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 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #180 - May 04, 2010, 10:16 PM
    Just got an email from Maryam who got an email from someone on this thread who is publicising this effort in the name of CEMB. While she is supportive of this and says that she would like it published on the website once it is done - could they please refrain from sending emails that give the impression it is an official CEMB project until it has been approved by the management committee.

    Perhaps word the email to make it clear that it is a task being undertaken by members of the CEMB forum - until it has been approved by the CEMB itself.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #181 - May 05, 2010, 09:49 AM
    Just took a look at chapter 4 and it's bloody massive! Looks meaty though and gets to the nitty gritty of the problems with the so called "miraculous nature" of the Qur'an.

    Will see if I can make a start sometimes this weekend.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #182 - May 05, 2010, 09:52 AM
    Is the book really that good Hassan?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #183 - May 05, 2010, 10:27 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 05, 2010, 09:49 AM
    Just took a look at chapter 4 and it's bloody massive! Looks meaty though and gets to the nitty gritty of the problems with the so called "miraculous nature" of the Qur'an.

    Will see if I can make a start sometimes this weekend.


    Yes Hassan, that was the Chapter I liked most. The author really disects it and expose all the weaknesses and the discripencies that are always overlooked by Muslims everytime. He talked about:

    1) Miracles of the Quran, which he found none.
    2) Poetry in the Quran, where he thinks many other poems are as good or even better.
    3) Defects in the language of the Quran, where he points each and every one of them.
    4) Ambiguity of the quran, which is obviously a lot.
    5) Weakness of the Quran.
    6) Contradictions of the quran. He lists many examples.
    7) Science in the Quran and or the lack of.
    8 ) Nonesense in the Quran, which he says is full of it. He gives examples.

    Actually, the good part of the book is how he gives examples from the quran, so when one reads it (at least when in Arabic), one will no doubt see what the author is pointing, unless you are blind or just being arrogant.

    I really enjoyed reading this book, and wish to read it a second time. So that I memorize some examples that might be useful when talking to my Hardcore Muslim friends.

    I rate this book 5 stars. Afro
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #184 - May 05, 2010, 10:29 AM
     dance
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #185 - May 05, 2010, 10:29 AM
    I'm impressed with what I've read so far. In fact I identify very much with him and recognise many of my own thoughts and journey in his words. It's clear he was a very genuine and sincere Muslim and speaks with real empathy and understanding of Muslims and Islam.

    So far so good!  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #186 - May 05, 2010, 08:55 PM
    I foolishly thought I'd sit down this eve and do a little translating while keeping an eye on the Spurs score (I don't have sky) but boy! This was quite heavy going - lots of references to historical trends and scholars works - but here's the first bit of Chapter 4.

    Again my usual disclaimer that I have not thoroughly checked it so there will be mistakes.

    Chapter 4

    Part 1

    The Belief of Muslims in the Miraculous Nature (of the Qur'an)

    "Say: If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support."  (17:88)

    The Qur'an is indeed a unique book. It is prose and yet unlike prose. It is poetry and yet unlike poetry. It is metered and rhyming and yet it is not like the (standard) meters and rhymes. So what is it then? It is the Qur'an and that's it!

    Perhaps the best description of the Qur'an is that which the late Dean of Arabic literature, Dr. Ta Ha Hussain said: "The Genres of Arabic expression are poetry, prose and qur'an." For the Qur'an is not poetry - no! and it is not prose. It is a type of speech that is of a singular nature, unique of it's kind. It's qur'an! For that reason they (the scholars) are united in the opinion that what is called the miraculous nature of the Qur'an is it's amazing composition.

    Miraculousness (al-'Ijaaz) in the Arabic language comes from 'To Make Unable", in other words it attributes the inability to another and a miracle is called a miracle because mankind is unable to replicate it.

    The (scholarly) discipline of the Miraculous Nature (of the Qur'an) was a discipline that was an innovation in religion. This discipline reached it's full maturity in the 4th century of the Hijra when it became independent and grew into a discipline in it's own right. Today it's a fundamental tenet of faith that no-one can dare throw doubt on.  Beginning in the 4th century of the Hijra the (discipline) of the Miraculous Nature became indelibly written in stone.

    Despite that there were those who cast doubt on this belief, going right back to the first centuries of Islam.

    Perhaps the first of these was al-Ja'd ibn Dirham, tutor to Marwan ibn Muhammad the last of the Umayyad Caliphs. For he was the first one to openly express skepticism of the Qur'an, and refutation of it and rejection of things in it. He said that it's eloquence was not a miracle and that people can do the like of it and better than it when no-one had before him had said such as that. Marwan - who was nicknamed the donkey - used to follow his view to the extent that he was linked to him and called "Marwan al-Ja'di" (1).

