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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 313785 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #270 - May 12, 2010, 10:20 AM

    It seems likely he is dead by now, given his age. Though we can't be sure that details such as age etc... are real or something he made up to cover his tracks.


    Please check out my previous thread about an Ex-Muslim named Kamel Alnajjar

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10142.0

    Hassan, please read few pages from his book, I some how think he could be the mysterious "Abbas Abdulnoor". I used to have his email, as I have emailed him before and he was very kind to immediately reply to my letter. I will try to find his email and see if he can help us with finding the true identity of Abdulnoor.

    Unless he is the one, and would rather not say...  Roll Eyes

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #271 - May 12, 2010, 10:58 AM

    No-one knows who he is and one guy says that he made a search of people from Damanhour and cannot find a trace of him and says this is strange - particularly since he claims to have been written books and studied at Azhar and worked in a Hospice etc...

    But it seems to me that the first thing one would do if contemplating such a book is to hide one's true identity.

    Yes his critique definitely stands on it's own regardless of who he really is.

    imo he is (was) a Muslim - I have a radar for fake stuff - and frankly everything about what I've read so far tells me it's genuine.


    yep, surely it's the content of the book that matters rather than who he actually was?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #272 - May 12, 2010, 11:17 AM

    yep, surely it's the content of the book that matters rather than who he actually was?


    Yup, I read the whole book in Arabic, and I am confident to say that, no other book have dissected and analyzed the Quran like this one did. I looked at the examples he gave, and said no way that coulb be true, then when opened the Quran and found the mistakes and contradictions the author talked about, I was like: Wow, how can one miss this? I realized that Muslims in general idolized the book, just because they were told to do so, not because they read it and found a supra natural proof in it.

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #273 - May 12, 2010, 11:20 AM

    That's how faith works.  Wink

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #274 - May 12, 2010, 12:30 PM

    That's how faith works.  Wink


    Yes indeed!  Cry

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #275 - May 12, 2010, 01:00 PM

    Please check out my previous thread about an Ex-Muslim named Kamel Alnajjar

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10142.0

    Hassan, please read few pages from his book, I some how think he could be the mysterious "Abbas Abdulnoor". I used to have his email, as I have emailed him before and he was very kind to immediately reply to my letter. I will try to find his email and see if he can help us with finding the true identity of Abdulnoor.

    Unless he is the one, and would rather not say...  Roll Eyes


    Detectives R'Us

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #276 - May 12, 2010, 01:30 PM

    Please check out my previous thread about an Ex-Muslim named Kamel Alnajjar

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10142.0

    Hassan, please read few pages from his book, I some how think he could be the mysterious "Abbas Abdulnoor". I used to have his email, as I have emailed him before and he was very kind to immediately reply to my letter. I will try to find his email and see if he can help us with finding the true identity of Abdulnoor.

    Unless he is the one, and would rather not say...  Roll Eyes



    Will check it out when I have time. tbh I'm less interested in who wrote this book than what the book says. I doubt it is an Arab/Coptic Christian or Jewish Arab as some Muslims on the Arab forum suggest. It just doesn't have that 'feel' of someone who comes from that background. It just doesn't set off my alarm bells. Whoever wrote this book, I feel comes from a Muslim background and knows the Qur'an inside out and lived Islam.

    I do suspect that the personal details given are all fake - and frankly I don't blame the guy.

    I could be wrong of course, but if it is by a Christian or Jewish Arab, then it is a tremendous feat, because they must have totally immersed themselves in the whole Muslim mentality not to mention scholarship to such a high degree that I have never experienced Christian Arabs capable of without giving themselves away.

    But even if the latter is the case, it doesn't make any difference to what the book says. As far as I've read - it hits the nail on the head and reflects many of the things I myself have thought and observed - and more!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #277 - May 12, 2010, 01:35 PM

    Will check it out when I have time. tbh I'm less interested in who wrote this book than what the book says. I doubt it is an Arab/Coptic Christian or Jewish Arab as some Muslims on the Arab forum suggest. It just doesn't have that 'feel' of someone who comes from that background. If it is then it is a tremendous feat, because they must have totally immersed themselves in the whole Muslim mentality not to mention scholarship to such a high degree that I have never experienced Christian Arabs do. It just doesn't set off my alarm bells.

