Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #600 - May 31, 2010, 03:36 PM

Quote from: IsLame on May 31, 2010, 01:54 PM
Obviously I see it as Mo rambling on and sometimes forgetting that it was meant to be Allahs words and not his own.

The author also suggests that scribes filled in gaps.

This would makes sense since it wasn't properly transcribed in Muhammad's lifetime (one really cant count bits of bone, palm leaves, or flat stones as a proper transcription).

It is hard to believe that during this process gaps or variances amongst the Huffath were not found and that scribes didn't have to think on their feet - as best they could.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #601 - May 31, 2010, 03:42 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 31, 2010, 03:30 PM
I remember a few times seeing Allah refer to himself as "He"

Or, in the case of al-Fatiha, he refers to himself as 'you.'
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #602 - May 31, 2010, 03:44 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 31, 2010, 03:36 PM
The author also suggests that scribes filled in gaps.

This would makes sense since it wasn't properly transcribed in Muhammad's lifetime (one really cant count bits of bone, palm leaves, or flat stones as a proper transcription).

It is hard to believe that during this process gaps or variances amongst the Huffath were not found and that scribes had to think on their feet - as best they could.

The other possibility is that i think mo meant some parts of the quran was being delivered to him by Allah, not all of them.

I sure would like to have Abuy's & DBs take on it as well though..

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #603 - May 31, 2010, 03:45 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on May 31, 2010, 03:42 PM
Or, in the case of al-Fatiha, he refers to himself as 'you.'

He teaching us how to pray to him - was always the answer for that one.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #604 - June 01, 2010, 11:13 AM

@ Hassan

This part contradicts much of the text that followed:

Quote
Although a large portion of verses are the height of excellence and beauty, another portion of verses fall far below that, while others are weak and flawed.

So he's saying a large portion is highly beautiful and excellent, some not as much and some weak and flawed, yet the following text made it seem as if the whole Quran is flawed and meaningless to him.

Anyway, regarding the apparent "disorganization" of the Quran, Michael Sells, who is NOT a Muslim himself, but one who does appreciate the Quran as a work of literature, had this to say:

Quote
its "scattered or fragmented mode of composition," is in fact a literary device capable of delivering "profound effects — as if the intensity of the prophetic message were shattering the vehicle of human language in which it was being communicated.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #605 - June 01, 2010, 11:19 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 11:13 AM
Anyway, regarding the apparent "disorganization" of the Quran, Michael Sells, who is NOT a Muslim himself, but one who does appreciate the Quran as a work of literature, had this to say:

Personally I found the disorganisation confusing. Human brains are much more effective at understanding and remembering organised information. One second you are on Mt Sinai, the next you are at the birth of Jesus. It's like one of those films that do so many flashbacks you end up with a flashback within a flashback

It certainly doesn't make me believe the verse which says the Quran has been made simple.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #606 - June 01, 2010, 11:30 AM

wow! you wrote that post within a few seconds of my post... do you do this often? because that would explain a lot! (posting without thinking first).

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #607 - June 01, 2010, 11:32 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 11:30 AM
wow! you wrote that post within a few seconds of my post... do you do this often? because that would explain a lot! (posting without thinking first).

Ad hominem

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #608 - June 01, 2010, 11:38 AM

Tarantino wrote the Quran. Tarantino on acid.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #609 - June 01, 2010, 11:39 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 11:13 AM
@ Hassan

This part contradicts much of the text that followed:

So he's saying a large portion is highly beautiful and excellent, some not as much and some weak and flawed, yet the following text made it seem as if the whole Quran is flawed and meaningless to him.

He's not saying the whole Qur'an is flawed and meaningless, he said عدداً لا يستهان به من الآيات which I translated as: 'a significant number of the verses'

"But the verses of the Qur'an are uneven in quality in both language and meaning and this was noticed by the classical scholars as confirmed by al-Suyuti.

Although a large portion of verses are the height of excellence and beauty, another portion of verses fall far below that, while others are weak and flawed.

In the same way ambiguity and riddles envelope a significant number of the verses to the extent that one is confused when trying to understand the intended meaning of this or that verse. While some appear to have no meaning at all, despite the fact that the exegetes (Mufassirun) and scholars of Eloquence "discovered" a thousand and one meanings."