    During the mid Abbasid period this view (that the Qur'an was not a miracle) spread along with other views of a similar nature, such as the view that the Qur'an was created as well as it's opposition (those who believed it was not created, but eternal - on the "Protected Tablet"). The first to go to great lengths in that was 'Isa ibn Sabih, known as Abu Musa al Mirdar, who was one of the Mu'tazilite scholars and amongst the leading ones. He was called the Monk of the Mu'tazilites and differed from the rest of the Mu'tazilites in all of the issues that concern us here. Saying about the Qur'an that people are able to produce the like of this Qur'an as regards eloquence, and composition and rhetorical beauty (2).

    Similar to that (view, that others could produce the like of the Qur'an) was the view taken by his contemporary, Ibrahim Ibn Sayyar Ibn Hani' Al-Nazzam, who expounded many of the works of the philosophers and combined their ideas with the ideas of the Mu'tazilites (3). But he differed from his colleagues in 13 matters, while Al-Baghdadi increased that number to 21.

    If Al-Shahrastani labels the areas Al-Nazzam differed from his colleagues, "issues", these "issues" become "shameful scandals" in the view of Al-Baghdadi! So the 9th issue that Al-Shahrastani reproaches Al-Nazzam about; becomes "The 25th shameful scandal of his shameful scandals" according to the wording of Al-Baghdadi: "His view regarding the miraculous nature of the Qur'an that it is to do with the fact it predicts events of the past and future, and to do with the the fact it diverted the causes of opposition and prevented the Arabs - by force and incapacitation - from being concerned with (trying to imitate) it, because if he (Allah) let them then they would have been able to produce a Sura (chapter) the like of it in beautiful rhetoric, eloquence and composition" For mankind is able to produce the like of this Qur'an, but Allah diverted them from doing that and prevented them by placing hinderance and incapacity within them to do so. This is "The View of Divertion."

    (Hassan: In other words Al-Nazzam's view was that the miraculous nature of the Qur'an was NOT that it could not be imitated - in his view it could easily be imitated - but that Allah prevented the Arabs from doing so!)

    (1) See: Mustafa Sadiq Al-Rafi'i, "The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an and the Prophetic Rhetoric." Page 160.

    (2) Al-Baghdadi, "The Difference Between the Groups" Page 164-165 ; and Al-Shahrastani, "The Book of Sects and Creeds", 1 / 68-69.

    (3) Al-Shahrastani, 1 / 35-45.

    (4) Previous Reference 1 / 56-57

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #187 - May 05, 2010, 09:05 PM

    The more of these translations I read, the more important this book (and project) seems.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #188 - May 05, 2010, 09:06 PM
    Yes agreed.

    thank you guys once more may my pet hamster be sacrificed for your cause

    Here he is worried.



    Don't worry habib, you will go out as a shahid and be granted paradise inshallah.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #189 - May 05, 2010, 09:10 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 05, 2010, 09:06 PM
    Don't worry habib, you will go out as a shahid and be granted paradise inshallah.


    Ameen, Ya Rabb!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #190 - May 05, 2010, 09:11 PM
     Cheesy
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #191 - May 05, 2010, 09:12 PM
    Quote from: billy on May 05, 2010, 09:05 PM
    The more of these translations I read, the more important this book (and project) seems.


    Bill, I promise it will get more interesting.
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #192 - May 05, 2010, 09:13 PM
    It's like watching Godfather for the first time, now I'm anticipating the baptizing scene.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #193 - May 05, 2010, 09:14 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on May 05, 2010, 09:12 PM
    Bill, I promise it will get more interesting.


     Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #194 - May 05, 2010, 09:15 PM
    Hassan, you make me so ashamed of my laziness  Embarrassed
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #195 - May 05, 2010, 09:25 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on May 05, 2010, 09:15 PM
    Hassan, you make me so ashamed of my laziness  Embarrassed


    No, don't feel like that - this is a massive task and we can just do bits as and when we can - no pressure.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #196 - May 05, 2010, 09:28 PM
    The thing is, I can do more. I have loads of free time. It's just that I'm lazy. Very lazy. That and I'm addicted to sitcoms.  Cry
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #197 - May 05, 2010, 09:44 PM
    I can relate to lazy - believe me lol  Afro

    besides translating can be a real pain in the bum lol
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #198 - May 05, 2010, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on May 05, 2010, 09:28 PM
    The thing is, I can do more. I have loads of free time. It's just that I'm lazy. Very lazy. That and I'm addicted to sitcoms.  Cry


    Tsik Tsik, bad AI, bad bad AI, don't forget the casue, the casue me dear AI.... LOL
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #199 - May 05, 2010, 09:59 PM
    i actually do sincerely think it's a useful thing you guys are doing, so keep up the good work. hopefully when the translation is finished and if it gets published, it can be discussed by experts in Arabic lexicography and history (yes, i don't mean zakir naik, lol). a rounded discussion regarding the work would be good.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #200 - May 05, 2010, 10:13 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 05, 2010, 09:59 PM
    i actually do sincerely think it's a useful thing you guys are doing, so keep up the good work. hopefully when the translation is finished and if it gets published, it can be discussed by experts in Arabic lexicography and history (yes, i don't mean zakir naik, lol). a rounded discussion regarding the work would be good.