    On the contrary, whoever wrote this book, I feel comes from a Muslim background and knows the Qur'an inside out and lived Islam.

    I do suspect that the personal details given are all fake - and frankly I don't blame the guy.

    But most important is what the book says and it is - as far as I've read - spot on and reflects many of the things I myself have observed - and more!


    Exactly how I saw the book dear Hass. Afro

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #278 - May 12, 2010, 02:14 PM

    Detectives R'Us

     Afro

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #279 - May 13, 2010, 01:08 PM

    Hassan, have you checked the overview I have sent you?

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #280 - May 13, 2010, 01:09 PM

    Had a quick look - it looks fine to me - I've sent it to Maryam and leave it to her if she wants to edit it in any way.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #281 - May 13, 2010, 01:14 PM

    Oh gr8, thnx o0

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #282 - May 13, 2010, 11:10 PM

    Chapter 4 (cont...)

    Part 2

    What kind of Miraculousness is it?

    Now we say: Indeed the belief in the miraculousness of the Qur'an is no more than a myth amongst myths. Indeed! The Qur'an is not amongst the secrets of the gods. It doesn't bear the slightest relation to divine inspiration that takes it outside the (normal) activity of (human) history. It's a purely human achievement that follows the norms of humanity in strength and weakness, correctness and error, agreement and contradiction, cohesion and disparity, consistency and inconsistency, uniformity and disarray.

    The direct result of all that is that the Qur'an is a very ordinary book. For that reason it is necessary to remove it from its safe refuge, outside Human history and return it to the world of people. After that it will no longer be storehouse for timeless wisdom nor a divine book protected from error that no falsehood can approach it from either front or behind.

    In that way, it and it's time and it's context become part of the historical process of the area which has witnessed, and continues to witness every day, comparable books that influenced these books and are influenced by it and ignite the interaction between them.

    Every star-struck believer, regardless of whether he is from the common people or their elite or even from the elite of the elite, relies (on the belief) that "in the Qur'an, due to beauty of the words and the splendour of the style especially, no-one can attain the phrases, style and meanings. (9)

    And that challenge, that Allah announced in the Qur'an for Man & Jinn to bring the like of this Qur'an,

    "Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support." (17:88)

    is absolutely true, but it doesn't apply only to the Qur'an, it also applies  to every great work. For just as Man & Jinn are not able to produce the like of the Qur'an, likewise they cannot produce the like of that which Plato brought, nor Al Jahiz, nor Al Tawhidi, nor Dante, nor Goethe, nor Shakespear...

    Great works always contain the fingerprints of their authors. It is a part of their identity. So if it is impossible to imitate these fingerprints, then it is also impossible to imitate these works. Each one is a unique weave that has no match in the works of man and thus establishes it's character. Despite this each one is not free from flaws and errors and defects that the critic can be aware of. Likewise the Qur'an. In the work of al Jahiz and Al Tawhidi is that which far surpasses what is in some of the verses of the Qur'an, as we shall see, but who dares criticise the Qur'an?

    Indeed the Muslims of the Middle Ages during the Golden Age, had more freedom than Muslims in this time. If not then why does no-one dare, like Al Sarakhsi and Ibn Rawandi and Al Razi, to defame the most holy symbol of Muslims, the valuable of valuables that gives meaning to their existence and bestows on them hope and immortality.

    All efforts and active forces in the Islamic world have been enlisted to repel the "Enemies of Allah". Criticism of Allah's book has been met with a reception that varies from forbearance & irritation, between insult & vilification and between suppression & temperance, and 'dealing' with antagonists ranged between chit-chat & bluster, to finding excuses and haphazard solutions - or as I myself call it, "Patching" (the holes) - to save the word of Allah from the clutches of the deniers, the astray and the ones who lead others astray. Between hitting and slapping, punching and physical eradication, seeking closeness to Allah through the blood of that insolent fabricator of lies about Allah, denier of his signs, so that he be a warning to his like, the forces of the Devil, "and Satan indeed found his calculation true concerning them, for they followed him..." (34:20) them and the seducers. Then they topple into the Fire of Hell all of them together (10). They are the ones who Allah curses, and those who curse, curse them!!