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 11:13 AM
Anyway, regarding the apparent "disorganization" of the Quran, Michael Sells, who is NOT a Muslim himself, but one who does appreciate the Quran as a work of literature, had this to say:

Yes, I have heard that argument. Fair point, but it is obviously a very subjective matter - as with any form of art.

The bottom line for me - long before reading this book - has always been that the claim that the Qur'an is a miracle (and therefore proof Islam is true) cannot be proven in any objective way.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #610 - June 01, 2010, 11:49 AM

regarding this:

Quote
"But the verses of the Qur'an are uneven in quality in both language and meaning and this was noticed by the classical scholars as confirmed by al-Suyuti.

I did notice it too... when it comes to discussing rituals like pilgrimage and such, I usually read quickly, essentially skipping the verses.. but then again, how would verses describing a ritual or how long a woman should wait after divorce, be special?

Besides, that challenge of "brining a Surah like it" was it one of the early revelations (in Mecca?). I'm thinking that this challenge might only apply to all the Surahs before this verse... because quite frankly, the Medina Surahs, in general, don't sound as beautiful as the Meccan ones...

in any case, like you said, it's quite subjective.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #611 - June 01, 2010, 12:00 PM

It's good that you're honest Debunker. It's also funny what you are honest about (pretty much the controversial parts of the Quran)

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #612 - June 01, 2010, 12:04 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 11:13 AM
Anyway, regarding the apparent "disorganization" of the Quran, Michael Sells, who is NOT a Muslim himself, but one who does appreciate the Quran as a work of literature, had this to say:

Allways remember to attack the ball not the man, but now that you choose to emphasize the fact that he's NOT a muslim I would like to emphazise that Michael Sells seems to think of the Qur'an in the same manner as Karen Armstrong and W. Montgomery Walt; ie. that the author of the Qur'an was in some way in connection with the 'spirit'/god/'the it' or something... just as every other prophet/apostle/shaman etc. has been, ie. universalists. Interesting group though.

But the opinion cited is a great example of the fact that literary appreciation is a subjective matter. You have (non-muslim) people with great knowledge of classical arabic who thinks the Qur'an is beautiful and some who think it's disordered etc. But it's not a universal truth. To me the english translations of the Qur'an is disordered and boring. I furthermore don't find the arabic language to be a specifically beautiful language (I'm more into the latin group of languages), neither oral nor written. Perhaps many do really think that the Qur'an is amazing and beautiful, but for the lot (ie. the believers) I'm sure it's basicly based on the obvious step from believing it to be some sort of inspiration from an ultimate god.

Best regards

PS. I was beaten to it by Hassan
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #613 - June 01, 2010, 12:05 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 11:49 AM
I did notice it too... when it comes to discussing rituals like pilgrimage and such, I usually read quickly, essentially skipping the verses.. but then again, how would verses describing a ritual or how long a woman should wait after divorce, be special?

Allah would only need to say "Be" and they would be beautiful

Back onto a serious note though. I know you are a Quran-only Muslim, but are you in the camp that believes the Quran is the unaltered words of God, or do you think it was altered?

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 11:49 AM
Besides, that challenge of "brining a Surah like it" was it one of the early revelations (in Mecca?). I'm thinking that this challenge might only apply to all the Surahs before this verse... because quite frankly, the Medina Surahs, in general, don't sound as beautiful as the Meccan ones...

When in Mecca Muhammad would presumably have had more time to work on them when compared to Medina, because in Medina he had many more followers and had to produce a lot more verses to explain why he did certain things. I wonder if there is a pattern of low-quality in the verses which were "revealed" spontaneously due to social pressures?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #614 - June 01, 2010, 12:07 PM

Quote from: Soren on June 01, 2010, 12:04 PM
But the opinion cited is a great example of the fact that literary appreciation is a subjective matter.

Precisely, anything capable of creating the intricate workings of the universe could not only make a message that is objectively beautiful, but also beautiful in every language it was translated to. The Quran falls far short of this goal.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #615 - June 01, 2010, 12:16 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 11:49 AM
regarding this:

I did notice it too... when it comes to discussing rituals like pilgrimage and such, I usually read quickly, essentially skipping the verses.. but then again, how would verses describing a ritual or how long a woman should wait after divorce, be special?

