Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #660 - June 02, 2010, 10:58 AM

I love it when these verse is recited in a mosque people get up and put the palm of their right hand on top of their heads.

I am yet to know what that means
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #661 - June 02, 2010, 11:03 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 02, 2010, 10:58 AM
I love it when these verse is recited in a mosque people get up and put the palm of their right hand on top of their heads.

I am yet to know what that means

I expect it's a meme. Just like how people sometimes put there hand over one ear when they sing without realising it's because that's what they saw pop stars do in 1980's videos, except the pop stars were typically holding their over sized headphones in place. I still see pop stars doing that today, even though the headphones are much smaller

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #662 - June 02, 2010, 11:04 AM

Quote
Yeah, I understand the harakat, tashkeel and tanween and all that. Fatha if it's accusative, dhumma if it's nominitive, tanween if it's indefinite and so on. But maybe one day I'll learn more than the most basic stuff

Knowing about Harakat is beyond "basic" stuff!

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Here's one of Ayatul Kursi that I think's quite good

Hmm? I didn't know you'd like *slow* recitations... there's a very good *slow* reciter whose name I don't remember ... perhaps Hassan can help me...

@ Hassan:

what's the name of this reciter at the beginning of this video below?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwYom6xWYTk

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #663 - June 02, 2010, 11:11 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 02, 2010, 10:49 AM
How do you reconcile imperfect output from a being you believe is perfect, that's what I am trying to understand.

The Quran, being communicated in imperfect human language, cannot be perfect, anyway.

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But if Islam is a religion for the entire world, why would you have to be a 7th century Arab to appreciate the painting in all its glory, a 21st century Arabic speaker to appreciate its beauty, and anyone else who reads it gets to see a really crappy quality replication? If the Quran offers me nothing as a 21st century non-Arabic speaker then how can God expect me to believe Islam is a valid religion?

As if I didn't answer you above... who cares about the language? It's only a bonus and for mainly the people of that time... just like Jesus' miracles were for people of his time (we can't see Jesus' miracles today, can we?)

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There's not a single thing that bothers you about it?

Of course there is... but it's like less than ~1% of the entire book that bothers me and ONLY slavery/conquest (mainly slavery) is why I lost my religion once.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #664 - June 02, 2010, 11:12 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 11:04 AM
Hmm? I didn't know you'd like *slow* recitations... there's a very good *slow* reciter whose name I don't remember ... perhaps Hassan can help me...

Well, I find that particular one very good.

And it seems to have something to do with my musical taste. I often like the slower versions of classical works. A lot of people don't like it, and moan that it's 'half tempo,' but I think it can make a song better.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #665 - June 02, 2010, 11:27 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 11:11 AM
The Quran, being communicated in imperfect human language, cannot be perfect, anyway.

I agree that a perfect message portrayed via an imperfect medium cannot be perfect, but it can be well written, and you said these verses were "badly written". I'm trying to understand how you reconcile this all powerful infallible perfect being writing badly written text.

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 11:11 AM
It's only a bonus and for mainly the people of that time... just like Jesus' miracles were for people of his time (we can't see Jesus' miracles today, can we?)

Remember you are talking to an atheist, I don't believe Jesus did any miracles. But to use that example, actions are transient and only persist for the duration of the action, whereas the contents of a book persist as long as the book is accurately duplicated.

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 11:11 AM
Of course there is... but it's like less than ~1% of the entire book that bothers me and ONLY slavery/conquest (mainly slavery) is why I lost my religion once.

What did you do to reconcile slavery and conquest?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #666 - June 02, 2010, 11:29 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 11:04 AM
@ Hassan:

what's the name of this reciter at the beginning of this video below?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwYom6xWYTk

Sounds familiar, but I'm not sure.