    Indeed opposing the Qur'an was a natural process that arose with the rise of Islam, but the new religion killed it in the cradle, or at least was able to silence it for a while. That was after the astounding victory that it achieved in the arabian peninsular and the area surrounding it. Indeed it was such a tremendous breakthrough that it temporarily diverted attention away from that which interplays in it of (opposing) forces and deep contradictions that don't appear on the surface except in moments of quiet and stability or at the times of fitna.

    For that reason it is not strange that this process started anew or returned to the open when the Umayyad dynasty began to disintegrate and draw towards it's inevitable end. For indeed Islam injured the pride of many of the leaders of the heretics (Zanadiqa) - and they were the Shu'ubiyyah (Hassan: A popularist movement against the the supremacy of the Arabs) - and nationalist pride overtook them and led them to fanaticism for the religion of their fathers such as Zoroastrianism and Manichean dualism and hatred towards Islam that ended their glory and destroyed their dreams in lasting and noble life. A group of poets who belonged to "The League of the Mujjan" (Hassan: A group of libertine/dissident intellectuals such as Bashar ibn Burd and Abu Nuwas)  joined them, fleeing from the constraints of religion and seeking a life of freedom with no restrictions or regulations.

    Then came the Abbasid period where the Shu'ubiyya movement was active side by side with the Heretical movement (Harkatu z-Zandaqa) and the attacks on Islam intensified and disparagement of it's holy of holies - the Qur'an. And at the head of this movement were poets, satirists, and disaffected thinkers, the most famous of them: Salih Ibn Abdul Quddus, and Abdul Karim ibn Abu Al 'Awjaa', and Abu 'Isa al Warraq and Bashar ibn Burd, and his adversary Hammad Ajrad, and Iban ibn Abdul Hamid al Lahiqi, and Ibn Muqaffa', and (his son?) Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Muqaffa', and Abd al Masih al Kindi who we shall say a few words about in a bit to show the participation of non-Muslims in the attack on the Qur'an...

    But the most famous of all these without argument is: Abu al Hussein Ahmad ibn Yahya ibn Ishaq al Rawandi, and Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakariyya al Razi, under both of whom the movement of Heretics reached it's climax and extent of its maturity and we will discuss now each of them briefly, enough to clarify what we mean.


    (9) Muhammad Abu Zahra, "The Greatest Miracle."

    (10) Allusion to what is related in Sura al Shu'araa' 26/94.


  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #283 - May 13, 2010, 11:34 PM

    awesome

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #284 - May 13, 2010, 11:53 PM

    Yet more fascinating stuff, Hassan.

    Thanks a lot for all the work you put into this  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #285 - May 13, 2010, 11:55 PM

    It makes me want to write a book " The History of Heresy in Islam" or something like that. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #286 - May 13, 2010, 11:59 PM

    We really must get this book published once it's done - it will be a real eye opener for many.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #287 - May 14, 2010, 12:01 AM

    Everybody's thinking of writing a book dance

    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #288 - May 14, 2010, 12:02 AM

    We really must get this book published once it's done - it will be a real eye opener for many.

    I don't think we can. Wouldn't that be against copyright laws?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #289 - May 14, 2010, 12:04 AM

    I don't think we can. Wouldn't that be against copyright laws?


    Since the author is unknown and the book banned (in Arab countries) who will claim copyright?

    The only objections will be the usual "It insults Islam" - but the contents of the book are scholarly and well argued - I'm sure it can be published.

    We are talking about the English version in the West.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #290 - May 14, 2010, 12:21 AM


    This is so exciting!


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #291 - May 14, 2010, 06:41 AM

    Awsome work Hassan!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #292 - May 14, 2010, 07:20 AM

     far away hug
    Since the author is unknown and the book banned (in Arab countries) who will claim copyright?