Besides, that challenge of "brining a Surah like it" was it one of the early revelations (in Mecca?). I'm thinking that this challenge might only apply to all the Surahs before this verse... because quite frankly, the Medina Surahs, in general, don't sound as beautiful as the Meccan ones...

in any case, like you said, it's quite subjective.

Indeed, and as a piece of human achievement that is all one can expect. The Qur'an is at times outstanding, while at other times - understandably and excusably - less so.

But the Qur'an itself, claims to be the inimitable divine speech of an Omnipotent God - and challenges man on that basis.

The author is arguing that In this case we must hold it up higher than the very best of human achievement. We must hold it up to a perfect standard of a Divine Being who can literally do anything.

If it fails to consistently maintain that standard of excellence in beauty of meaning and wording throughout, then one cannot be blamed for questioning it's Divine authorship, according to the very challenge the Qur'an makes for itself.

Personally even when I was a Muslim I had long moved from the idea that the Qur'an was the literal speech of God to the belief that Muhammad was inspired in a way that transcends human speech. The Qur'an then become Muhammad's words - his divine inspiration filtered - and interpreted - through a human from the 7th century and all that this must entail. They are the words of Muhammad - albeit under divine inspiration.

That was the best I could do.

To be honest I think it is almost impossible for any intelligent Muslim to cling to the idea that the Qur'an is the literal speech of of God.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #616 - June 01, 2010, 12:19 PM

Well put, and exactly that - its how I saw it even as a muslim, and tbh I would be surprised if any of the other muslims here honestly thought otherwise. Partcularly with those those "I" versus meaning sometimes Allah & sometimes Mo..

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #617 - June 01, 2010, 12:20 PM

What made you take a step further then Hassan? That there was no divinity involved at all?
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #618 - June 01, 2010, 12:33 PM

@ Soren

Quote
To me the english translations of the Qur'an is disordered and boring.

In fact, they're painfully boring... I remember the first time I read a translation of the Quran was 2 years ago.. I was taken aback in horror.

When I saw one of Hassan's videos where he said that when he first read the Quran, he couldn't put it down, I thought that was a nice compliment... but I was shocked to later learn that he was talking about a translation of the Quran!

Quote
I furthermore don't find the arabic language to be a specifically beautiful language (I'm more into the latin group of languages), neither oral nor written.

The Arabic language is VERY beautiful.. regardless of your faith, you should be able to see this... It sounds beautiful.. of course, I'm not talking about local accents.. I'm referring to the classical Arabic.

Here's a song in Classical Arabic by a Christian singer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f-OeWCrc4E

Within the Middle Eastern languages, I also think the persian language sounds quite beautiful too.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #619 - June 01, 2010, 12:42 PM

@ Hassan

Quote
But the Qur'an itself, claims to be the inimitable divine speech of an Omnipotent God - and challenges man on that basis.

Was it challenging man? Or was it challenging Meccans?

Quote
If it fails to consistently maintain that standard of excellence in beauty of meaning and wording throughout, then one cannot be blamed for questioning it's Divine authorship, according to the very challenge the Qur'an makes for itself.

Well, at least I can confidently say, and without being heretical, that the language of the Quran is NOT perfect. How can it be perfect when the vehicle (the Arabic language) is NOT perfect.

Quote
Personally even when I was a Muslim I had long moved from the idea that the Qur'an was the literal speech of God to the belief that Muhammad was inspired in a way that transcends human speech. The Qur'an then become Muhammad's words - his divine inspiration filtered - and interpreted - through a human from the 7th century and all that this must entail. They are the words of Muhammad - albeit under divine inspiration.

Well, the Quran itself repeatedly says it was *inspired* to Muhammed. I won't speculate as to whether the words themelves were his or not... but reading the words of Muhammed in the Hadith, one can easily see the style is very very different.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #620 - June 01, 2010, 12:49 PM

In that case, whats your stance on the Quranic Challenge?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #621 - June 01, 2010, 01:27 PM

Ok, your question actually makes sense... this means these were the words of God, but it doesn't matter either way, because the Arabic language cannot be perfect...

Anyway, I believe the challenge is for the Meccans, since only they could see the full beauty of the language of (Meccan?) Suras. I see beauty, but I cannot see a miracle and that's because I'm myopic (my Arabic language/appreciation for poetry does not compare to the Meccans of that time).