I used to love listening to Sheikh Husary - this is not one of his best clips, but it is from one of my favourite Suras

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h82xugK0Cns
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #667 - June 02, 2010, 11:43 AM

@ rational

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I agree that a perfect message portrayed via an imperfect medium cannot be perfect, but it can be well written, and you said these verses were "badly written". I'm trying to understand how you reconcile this all powerful infallible perfect being writing badly written text.

like I said, these verses (about 5 of them) seemed to me badly written, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are indeed badly written. For example, Shakespeare's writings seem (to me) very very badly structured... but obviously I'm wrong...

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Remember you are talking to an atheist, I don't believe Jesus did any miracles. But to use that example, actions are transient and only persist for the duration of the action, whereas the contents of a book persist as long as the book is accurately duplicated.

I was talking to you as an atheist... the miracle of the language of (only Meccan?) Suras of the Quran was also transient... all what is left of it is the message (and beauty, but not a miracle, for those who speak the classical language well).

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What did you do to reconcile slavery and conquest?

I realized there's really only one verse on conquest (I'm not counting battles with Meccans and their allies) and that at that time everyone was conquering everyone... it was a survival tactic for those harsh times...

As for slavery, to this day, I still can't reconcile it.. so I'm just ignoring it.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #668 - June 02, 2010, 11:48 AM

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I used to love listening to Sheikh Husary

Never heard of him... anyway, I like the fast paced recitations a lot better, although AbdulBaset is quite good, despite his slow recitation.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #669 - June 02, 2010, 11:52 AM

Quote from: Soren on June 02, 2010, 08:32 AM
And partly the same way I fell about aramaic, arabic, and hebrew; classical or modern. It just doesn't do the trick for me. Sorry. It's fx the sound of the letters 'ayn' and 'qaf' I'm not a big fan of. It reminds me a bit of some of the more unfortunate german sounds. At times it sounds like a person who is gagging or is about to throw up. Mind you I don't consider danish to beautiful at all either and I'm danish.

Sorry it just isn't me

Me too, arabic sounds yiddish to me and quite rough. I personally prefer softer sounds like that of French

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #670 - June 02, 2010, 12:01 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 11:43 AM
like I said, these verses (about 5 of them) seemed to me badly written, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are indeed badly written. For example, Shakespeare's writings seem (to me) very very badly structured... but obviously I'm wrong...

Shakespeare didn't claim he was God. You are evidently not the only one who thinks certain verses are badly written.

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 11:43 AM
I realized there's really only one verse on conquest (I'm not counting battles with Meccans and their allies) and that at that time everyone was conquering everyone... it was a survival tactic for those harsh times...

Yes, I suspect that living in/near a desert means there isn't always enough resources for everyone to survive. So do you think that God finds it acceptable for the strong to kill the weak in times of poor resources?

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 11:43 AM
As for slavery, to this day, I still can't reconcile it.. so I'm just ignoring it.

It's "on the shelf". Do you expect that one day you will understand it, or do you just think it is wrong and intend to continue ignoring it?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #671 - June 02, 2010, 12:06 PM

Debunker honestly, "what your right hand posesses", does this phrase not disturb you?
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #672 - June 02, 2010, 12:08 PM

Quote
Shakespeare didn't claim he was God. You are evidently not the only one who thinks certain verses are badly written.

that's not the point! Shakespeare's writings are supposedly brilliant... yet I think they're very badly structured... obviously I'm wrong in that regard, so i could be just as easily wrong regarding the 3-5 verses I think are badly structured.

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Yes, I suspect that living in/near a desert means there isn't always enough resources for everyone to survive. So do you think that God finds it acceptable for the strong to kill the weak in times of poor resources?

?? I didn't say any of the things you said above.

Quote
It's "on the shelf". Do you expect that one day you will understand it, or do you just think it is wrong and intend to continue ignoring it?

I believe I will never understand it.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #673 - June 02, 2010, 12:11 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 02, 2010, 12:06 PM
Debunker honestly, "what your right hand posesses", does this phrase not disturb you?

of course it does! In fact, despite emancipation of slaves was incorporated in atonement for sins and in charity/alms, I still find the fact that it wasn't entirely abolished very disturbing.... I mean it's difficult to accept that at the end, Quran didn't just abolish the practice completely like it did with alcohol.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #674 - June 02, 2010, 12:13 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 02, 2010, 11:52 AM
Me too, arabic sounds yiddish to me and quite rough. I personally prefer softer sounds like that of French

French is not soft!

