - when I titled it: "The Miraculousness of the Qur'an"   OR better still: "The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an."

    If you say "Miracles of the Qur'an" that means quite a different thing and will allude to all the modern scientific miracle crap.

    This chapter is talking about the traditional view of the Qur'an itself being the Miracle.

    I will see if I can translate the whole Index for you later Smiley
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #405 - May 25, 2010, 12:13 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 25, 2010, 11:46 AM
    no i can't say i know this for sure - but if we read the Quran then there are obviously many, many verses which relate to specific situations at the time i.e. ranging from how people should behave in Muhammad's house to what they should do during a specifc conflict situation etc. Our morals, it seems change for the better over time, therefore in addition it would not make sense that any of the moral guidance within the Quran is for all time - it was only perhaps to deal with very specifc situations that reflected the reality of that time.

    If some parts were meant to be specifically for that time and some parts were meant to be for eternity then there would have been some description or some organisation telling us which is which.

    It almost seems natural to draw the conclusion that the Quran was only meant to be for people who were present at that time and place (assuming it is divine and not made-up).

    so how do you square this against what it says about being clear and being a message for all time?
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #406 - May 25, 2010, 12:16 PM
    In my book that constitutes as either a contradiction or that it indeed is a message for all time. Which means you have all the problems that we have today.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #407 - May 25, 2010, 12:22 PM
    as far as I'm aware although the Qur'an does say that it is a message for 'all of mankind' it does not say that it is a message for all-time. this may indicate that it was not only a message for the people in the Prophet's homeland but it also could be a message for neighbouring lands where the message could potentially spread to during and under Muhammad's prophethood. This obviously does not mean it was meant to be for all time.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #408 - May 25, 2010, 12:24 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 25, 2010, 12:13 PM
    so how do you square this against what it says about being clear and being a message for all time?


    Do you have the quote where it specifically says for all time?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #409 - May 25, 2010, 12:25 PM
    Sorry AbuY, although I loved what you were saying, and however much I would have liked to agree with your safe & comfortable position, I thought it would be disingenuous to say thats what I really thought the prophet of Islam was saying.

    But please do come back to me if you unlock this Holy Grail, as I would love to go round preaching it to the rest of the fanatical Ummah if you figure it out Afro

    ETA: this message goes before your last post, as I have not read it yet and appeared when I clicked submit..
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #410 - May 25, 2010, 12:33 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 25, 2010, 12:24 PM
    Do you have the quote where it specifically says for all time?

    I thought it might be in my blog, but ran a search for 'time' and couldnt find it. 

    I googled it, and this is the best I have come up with so far...

    Quote
    006.019 ..And this Qur'an hath been inspired in me, that I may warn therewith you and whomsoever it may reach.

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #411 - May 25, 2010, 01:24 PM
    OK this is from the Index at the end of the book - the page numbers refer to the original Arabic copy I'm translating from.

    As you can see we have only scratched the surface so far.


    Preface 5

    Introduction 7

    Chapter One - My Journey from Doubt to Belief  15

    1 - The Belief Phase 20

    2 - The Test Phase 26

    3 - The Whirlwind Phase   30

    4 - The Investigation Phase 36

    5 - The Breaking-Off Phase  40


    Chapter Two - The Methodology of Examining the Qur'an   47


    Chapter Three - The Qur'an According to the Belief of Muslims   53

    1 - The Qur'an is the Speech of God    55

    2 - The Qur'an is the Centre for all Schools of Thought & Opinion in Islam    62

    3 - The Linguistic Beauty was the Qur'an's Key to the Hearts of the Pre-Islamic Arabs  64

    4 - The Work of the Exegetes (Mufassirin) of the Qur'an 76

    5 - An Inevitable Revolution


    Chapter Four -  The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an 83

    1 - The Belief of Muslims in the Miraculous Nature (of the Qur'an) 85

    2 - What kind of Miraculousness is it? 91 ( This part contains the sections on Ibn al-Rawandi Abd al Masih al Kindi, and Al Razi.)

