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 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 315277 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #990 - June 25, 2010, 11:56 AM

    @Aziz - great work on adding the Appendix  Afro

    There are, however, a few things I suggest you change regarding the link to the quote from the Sira of Ibn Ishaq and the Appendix itself.

    1. You added the link at the end of the whole passage. I suggest that it should be at the start. Right after it says this: 9. After relating the story of the People of the Cave

    2. You used numbers and continued on from the author's last footnote. (His last one was 46 and so you made it 47.) I suggest not confusing our notes with the author's original footnotes. Instead we should have a separate list - perhaps identified by Roman Numerals. i.e. i ii iii iv v vi etc...

    3. The note says:

    See appendix A for the story.

    However the Appendix doesn't recount the story of the People of the Cave. It is quoting Ibn Ishaq on the reasons the story was revealed. So I suggest the note should be:

    See Appendix i for Ibn Ishaq's account of the Asbabu-Nuzul (Reasons for Revelation) of this story.

    4. Finally the Appendix itself should then be changed to:

    Appendix i

    Ibn Ishaq's Account of the Asbab al-Nuzul (Reasons for Revelation) for The story of the "People of the Cave".


    I hope that was clear - if not let me know Smiley
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #991 - June 25, 2010, 02:05 PM

    Thanks, I'm working on it. I think I'll give the odd footnote the asterisk symbol (*).

    The title of Appendix A should be this: Ibn Ishaq’s Account of “The People of The Cave”
    It shouldn't be too long. Is it okay?

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #992 - June 25, 2010, 04:22 PM

    Ibn Ishaq’s Account of “The People of The Cave”


    It's not Ibn Ishaq's account of the People of the cave - in fact it says nothing about the story - it is Ibn Ishaq's account of why the story was revealed to Muhammad. There is a whole branch of Qur'anic tafseer called "The Reasons for Revelations" (Asbab al-Nuzul) which gather various hadoth and comments of companions as to why this or that verse or sura was revealed.

    According to this narration the verses about the people of the cave and thul qarnayn and the Ruh (spirit/soul) were revealed coz the Jews sent the Quraysh to ask Muhammad three questions.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #993 - June 25, 2010, 04:23 PM

    I love Asbab al-Nuzul. Nothing will make you apostate faster.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #994 - June 25, 2010, 04:26 PM

    The reason I think it's an important reference to quote is because the author of the book confines himself to internal criticism of the Qur'an - but I think it is also v interesting to note that according to hadith Muhammad was asked these questions to prove his prophethood - but only answers with:

     "Some say this, some say that but I'm not telling you the real number!"
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #995 - June 25, 2010, 04:29 PM

    I love Asbab al-Nuzul. Nothing will make you apostate faster.


     lol... I know, some are really funny  grin12
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #996 - June 25, 2010, 04:35 PM

    Quote
    I love Asbab al-Nuzul. Nothing will make you apostate faster.

    lol... I know, some are really funny  grin12


    This bloody  Asbab al-Nuzul is a CANARD against Prophet's real Islam.

     These guys are Jews pouring juice on Quran/Sunnah and hadith .  That fellow Uri Rubin should be put UNDER BLACK BURKA until he stops spreading this hate against islam.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #997 - June 25, 2010, 04:36 PM

    Grin

    I have to google Uri Rubin now.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #998 - June 25, 2010, 04:37 PM

    Hassan, is the PDF better now?

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #999 - June 25, 2010, 04:38 PM

    lol... I know, some are really funny  grin12


    I have tried to find more info on the Internet but not been able to.

    I feel like the best stuff about Islam, the most controversial hasn't been translated to English, or if it has it's been removed.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1000 - June 25, 2010, 04:43 PM

    Grin

    I have to google Uri Rubin now.


    http://www.urirubin.com/

    That fellow trying his best to influence my favorite site where I read tafseer http://www.altafsir.com/

    Rascals are everywhere .. All are going against Allah and his messenger Mr. PBUH.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1001 - June 25, 2010, 04:44 PM

    Mr. PUBic Hair.

    What do you mean influence? Add more stuff?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1002 - June 25, 2010, 04:48 PM

    You seen the amount of stuff they have in the Arabic section of that site compared to the English one? There's gotta be some interesting stuff in it
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1003 - June 25, 2010, 04:50 PM

    Hassan you once said something about a tafsir or some other Islamic work that had been translated to English and then removed. The stuff was apparently explosive. Do you remember what it was? Sorry for being so vague, I read it in a post when I first joined.

    @Z yeah  yes I still have the Guillaume translation to read :/
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1004 - June 25, 2010, 04:54 PM

    Hassan, is the PDF better now?