    It would be nice to think that it could get published in it's original Arabic in Arab countries too! Where the author wanted it to be published. I wish Muslims would grow up - and start realising that suppressing intelligent and honest debate only harms them and plays into the hands of the extremists.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #201 - May 05, 2010, 10:22 PM
    +1
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #202 - May 05, 2010, 10:23 PM
    let's all just love each other  far away hug
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #203 - May 05, 2010, 10:25 PM
    lol  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #204 - May 05, 2010, 10:52 PM
    one love, one people  Afro
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #205 - May 05, 2010, 11:07 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdB-8eLEW8g&feature=youtube_gdata
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #206 - May 09, 2010, 09:26 PM
    Next bit. (btw this chapter is massive - almost half the book! So don't expect this to be finished any time soon - just doing tiny bit by tiny bit when I have time.)

    Chapter 4

    Part 1: The Belief of Muslims in the Miraculousness (of the Qur'an) cont....

    Now we ask what is the nature of the Miraculousness of the Qur'an?

    The scholars of Arabic - especially the scholars of language and elegant speech - are completely united that the Qur'an is in itself a miracle. That its miraculousness is in it's wonderful composition, in the eloquence of it's expressions, the astounding nature of it's clear speech, its unique style that is unlike any other style, it's captivating verbal impact, that reveals itself in its acoustic structure, and linguistic beauty, and its sublime artistry.

    Al-Qadi Abu Bakr (d. 1148) said the nature of the miraculousness of the Qur'an is in it's composition, arrangement, and structure. That it's beyond all types of standard composition in the language of the Arabs, departing from their styles of oration and for this reason they were unable to oppose it. The composition of the Qur'an had no model to imitate, nor any antecedent to emulate and It's unreasonable (to think) that the like of it could happen by chance. He said: 'the miraculousness  of Qur'an is much clearer in some parts while in some parts it is more subtle, and more obscure. (5)

    Al Imam Fakhr al-Din (d. 1210) said the nature of the miraculousness is the eloquence, and unique style, free from all defects.

    al-Zamalkani (d. 727h) said the nature of the miraculousness derives from the composition that's unique to it and is not haphazard. In that it's words are finely balanced in construction, in meter and the reason behind the way it's been put together, in meaning. So that every type occurs in the best possible place for it's pronunciation and meaning.

    And Ibn Atiyya said: The correct (opinion) and the one that laymen and experts are agreed upon in regard to its miraculousness is that it is it's composition and the soundness of it's meanings. and in the arrangement of the eloquence of it's wording. And that is because Allah's knowledge surrounds all things and surrounds all (aspects) of language. So since the organisation of the wording in the Qur'an is something his knowledge completely surrounds, i.e. each word perfectly suits the one it follows and each meaning is elucidated after another and that is the case from beginning to end of the Qur'an and man is encompassed by ignorance, bewilderment and perplexity  and it is self-evident that no human being encompasses all that, then as a result the arrangement of the Qur'an is furthest epitome of eloquence and for that reason one destroys the saying of those who claim that the Arabs were able to replicate the like of it or that they were 'diverted' from doing so. The correct (opinion) is that it is not within the ability of anyone ever! (6)

    (5) Quoted from the previous reference, p. 122

    (6) All thee quotes are taken from the previous reference, p. 133 with some slight edits in wording but not meaning.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #207 - May 10, 2010, 01:22 AM
    Ive posted the arabic version on scribd, so it will save anyone having to upload it onto their desktops - you can access it from here  http://www.scribd.com/doc/31124503/Imam-Abbas-AbdulNoor-becomes-an-exmuslim-My-Ordeal-With-the-Quran-Arabic

    I will post the English version once/if (fingers crossed) we manage to get it done
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #208 - May 10, 2010, 01:57 AM
    I've just read through this thread. Awesome job to the translators and everyone involved. Looking forward to the next parts. Makes me wish I could read/understand arabic. D;

    Maybe I'll learn someday.
    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #209 - May 10, 2010, 06:24 AM
    Thanks Hassan! Wow this sounds exciting, he's going through all the scholars saying the Quran is miraculous and then refute their arguments.

    Islam hadn't spread worldwide by this time, I havn't heard this argument in a while. Although if you ask arabs they will tell you it is indeed miraculous. But is it really? I mean there are other scholars who refute this notion and say although there are some very nice verses there are also some very horrid verses both in composition and in subject matter.
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