Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #630 - June 01, 2010, 07:45 PM

I got to a point where all my doubts were compelling me to reject Islam - but I kept telling myself what if I was wrong?

Finally I realised that even if I was wrong - my thoughts and conclusions were reasonable and not blameworthy - yet according to Islam I am blameworthy.

This in itself invalidated Islam and gave me more courage to say what I was too afraid to - knowing that if there was a God I couldn't hide it anyway - and if he is a good and merciful god then he would surely respect honesty and truthfulness over obedience through fear or desire - and if he didn't then he wasn't a god worthy of worship.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #631 - June 01, 2010, 08:05 PM

I could have that work as a narration in a film. Just imagine a Hans Zimmer score over it and camera pan over various landscapes and events.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #632 - June 01, 2010, 08:08 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 12:42 PM
Was it challenging man? Or was it challenging Meccans?

It is clear to me now that it was challenging the Meccans and not all mankind.

But the consequences of that for Muslims is that the Qur'an was not for all time and all places - it would mean a total overhaul of the way most Muslims look at the Qur'an - perhaps that is indeed the breakthrough that is needed. Islam lost the felxibility and dynamism as soon as Muhammad died.

The belief that it was speaking to all men at all times started a process of stagnation. I think putting the Qur'an back in its context is what Islam desperately needs.

Looking at it from my perspective I of course see the Qur'an as the words of Muhammad and I doubt he ever envisaged his words were for anyone other than his people at the time. Though he himself may have been dazzled by his success and his ambitions may have grown in the latter years and this is reflected over the course of the 20 'revelations' were received.

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 12:42 PM
Well, the Quran itself repeatedly says it was *inspired* to Muhammed. I won't speculate as to whether the words themelves were his or not... but reading the words of Muhammed in the Hadith, one can easily see the style is very very different.

That is rather like saying The Mu'allaqa of Imru'ulQais was very different from the way he spoke to a food merchant in the market.

I don't think Muhammad was a charlatan in the sense he intentionally deceived. I believe he genuinely thought he was receiving revelations. Whatever the case, he would have spoken in different styles when uttering his revelations than when giving advice to companions. Just as the Soothsayer or Kahin would make his utterances captivating and alluring and rhyming - but would obviously not speak like that (even if it were possible) in all ordinary and mundane situations.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #633 - June 01, 2010, 08:23 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 01, 2010, 05:16 PM
So is there much of a difference between Standard Arabic and Classical Arabic?

By Standard Arabic, I assume you mean Modern Literary Arabic or the sort of Arabic you hear in the media or from politicians. Yes there is a huge difference.

Modern Arabic is a long way from Classical Arabic - though of course they are the same language and cannot be compared in any way to Latin and Modern Italian for example. There is a great deal of vocab that is no longer used and meanings have shifted and new concepts ideas have entered. Plus even the syntax and sentence structure has changed slightly - the influence of European languages is clear - and Journalise Arabic is the worst with wholesale lifts from English and other European languages into Arabic - idioms and all!

Classical Arabic at it's best is very beautiful.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #634 - June 01, 2010, 08:27 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 01, 2010, 06:19 PM
It's Classical vs colloquial.

Colloquial is another kettle of fish which I won't go into, but just say that most Arabs in the street don't understand the real classical Arabic well. They may understand Modern Literary Arabic - that is sometimes referred to as Fusha - but it's not the same.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #635 - June 01, 2010, 08:43 PM

Quote from: Hassan on June 01, 2010, 08:23 PM
By Standard Arabic, I assume you mean Modern Literary Arabic or the sort of Arabic you hear in the media or from politicians. Yes there is a huge difference.

Modern Arabic is a long way from Classical Arabic - though of course they are the same language and cannot be compared in any way to Latin and Modern Italian for example. There is a great deal of vocab that is no longer used and meanings have shifted and new concepts ideas have entered. Plus even the syntax and sentence structure has changed slightly - the influence of European languages is clear - and Journalise Arabic is the worst with wholesale lifts from English and other European languages into Arabic - idioms and all!

Classical Arabic at it's best is very beautiful.

Ah, I see.

So is the difference between the two forms of Arabic at all like that between Shakespearean English and Modern English, or are they even less mutually intelligible?

Sorry for the nerdy questions, but this kind of thing interests me
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #636 - June 01, 2010, 09:00 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 01, 2010, 08:43 PM
Ah, I see.