    The only objections will be the usual "It insults Islam" - but the contents of the book are scholarly and well argued - I'm sure it can be published.

    We are talking about the English version in the West.


    +1 also the author wished clearly as you will read later to have his book published although he doubts it and clearly expressed his fear that the book will get burned by Muslims. So we will fulfill his dreams if it gets published. We should aim at an open source copyright status that is open for all to copy and redistribute. Afro

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #293 - May 14, 2010, 07:25 AM

    We need to make this book (both Arabic and English versions) viral.  Tongue

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #294 - May 14, 2010, 08:27 AM


    And that challenge, that Allah announced in the Qur'an for Man & Jinn to bring the like of this Qur'an,

    "Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support." (17:88)

    is absolutely true, but it doesn't apply only to the Qur'an, it also applies  to every great work. For just as Man & Jinn are not able to produce the like of the Qur'an, likewise they cannot produce the like of that which Plato brought, nor Al Jahiz, nor Al Tawhidi, nor Dante, nor Goethe, nor Shakespear...

    Great works always contain the fingerprints of their authors. It is a part of their identity. So if it is impossible to imitate these fingerprints, then it is also impossible to imitate these works. Each one is a unique weave that has no match in the works of man and thus establishes it's character. Despite this each one is not free from flaws and errors and defects that the critic can be aware of. Likewise the Qur'an. In the work of al Jahiz and Al Tawhidi is that which far surpasses what is in some of the verses of the Qur'an, as we shall see, but who dares criticise the Qur'an?



    Afro

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #295 - May 15, 2010, 06:52 AM

    hmm I'm sorry I don't think I can proceed with the translation for the chapter that i was assigned. for one my vocab knowledge is not enough to allow me to translate, and there are some arabic words that im unable to understand based on the context of the book. i read my whole chapter and i have tried but i failed

    i'm really disappointed at myself at this point, i'm really sorry. i wanted to help and be a participant in the community.
     Cry Cry Cry

    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #296 - May 15, 2010, 08:17 AM

    hmm I'm sorry I don't think I can proceed with the translation for the chapter that i was assigned. for one my vocab knowledge is not enough to allow me to translate, and there are some arabic words that im unable to understand based on the context of the book. i read my whole chapter and i have tried but i failed

    i'm really disappointed at myself at this point, i'm really sorry. i wanted to help and be a participant in the community.
     Cry Cry Cry


    Don't worry, translation is not easy. Hassan has very good experience, and IA has excellent English. Translation if not done properly, it might misrepresent the original text.

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #297 - May 15, 2010, 09:31 AM

    hmm I'm sorry I don't think I can proceed with the translation for the chapter that i was assigned. for one my vocab knowledge is not enough to allow me to translate, and there are some arabic words that im unable to understand based on the context of the book. i read my whole chapter and i have tried but i failed

    i'm really disappointed at myself at this point, i'm really sorry. i wanted to help and be a participant in the community.
     Cry Cry Cry


    Don't feel bad, Kod - as I said before, this is not simple translation, there are a lot of difficult words and phrases and references. Nor is it easy to translate into English - especially if English is not your first language.

    I appreciate your offer and efforts -( الاعمال بالنيات - "Actions are judged by their intentions" lol Wink )

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #298 - May 15, 2010, 11:38 AM

    Don't feel bad, Kod - as I said before, this is not simple translation, there are a lot of difficult words and phrases and references. Nor is it easy to translate into English - especially if English is not your first language.

    I appreciate your offer and efforts -( الاعمال بالنيات - "Actions are judged by their intentions" lol Wink )




    you are very gifted Hassan... Afro

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #299 - May 15, 2010, 02:03 PM

    Since the author is unknown and the book banned (in Arab countries) who will claim copyright?

    The only objections will be the usual "It insults Islam" - but the contents of the book are scholarly and well argued - I'm sure it can be published.

    We are talking about the English version in the West.

    I am pretty sure thats what the author would want.  I just hope he is still alive so he might see the fruits of his labours eventually if it ever happens.  Is the guy RIBS wonders that it is still alive?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
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