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #622 - June 01, 2010, 01:34 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 01, 2010, 12:49 PM
In that case, whats your stance on the Quranic Challenge?

On one of the challenges my impression was that the challenge was to bring forward 10(?) stories. The Meccans say "These are nothing but old stories" and Muhammad says to bring 10 like it. I don't recall exactly and am currently too busy to check references etc

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #623 - June 01, 2010, 02:48 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 01:27 PM
Anyway, I believe the challenge is for the Meccans, since only they could see the full beauty of the language of (Meccan?) Suras. I see beauty, but I cannot see a miracle and that's because I'm myopic (my Arabic language/appreciation for poetry does not compare to the Meccans of that time).

Why does the challenge change from 1 verse to 10 versus? Did Allah think the challenge was to easy and change his mind later, or did he forget what he said earlier. Alternatively it could be a scribal error. What are your thoughts?

Quote from: IsLame on May 29, 2010, 11:41 PM
23) The Quranic challenge and so called proof of its divine origins – ie. bring another surah like it -

Quote
010.038 Or say they: He hath invented it ? Say: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.

Here is the same challange adjusted to 10 surahs now. God must have changed his mind and thought one surah was easy to do. Talk about shifting the goalposts! -
Quote
011.013 Or they say: He hath invented it. Say: Then bring ten surahs, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #624 - June 01, 2010, 03:12 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 01, 2010, 02:48 PM
Why does the challenge change from 1 verse to 10 versus?

1: One Sura is the challenge.
2: Mo realises that some of his Suras are really short and changes it to 10 Suras.
3: Over time he gets cocky and drops it back down to 1 Sura

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #625 - June 01, 2010, 05:16 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 12:33 PM
The Arabic language is VERY beautiful.. regardless of your faith, you should be able to see this... It sounds beautiful.. of course, I'm not talking about local accents.. I'm referring to the classical Arabic.

So is there much of a difference between Standard Arabic and Classical Arabic?

And I'd have to agree that the Meccan surahs are much more beautiful than the Madinan ones, which are often tedious and boring.

By contrast, the Meccan ones are symmetrical, ambiguous, beautiful, and simple, without regulations about pilgrimage or divorce, or graphic descriptions of the torture of unbelievers.

They're like any good music or poem, and you can easily insert your own interpretation into them.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #626 - June 01, 2010, 06:19 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 01, 2010, 05:16 PM
So is there much of a difference between Standard Arabic and Classical Arabic?

It's Classical vs colloquial.

Classical = The version in the Quran from the 7th century.
Colloquial = Culture bastardised versions, where they may have introduced elements from other languages etc.

A bit like how the American's bastardised English

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #627 - June 01, 2010, 06:28 PM

Into something better
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #628 - June 01, 2010, 06:31 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 01, 2010, 06:28 PM
Into something better

+1
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #629 - June 01, 2010, 07:39 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 01, 2010, 12:20 PM
What made you take a step further then Hassan? That there was no divinity involved at all?

It wasn't the miraculous - or non-miraculous nature - of the Qur'an that finally caused me to reject Islam. It was the greater and more philosophical problems that Islam shares with most religions. The existence of suffering - and the unsatisfactory answers I found in Islam. The idea that man is somehow blameworthy for not believing in a God he cannot see and has no solid evidence for - and not just blameworthy but to be tortured in the most disgusting ways for eternity. That God would appeal to the basest instincts (fear and desire) in such a crude way and so repeatedly. That God should want his final revelation to reinforce behaviour for all time that we should - and have - moved beyond. Using violence to solve marital problems or lashing girls and boys who have pre-marital sex, chopping hands of thieves etc... This was not God speaking to me - this was Muhammad. Other questions like how can the accident of birth be the overwhelming defining factor (apparently) in one's salvation or lack of it. Why so many unverifiable tales and miracles long ago and why all to the deserts of the Middle East. Why is God so silent now?

It took me a while to reach that point and that realisation - a long time of having my faith shaken and shaken - a long time of attempting to find solutions and reform.

Eventually I reached the point that I was finally able to see the big picture that was staring me in the face. The Qur'an is no more divine than the Bible or the Baghvad Gita - the only reason it was harder for me to see that in the case of the Qur'an and easy for me to see that in the case of the Bible and the Baghvad Gita was that I was born Muslim.
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