So is the difference between the two forms of Arabic at all like that between Shakespearean English and Modern English, or are they even less mutually intelligible?

Sorry for the nerdy questions, but this kind of thing interests me

Actually I would say that's a fair comparison. Perhaps Classical and Modern Arabic might be even closer. The Qur'an has ensured the link stays alive.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #637 - June 02, 2010, 08:32 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 12:33 PM
@ Soren

In fact, they're painfully boring... I remember the first time I read a translation of the Quran was 2 years ago.. I was taken aback in horror.

When I saw one of Hassan's videos where he said that when he first read the Quran, he couldn't put it down, I thought that was a nice compliment... but I was shocked to later learn that he was talking about a translation of the Quran!

lol

Quote
The Arabic language is VERY beautiful.. regardless of your faith, you should be able to see this... It sounds beautiful.. of course, I'm not talking about local accents.. I'm referring to the classical Arabic.

No it's basicly still a matter of subjective feelings. I know quite a few who thinks german is beautiful, I personally thinks it awful. It's practical to know especially if you are interested in history (semitic history fx) but it's simply not easy on the ear, in my opinion. And partly the same way I fell about aramaic, arabic, and hebrew; classical or modern. It just doesn't do the trick for me. Sorry. It's fx the sound of the letters 'ayn' and 'qaf' I'm not a big fan of. It reminds me a bit of some of the more unfortunate german sounds. At times it sounds like a person who is gagging or is about to throw up. Mind you I don't consider danish to beautiful at all either and I'm danish.

Quote
Here's a song in Classical Arabic by a Christian singer.
...
Within the Middle Eastern languages, I also think the persian language sounds quite beautiful too.

Sorry it just isn't me
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #638 - June 02, 2010, 08:37 AM

@ Soren

So, what are the most beautiful sounding languages to you?

I like French, Classical Arabic and Persian.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #639 - June 02, 2010, 08:56 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 08:37 AM
@ Soren

So, what are the most beautiful sounding languages to you?

I like French, Classical Arabic and Persian.

I like french too, and spanish and italian and I like faroese which is my maternal language.

An example of faroese:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=manhWF2Nvqw&feature=related

Perhaps we should stop highjacking this thread
- debunker
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #640 - June 02, 2010, 09:19 AM

oh don't worry about it.. this thread has been already highjacked so many times.

Anyway, I find Italian very funny... and I don't like Spanish at all...

as for the language in the clip, it sounded very bland, tasteless and colorless.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #641 - June 02, 2010, 09:24 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 01, 2010, 12:33 PM
In fact, they're painfully boring... I remember the first time I read a translation of the Quran was 2 years ago.. I was taken aback in horror.

What took you from this state of mind to where you are today?

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
- Soren
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #642 - June 02, 2010, 09:31 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 09:19 AM
oh don't worry about it.. this thread has been already highjacked so many times.

Anyway, I find Italian very funny... and I don't like Spanish at all...

as for the language in the clip, it sounded very bland, tasteless and colorless.

There you go. The universality of "beautiness" doesn't exist I personally found the song in the clip very beatiful and touching, and the language with taste and color.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #643 - June 02, 2010, 09:45 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 02, 2010, 09:24 AM
What took you from this state of mind to where you are today?

I don't understand.. I still find the translations very horrible.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #644 - June 02, 2010, 09:46 AM

Quote from: Soren on June 02, 2010, 09:31 AM
There you go. The universality of "beautiness" doesn't exist I personally found the song in the clip very beatiful and touching, and the language with taste and color.

The music/voice was indeed very beautiful, but the language favorless.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #645 - June 02, 2010, 09:50 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 09:19 AM
Anyway, I find Italian very funny... and I don't like Spanish at all...

Ditto

Quote from: Soren on June 02, 2010, 08:32 AM
It's fx the sound of the letters 'ayn' and 'qaf' I'm not a big fan of.

I think Arabic is interesting in part because of all the crazy sounds in it. But yeah, to a non-speak, letters like qaf, ayn, gha, ta, etc., do sound odd.

And as for an ugly language, I hate to say it, Gaelic.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #646 - June 02, 2010, 09:53 AM

Quote
And as for an ugly language, I hate to say it, Gaelic.

hmmm... ugly languages? I would love to share my opinion, but I'm afraid I'd offend someone... oh well, here's one:

Chinese! It baffles me that those guys can actually understand each other... it's as if they speak the same 2-3 words over and over and over again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF6LLP5aRQA

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #647 - June 02, 2010, 09:54 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 09:45 AM
I don't understand.. I still find the translations very horrible.