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #675 - June 02, 2010, 12:19 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 12:13 PM
French is not soft!

I think it is, I dont find it as course as other languages. Same applies to Urdu too, which is also imo a soft. pleasant & respectful language too.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #676 - June 02, 2010, 12:22 PM

Quote
I think it is, I dont find it as course as other languages. Same applies to Urdu too, which is also a respectful language.

Like Soren said, beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder.

By the way, is this recitation in Urdu?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8guP5et4yw

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #677 - June 02, 2010, 12:28 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 12:22 PM
Like Soren said, beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder.

By the way, is this recitation in Urdu?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8guP5et4yw

That was very melodic - I dont know what language it is, but it might be Hindi if its a recitation of the Vedas. Only thing is that I didnt recognise the accent nor a single word, so it might be a completely different language. I assume any ex-hindus here might be able to help..

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #678 - June 02, 2010, 12:39 PM

That sounds like a Sikh prayer. In which case, it might be in Punjabi.

Edit: Then again, if it's a reading from the vedas, it's probably Sanskrit
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #679 - June 02, 2010, 12:41 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 12:08 PM
that's not the point! Shakespeare's writings are supposedly brilliant... yet I think they're very badly structured... obviously I'm wrong in that regard, so i could be just as easily wrong regarding the 3-5 verses I think are badly structured.

I think you might be missing my point. Shakespeare's work is subjective because he was a human. If Shakespeare had unlimited power and was infallible then I am certain that he could produce an unlimited amount of work which everyone in the world found amazing, without exceptions. For someone with unlimited power a book that everyone agrees is excellent should be very easy.

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 12:08 PM
?? I didn't say any of the things you said above.

That's the impression I got from this text...

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 11:43 AM
at that time everyone was conquering everyone... it was a survival tactic for those harsh times...

You seem to be saying that it was okay for Muhammad to go on conquests at the time because everyone else was doing it in order to survive the harsh conditions. There were not enough resources at times (Allah obviously didn't provide) and so the strong killed the weak in order to prevail. If you aren't saying this then could you explain?

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 11:43 AM
[Slavery] I believe I will never understand it.

But you are okay with the idea that God could condone something which you seem to find immoral? Do you think it is unreasonable to expect God to ensure it makes sense?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #680 - June 02, 2010, 12:51 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 02, 2010, 12:39 PM
That sounds like a Sikh prayer. In which case, it might be in Punjabi.

Edit: Then again, if it's a reading from the vedas, it's probably Sanskrit

but Punjabi/Hindi/Urdu/Sanskrit all sound the same, no?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #681 - June 02, 2010, 12:53 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 12:11 PM
of course it does! In fact, despite emancipation of slaves was incorporated in atonement for sins and in charity/alms, I still find the fact that it wasn't entirely abolished very disturbing.... I mean it's difficult to accept that at the end, Quran didn't just abolish the practice completely like it did with alcohol.

Yeah well then if Allah is real, as in the The God that sent this book I hope he will forgive for being more than uneasy with those verses. I had ignored them in the past but I can't anymore. I refuse to believe that an All-Merciful being would even use such a coarse and crude phrase.

That whole "thing" reflects 7th Century Arabia. I can't worship a Being that would condone it or not abolish it, that would not be horrified by another human taking his subject and calling himself a master. That would have sex with his slaves!!!!

Of course this reflects a modern God, as does the past reflect a 7th Century God.

There is no way for me to know the nature of God outside scripture but judging from scripture I find it difficult to believe that this God is real. It seems absurd that the Being that created this Universe has the mentality of a tribal chief from the Arabian desert.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #682 - June 02, 2010, 01:03 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 12:51 PM
but Punjabi/Hindi/Urdu/Sanskrit all sound the same, no?