    Yes, thanks, Aziz  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1005 - June 25, 2010, 05:12 PM

    Hassan you once said something about a tafsir or some other Islamic work that had been translated to English and then removed. The stuff was apparently explosive. Do you remember what it was? Sorry for being so vague, I read it in a post when I first joined.


    Not sure about explosive - but I think you may be referring to the video I did on the opening verses of Sura Tahrim (66:1-5) that talk about the prophet making something Haram on himself to please his wives. God says don't make what I made halal for you - haram! etc...

    The matter is clearly a serious matter and one where all concerned were very distressed and the language is very strong.

    The traditional tafseers have the main reason for this being Muhammad sleeping with his Egyptian slave-girl Maryam al-Qibtiyya on Hafsa's day and that she and Aysha ganged up on Muhammad to reproach him. He said I will make her Haram for me...

    Another reason given in some tafseers (alongside the Maryam one) is that he ate honey that made his breath smell and Hafsa and Aysha reproached him so he said I'll make it Haram for me.

    The general view of the traditional tafseers was that the Maryam incident was the correct one.

    However in modern English tafseers - including the abbreviated Ibn Kathir English translation - you wont find this story - despite the fact that Ibn Kathir devotes several pages to it.

    Basically modern Muslims have decided to discard that Maryam story because it is embarrassing - and all go for the "Honey" Explanation.

    But just have a look at the verses and ask yourself - was this about eating/drinking honey?

    066.001
    YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    066.002
    YUSUFALI: Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.

    066.003
    YUSUFALI: When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his consorts, and she then divulged it (to another), and Allah made it known to him, he confirmed part thereof and repudiated a part. Then when he told her thereof, she said, "Who told thee this? "He said, "He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)."

    066.004
    YUSUFALI: If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up.

    066.005
    YUSUFALI: It may be, if he divorced you (all), that Allah will give him in exchange consorts better than you,- who submit (their wills), who believe, who are devout, who turn to Allah in repentance, who worship (in humility), who travel (for Faith) and fast,- previously married or virgins.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1006 - June 25, 2010, 05:28 PM

    No doubt the honey one doesn't make sense.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1007 - June 25, 2010, 05:32 PM

    defo, the honey story was always a bit silly since the you obviously get the impression the Qur'an was talking about something much more serious. IMO the Qur'an could have been refering to something that is not even in any tafsir etc.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1008 - June 25, 2010, 05:36 PM

    OK Abu then what is the point of having it in the Quran? Since I would like to know what it means then?

    I mean with the Quran being an eternal stone tablet and everything I'm sure it's something important.

    The Great God of the Universe that created physical laws saw it fit to have it etched in stone.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1009 - June 25, 2010, 05:39 PM

    i already told you dumbo, it was only meant for people in 7th century Arabia who knew exactly what the context was, and if they were unsure, they had Muhammad to explain it. obviously when we look at the Qur'an without a clue about the context of the verses, the verses seem a bit odd to say the least - perhaps this could be expected

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1010 - June 25, 2010, 05:41 PM



    I mean with the Quran being an eternal stone tablet and everything I'm sure it's something important.




    the Qur'an itslef makes no such claim

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1011 - June 25, 2010, 05:42 PM

    defo, the honey story was always a bit silly since the you obviously get the impression the Qur'an was talking about something much more serious. IMO the Qur'an could have been refering to something that is not even in any tafsir etc.


    In which case we must place these verses amongst the incomprehensible verses.

    What really irritates me though is the the way many Muslims have decided to dishonestly strike out what they don't like from the tafseers and keep the bits they do - or make up new even more absurd meanings, based solely on their own whims.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1012 - June 25, 2010, 05:44 PM

    i already told you dumbo, it was only meant for people in 7th century Arabia who knew exactly what the context was, and if they were unsure, they had Muhammad to explain it. obviously when we look at the Qur'an without a clue about the context of the verses, the verses seem a bit odd to say the least - perhaps this could be expected


    Grin
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1013 - June 25, 2010, 05:57 PM

    In which case we must place these verses amongst the incomprehensible verses.

    What really irritates me though is the the way many Muslims have decided to dishonestly strike out what they don't like from the tafseers and keep the bits they do - or make up new even more absurd meanings, based solely on their own whims.


    Yep. Although i've never took hadith seriously i was never so dismissive of tafsir since they almost by definition are opinions of men and nothing more. i have my own opinion and therefore my own 'tafsir' about certain things - but of course i fully recognise they are only my own personal opinions. i treat all tafsir this way whether classical or modern - makes no difference to me. hadith on the other hand claim to be truthful accounts - and i have never accepted this.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1014 - June 25, 2010, 06:02 PM

    The general view of the traditional tafseers was that the Maryam incident was the correct one.