Maybe I misunderstood? I thought that you were generally saying that some verses are beautiful and some horrible; are you saying that in Arabic even the ugly ones are beautiful? If so, what took you from "Ugly translation" to wanting to learn Arabic - if you think they are still ugly in Arabic what made you choose to be a Muslim?

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
- debunker
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #648 - June 02, 2010, 09:55 AM

@ ZBD

You said:

Quote
And I'd have to agree that the Meccan surahs are much more beautiful than the Madinan ones, which are often tedious and boring.

By contrast, the Meccan ones are symmetrical, ambiguous, beautiful, and simple, without regulations about pilgrimage or divorce, or graphic descriptions of the torture of unbelievers.

How did you know? Do you speak some Arabic? Or are you referring to translations?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #649 - June 02, 2010, 09:57 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 02, 2010, 09:54 AM
Maybe I misunderstood? I thought that you were generally saying that some verses are beautiful and some horrible; are you saying that in Arabic even the ugly ones are beautiful? If so, what took you from "Ugly translation" to wanting to learn Arabic - if you think they are still ugly in Arabic what made you choose to be a Muslim?

I think I don't understand you still... I am a native speaker of Arabic.

And no, I didn't say some verses sounded ugly... but they didn't sound special or poetic.. how could a verse discussing divorce regulaions be poetic?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #650 - June 02, 2010, 10:02 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 09:57 AM
I think I don't understand you still... I am a native speaker of Arabic.

And no, I didn't say some verses sounded ugly... but they didn't sound special or poetic.. how could a verse discussing divorce regulaions be poetic?

It's okay, I didn't know you were a native Arabic speaker.

So do you agree or disagree that some of the verses are badly written? I don't just mean "not poetic" but clumsily structured or consisting of less than desirable grammar? Is there a single verse in the Quran which you look at and think "I could make that read a little bit better"?

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #651 - June 02, 2010, 10:16 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 09:53 AM
hmmm... ugly languages? I would love to share my opinion, but I'm afraid I'd offend someone... oh well, here's one:

Chinese! It baffles me that those guys can actually understand each other... it's as if they speak the same 2-3 words over and over and over again.

Hehe, I think it's a fascinating-sounding language. I once had someone teach me some Chinese. It's pretty friggin' hard to get the tones right, I kept forgetting it

But then, it depends what kind of Chinese. I think Cantonese sounds a fair bit stranger than Mandarin.

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 09:55 AM
@ ZBD

You said:

How did you know? Do you speak some Arabic? Or are you referring to translations?

Not much. I've been meaning to learn some. Maybe I'll find the time, who knows.

But in any case, I have learnt some Arabic from reading the verses and shorter surahs of the Qur'an. I know a few of the short ones, like al-Fatiha, al-Ikhlas, al-Kafiroon, al-Naas, and a few other verses here and there.

With regards to symmetry, I was thinking something along the lines of al-Naas.

qul a'oudhu barabban naas, malikin naas, ilaahin naas, min sharral wiswaasil khinaas, aladhee yuwaswisu fis sudooran naas, minal jinnati wan naas

I have to say though, my favourite verse in the Qur'an right now has to be 53:38

أَلاَّ تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ

Alla taziru waaziratun wizra ukhraa

Genius
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #652 - June 02, 2010, 10:17 AM

@ rational

Quote
So do you agree or disagree that some of the verses are badly written?

I would say roughly 3-5 verses seem, to me, badly written.

Quote
I don't just mean "not poetic" but clumsily structured or consisting of less than desirable grammar?

I don't believe there are any grammatical errors in the Quran... the grammar is defined by the people speaking the language.. the Arabic grammar was standarized after the Quran... Ancient poems have many grammatical errors if measured by the standarized grammar. Anyway, check my opinion written as series of questions to Hassan below:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8486.msg210789#msg210789

Quote
Is there a single verse in the Quran which you look at and think "I could make that read a little bit better"?

Actually, I did try that exercise before... but mostly when facing very weird words that could be easily replaced with more common words... I then realize that the weird word is used so that the verse can still rhyme.

As for structure, yeah, I tried to reconstruct a couple of verses, but I failed...

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #653 - June 02, 2010, 10:20 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 10:17 AM
I would say roughly 3-5 verses seem, to me, badly written.

Do you believe those were man made verses, if so who do you think made them?