    3 - The Eloquence of the Qur'an 110

    4 - Where is the Eloquence of the Qur'an? 164

    5 - Disorder  in the Distribution of Topics 134

    6 - Ambiguity in the Qur'an 140

    7 - Obscurities of the Qur'an 147

    8 - Weakness of the Qur'an 151

    9 - Contradiction is the Distinguishing Feature of the Qur'an 169

    10 - The Qur'an and Science 181

    11 - Everything in the Qur'an is from God 199

    12 - Verses that Have no Meaning 208

    13 - The Rhymed Prose of the Qur'an and the Rhymed Prose of the Soothsayers 218

    14 - The Qur'an and the Belief in the Unseen 228

    15 - Barbarism of the Qur'an 232


    Chapter Five - God in the Qur'an - 235

    Introduction - The Existence of God and the non-Existence of a Likeness 237

    1 - Attributes of God in the Qur'an 252

    2 - God and the Devil 255

    3 - God the Compassionate the Merciful 260

    4 - God is Near and Answers 270

    5 - God is the Best of Sustainers 282

    6 - There is no Help Except from God  294

    7 - God Crams Himself into Everything 300

    8 - God is the Conqueror over his Slaves 316

    9 - With God. Man Must Impose his Law 324

    10 - God. An Ineffective God 330

    Epilogue - 339

    Index - 347
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #412 - May 25, 2010, 01:33 PM
    Awesome! Afro Thanks, Hassan. Will update my document.

    Edit: Btw, which preface text should I use? I think two versions have been copied here.
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #413 - May 25, 2010, 02:45 PM
    Updated: latest PDF file.
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #414 - May 25, 2010, 03:04 PM
    Quote from: billy on May 25, 2010, 11:18 AM
    AbuY is an ex-Muslim, he just doesn't realise it yet  Grin


     Cheesy
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #415 - May 25, 2010, 04:33 PM
    Quote
    006.019 ..And this Qur'an hath been inspired in me, that I may warn therewith you and whomsoever it may reach.


    It appears in this verse that Muhammad himself may warn the people present and whoever else the Qur'an reaches. A possible interpretation is that the Qur'an has been inspired in Muhammad so that he can personally warn those around him and others that the word of the Qur'an spreads to (perhaps in neigbouring cities or neighbouring lands). I think the verse is alluding to a personal interaction of Muhammad with those who have heard the Qur'an. It might even be agrued that this verse in fact supports my veiwpoint.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #416 - May 25, 2010, 04:54 PM
    Wow, just looked at the PDF and I hadn't realized there were that many pages done already!

    Thanks Hassan and Aziz for putting it together so far. I'm useless for the scholarly and arabic side, but I'll make sure to keep a sharp eye while reading in case there are any english related mistakes. Don't think there will be many. Hassan seems to have done a top notch job already!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #417 - May 25, 2010, 04:55 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 25, 2010, 04:33 PM
    It appears in this verse that Muhammad himself may warn the people present and whoever else the Qur'an reaches. A possible interpretation is that the Qur'an has been inspired in Muhammad so that he can personally warn those around him and others that the word of the Qur'an spreads to (perhaps in neigbouring cities or neighbouring lands). I think the verse is alluding to a personal interaction of Muhammad with those who have heard the Qur'an. It might even be agrued that this verse in fact supports my veiwpoint.


    I used to find this verse interesting:

    وَكَذَلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِتُنْذِرَ أُمَّ الْقُرَى وَمَنْ حَوْلَهَا

    "Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an: that thou mayst warn the mother of cities and those around it..." (42:7)

    The "Mother of Cities" is Mecca and 'those around it' are the Nomadic Arabs of the Hijaz. When you add to this that the verse also highlights the fact it was sent in "Arabic" i.e. 'it was sent in Arabic so that you can warn these people who speak Arabic' - all seems to scream out that Muhammad clearly saw his message as being a local one.

    Now that is not to say that as time went on his ambitions didn't grow - but clearly he was at one time looking no further than his own city and the nomadic Arab tribes in the desert around it.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #418 - May 25, 2010, 07:00 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 25, 2010, 04:33 PM
    It appears in this verse that Muhammad himself may warn the people present and whoever else the Qur'an reaches. A possible interpretation is that the Qur'an has been inspired in Muhammad so that he can personally warn those around him and others that the word of the Qur'an spreads to (perhaps in neigbouring cities or neighbouring lands). I think the verse is alluding to a personal interaction of Muhammad with those who have heard the Qur'an. It might even be agrued that this verse in fact supports my veiwpoint.

    Yes, I think you are probably right.  Ive had another quick look and cant find much.  tbh I am a bit surprised that it doesnt say in the Quran that its a book for all time.
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #419 - May 26, 2010, 11:45 AM
    So where does the reference for the Quran being a book for all-time come from?

    Hadith? If so, which ones especially?
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
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