    However in modern English tafseers - including the abbreviated Ibn Kathir English translation - you wont find this story - despite the fact that Ibn Kathir devotes several pages to it.


    It's in the translation of Tafsir Ibn Kathir that I've got, along with the ahadith that relate to it. I think it's been struck out of the Darussalam translation entirely, though.

    The translation I've got does say, however:

    But it is more right to adopt the opinion that those Holy Verses were revealed on the occasion where the Messenger of Allah P.B.U.H. forbade honey to himself...

    Some ahadith are cited to substantiate this. Still, who the hell would make up a story like the incident with the slave girl when what really happened was, comparatively speaking, so completely innocuous?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1015 - June 25, 2010, 08:47 PM

    The translation I've got does say, however:

    But it is more right to adopt the opinion that those Holy Verses were revealed on the occasion where the Messenger of Allah P.B.U.H. forbade honey to himself...


    That is an incorrect and misleading translation and it made me go and get my copy of Ibn Kathir - so I hope you appreciate it  grin12

    The section that your quote is from comes after two pages of talking about Mariya al-Qibtiyya - it then quotes a Ghareeb Hadith and comments on it. This is the whole part:

    "Ibn Abbas said this verse <the verse> came down concerning the woman who offered herself to the prophet, (i.e. Zainab) and this saying is Ghareeb (unsound narration) while the Sahih (sound narration) is that, that came in his prohibiting of Honey as Bukhari said concerning this verse <isnad> that the prophet used to drink honey at the house of Zainab bint Jahsh... "

    عن ابن عباس قال نزلت هذه الآية " يا أيها النبي لم تحرم ما أحل الله لك " في المرأة التي وهبت نفسها للنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وهذا قول غريب  والصحيح أن ذلك كان في تحريمه العسل كما قال البخاري عند هذه الآية ثنا إبراهيم بن موسى أنا هشام بن يوسف عن ابن جريج عن عطاء عن عبيد بن عمير عن عائشة قالت كان النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يشرب عسلا عند زينب بنت جحش

    In other words it is not saying the story of the honey is the correct one but that the previous narration was unsound and the sound narration was what Bukhari related.

    Ibn Kathir's actual view comes at the end, after he has related the whole of both tafseers. (He relates the one about Maryam first and the Honey one second!) and then says regarding the honey narrations (which are split between those who say Zainab gave the honey and those who say Hafsa gave the honey) and he says:

    "This narration has it that Hafsa is the one who gives the honey to drink and its (related) by way of Hisham ibn Urwa from his father from his aunt from Aysha and (in the narration) from ibn Jurayj from Ata from Ubayd ibn Umayr from Aysha it is Zainab who gave him (Muhammad) the honey to drink and Aysha and Hafsa were the ones who remonstrated him and  God knows best and it is said that both happened and that is not unlikely, but that they could be the reason for the revelation of this verse is questionable - and God knows best"

    هذا السياق فيه أن حفصة هي الساقية للعسل وهو من طريق هشام بن عروة عن أبيه عن خالته عن عائشة وفي طريق ابن جريج عن عطاء عن عبيد بن عمير عن عائشة أن زينب بنت جحش هي التي سقته العسل وأن عائشة وحفصة تواطأتا وتظاهرتا عليه فالله أعلم . وقد يقال إنهما واقعتان ولا بعد في ذلك إلا أن كونهما سببا لنزول هذه الآية فيه نظر والله أعلم

    Al-Sabuni who gathered all the classical tafseers even quotes Ibn Kathir to support his view that the Mariya al-Qibtiyya narration is the best one!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1016 - June 25, 2010, 09:52 PM

    That is an incorrect and misleading translation and it made me go and get my copy of Ibn Kathir - so I hope you appreciate it  grin12

    The section that your quote is from comes after two pages of talking about Mariya al-Qibtiyya - it then quotes a Ghareeb Hadith and comments on it. This is the whole part:

    "Ibn Abbas said this verse <the verse> came down concerning the woman who offered herself to the prophet, (i.e. Zainab) and this saying is Ghareeb (unsound narration) while the Sahih (sound narration) is that, that came in the prohibiting of Honey as Bukhari said concerning this verse <isnad> that the prophet used to drink honey at the house of Zainab bint Jahsh... "

    عن ابن عباس قال نزلت هذه الآية " يا أيها النبي لم تحرم ما أحل الله لك " في المرأة التي وهبت نفسها للنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وهذا قول غريب  والصحيح أن ذلك كان في تحريمه العسل كما قال البخاري عند هذه الآية ثنا إبراهيم بن موسى أنا هشام بن يوسف عن ابن جريج عن عطاء عن عبيد بن عمير عن عائشة قالت كان النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يشرب عسلا عند زينب بنت جحش

    In other words it is not saying the story of the honey is the correct one but that the previous narration was unsound and the sound narration was what Bukhari related.