Do you think the rest of the verses are so beautifully written that they could not possibly have been man made?

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http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #654 - June 02, 2010, 10:24 AM

@ ZBD

oh, so you have some knowledge of Arabic... did you know that almost ALL words, depending on the grammatical position, can end with either: u, i, a OR un, in, an?

Take this Surah for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6CIGVSC5ms
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/transliteration/072.html

Lots of m's and n's, in many Meccan Suras, make it easier to be chanted.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #655 - June 02, 2010, 10:27 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 02, 2010, 10:20 AM
Do you believe those were man made verses, if so who do you think made them?

No.

Quote
Do you think the rest of the verses are so beautifully written that they could not possibly have been man made?

I already answered that in a previous post... I believe only ancient Arabs were capable of seeing the full beauty of verses so as to be able to see a miracle... in my case, I'm too myopic to see a miracle, but I do see lots of beauty.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #656 - June 02, 2010, 10:31 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 10:27 AM
[Do you think any verses were man made]
No.

I'm just trying to understand your mindset

If I read a book by a perfect infallible being I'd expect it to be perfect. How do you reconcile these badly written verses with God?

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 10:27 AM
I already answered that in a previous post... I believe only ancient Arabs were capable of seeing the full beauty of verses so as to be able to see a miracle... in my case, I'm too myopic to see a miracle, but I do see lots of beauty.

If the book was only at its ultimate beauty during the 7th century and only to a small subset of the planet's inhabitants, what reason is there for an English-only speaker in the 21st century living in the UK to become a Muslim?

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #657 - June 02, 2010, 10:41 AM

Quote
If I read a book by a perfect infallible being I'd expect it to be perfect. How do you reconcile these badly written verses with God?

like I said, I found about 3-5 verses that seemed to me badly structured.. but I couldn't rewrite them myself... so what?

Quote
If the book was only at its ultimate beauty during the 7th century and only to a small subset of the planet's inhabitants, what reason is there for an English-only speaker in the 21st century living in the UK to become a Muslim?

You misunderstood me.... Suppose a miraculous painting exists... if someone got the perfect vision, they can see the miracle in the painting.. if someone is myopic, albeit slightly, they can still appreciate its beauty but they will miss out on the fine details that make the miracle.

As for why become a Muslim, the language/bad translations aside, I decided to stay a Muslim mainly because I believe the Creator God exists AND I'm 100% convinced in the Quranic definition of the word, God.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #658 - June 02, 2010, 10:49 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 10:41 AM
like I said, I found about 3-5 verses that seemed to me badly structured.. but I couldn't rewrite them myself... so what?

How do you reconcile imperfect output from a being you believe is perfect, that's what I am trying to understand.

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 10:41 AM
You misunderstood me.... Suppose a miraculous painting exists... if someone got the perfect vision, they can see the miracle in the painting.. if someone is myopic, albeit slightly, they can still appreciate its beauty but they will miss out on the fine details that make the miracle.

But if Islam is a religion for the entire world, why would you have to be a 7th century Arab to appreciate the painting in all its glory, a 21st century Arabic speaker to appreciate its beauty, and anyone else who reads it gets to see a really crappy quality replication? If the Quran offers me nothing as a 21st century non-Arabic speaker then how can God expect me to believe Islam is a valid religion?

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 10:41 AM
As for why become a Muslim, the language/bad translations aside, I decided to stay a Muslim mainly because I believe the Creator God exists AND I'm 100% convinced in the Quranic definition of the word, God.

There's not a single thing that bothers you about it?

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #659 - June 02, 2010, 10:56 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 10:24 AM
@ ZBD

oh, so you have some knowledge of Arabic... did you know that almost ALL words, depending on the grammatical position, can end with either: u, i, a OR un, in, an?

Take this Surah for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6CIGVSC5ms
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/transliteration/072.html

Lots of m's and n's, in many Meccan Suras, make it easier to be chanted.

Yeah, I understand the harakat, tashkeel and tanween and all that. Fatha if it's accusative, dhumma if it's nominitive, tanween if it's indefinite and so on. But maybe one day I'll learn more than the most basic stuff

And that's a good recitation. I've listened to quite a few of them. I find that one can still appreciate them as works of music, art or whatever even if one doesn't believe that the Qur'an is divine. And not understanding it can certainly help in appreciating its beauty

Here's one of Ayatul Kursi that I think's quite good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVMUofvyA68

Very interesting and ethereal sound it has
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