    Ibn Kathir's actual view comes at the end, after he has related the whole of both tafseers. (He relates the one about Maryam first and the Honey one second!) and then says regarding the honey narrations (which are split between those who say Zainab gave the honey and those who say Hafsa gave the honey) and he says:

    "This narration has it that Hafsa is the one who gives the honey to drink and its (related) by way of Hisham ibn Urwa from his father from his aunt from Aysha and (in the narration) from ibn Jurayj from Ata from Ubayd ibn Umayr from Aysha it is Zainab who gave him (Muhammad) the honey to drink and Aysha and Hafsa were the ones who remonstrated him and  God knows best and it is said that both happened and that is not unlikely, but that they could be the reason for the revelation of this verse is questionable - and God knows best"

    هذا السياق فيه أن حفصة هي الساقية للعسل وهو من طريق هشام بن عروة عن أبيه عن خالته عن عائشة وفي طريق ابن جريج عن عطاء عن عبيد بن عمير عن عائشة أن زينب بنت جحش هي التي سقته العسل وأن عائشة وحفصة تواطأتا وتظاهرتا عليه فالله أعلم . وقد يقال إنهما واقعتان ولا بعد في ذلك إلا أن كونهما سببا لنزول هذه الآية فيه نظر والله أعلم

    Al-Sabuni who gathered all the classical tafseers even quotes Ibn Kathir to support his view that the Mariya al-Qibtiyya narration is the best one!


    Cheers, Hassan  Afro

    And I'm not surprised. It's only understandable that Muslims should try to make Muhammad's character look better than it really was.

    If I'm ever going to know for sure what the original works of exegesis say, I'll just have to learn Arabic. Translations are never reliable, it seems.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1017 - June 25, 2010, 09:58 PM

    And on the subject of randomness in terms of the arrangement of Qur'anic verses, I noticed this when reading through Surat al-Tahreem:

    [66:8]
    Believers, turn to God in sincere repentance; it may be that your Lord will acquit you of your evil deeds, and will admit you into gardens underneath which rivers flow. Upon the day when God will not degrade the Prophet and those who believe with him, their light running before them, and on their right hands; and they say, ’Our ’Lord, perfect for us our light, and forgive us; surely Thou art powerful over everything.’

    [66:9]
    O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them; their refuge shall be Gehenna -- an evil homecoming!

    [66:10]
    God has struck a similitude for the unbelievers -- the wife of Noah, and the wife of Lot; for they were under two of Our righteous servants, but they betrayed them, so they availed them nothing whatsoever against God; so it was said, ’Enter, you two, the Fire with those who enter.’

    What the hell has waging Jihad against the unbelievers and hypocrites got to do with anything else in this surah?  wacko
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1018 - June 25, 2010, 10:10 PM

    It's a sublime and miraculous eloquence, but you are deaf, dumb and blind and wandering in manifest error. (Lotsa luck burning in Hell that the Merciful One has prepared for you!)
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1019 - June 25, 2010, 10:36 PM

    @ Zebedee and Hassan

    According to the *honey* account, apparently Aisha and Hafsa were jealous of Zainab because the prophet used to secretly stay for a long time in her house (without the other women knowing). So both women agreed to trick the prophet and ask him whether he drank Maghafir so that he'd admit the truth that it was honey (not Maghafir) and that he was spending all this extra time with Zainab. So that's what happened but he told Hafsa not to tell the others of this extra time he spent with Zainab so others won't feel jealous too... so comes in the revelation from God telling him of the scheming of the two ladies... Read the whole thing in Hadith. (3 Hadith in Bukhari and 1 Hadith in Muslim, all telling the same story of extra time at Zainab's). Here are the links:

    http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=zainab+honey&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

    http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=zainab+honey&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

    so they meant to trick him so that he says: "oh, no it's not Maghafir, I've been drinking honey at Zainab's". They hoped that while he explained to them that they're wrong, he'd divulge the piece of information they're interested in... staying extra time at Zainab's.. he did just that and promised not to even drink honey again... but he asked Hafsa for secrecy, in return, so that other wives won't feel jealous too.

    Anyway, I find the Maria's account more credible (but I could be wrong). In any case, if orthodox Sunni Muslims today highlight the honey account as the most likely one, then 3 Hadiths, in prophet Bukhari's book, and 1 in prophet Muslim's, support their view and thus they can hardly be considered dishonest when they think it's the honey account that is more credible.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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