I thought it sounded more Middle Eastern than Desi.

Here is some urdu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZM0e2kMua4

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #683 - June 02, 2010, 01:04 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 02, 2010, 12:41 PM
I think you might be missing my point. Shakespeare's work is subjective because he was a human. If Shakespeare had unlimited power and was infallible then I am certain that he could produce an unlimited amount of work which everyone in the world found amazing, without exceptions. For someone with unlimited power a book that everyone agrees is excellent should be very easy.

actually it is you who keeps missing the point. If Shakespeare wrote a miraculous beautful poem, only the English, or in fact, only those Englishmen with an excellent taste for English literature would be able to see a *miracle*... A blind man cannot see a miracle... a myopic one, might see beauty but not a miracle... one might look at an *abstractly* written text and thinks it's gibberish while another thinks it's genius... unlike *physical* miracles, like the splitting of the sea, incorporeal miracles can only be subjective.

Quote
That's the impression I got from this text...

You seem to be saying that it was okay for Muhammad to go on conquests at the time because everyone else was doing it in order to survive the harsh conditions. There were not enough resources at times (Allah obviously didn't provide) and so the strong killed the weak in order to prevail. If you aren't saying this then could you explain?

No. I never said it had anything to do with resources... survival can be attained by gaining control over others before they come and crush your religion... what's what I meant.

Quote
But you are okay with the idea that God could condone something which you seem to find immoral? Do you think it is unreasonable to expect God to ensure it makes sense?

I will not discuss slavery with you or with anyone else anymore.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #684 - June 02, 2010, 01:09 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 02, 2010, 12:53 PM
Yeah well then if Allah is real, as in the The God that sent this book I hope he will forgive for being more than uneasy with those verses. I had ignored them in the past but I can't anymore. I refuse to believe that an All-Merciful being would even use such a coarse and crude phrase.

That whole "thing" reflects 7th Century Arabia. I can't worship a Being that would condone it or not abolish it, that would not be horrified by another human taking his subject and calling himself a master. That would have sex with his slaves!!!!

Of course this reflects a modern God, as does the past reflect a 7th Century God.

There is no way for me to know the nature of God outside scripture but judging from scripture I find it difficult to believe that this God is real. It seems absurd that the Being that created this Universe has the mentality of a tribal chief from the Arabian desert.

Like I said to rationalizer, I will not discuss slavery with anyone anymore...

As for the language of the Quran sounding *human*, i wouldn't expect anything else... if we were Martians, the Quran would have sounded Martian, too.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #685 - June 02, 2010, 01:11 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 02, 2010, 01:03 PM
I thought it sounded more Middle Eastern than Desi.

Here is some urdu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZM0e2kMua4

yep, that sounds exactly like the same language I hear in Indian movies..

by the way, you come from a Shia background, Islame?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #686 - June 02, 2010, 01:12 PM

Islame was an Ahmadi derelict
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #687 - June 02, 2010, 01:14 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 01:04 PM
actually it is you who keeps missing the point. If Shakespeare wrote a miraculous beautful poem, only the English, or in fact, only those Englishmen with an excellent taste for English literature would be able to see a *miracle*... A blind man cannot see a miracle... a myopic one, might see beauty but not a miracle... one might look at an *abstractly* written text and thinks it's gibberish while another thinks it's genius... unlike *physical* miracles, like the splitting of the sea, incorporeal miracles can only be subjective.

1) Shakespeare's work was not miraculous. Despite this flaw, his work is appreciated across the globe after it has been translated into hundreds of languages

2) The Quran is miraculous. Yet the transation is mostly appreciated by Muslims only. If there was something miraculous in the language then it would be possible to explain & rationlise what that beauty was and how it manifested itself. Here you say is it only not missing on non-Arabs, but Arabs also The only people who could appreciate it were people around him? Even people around him thought there were simply "stories of the old".

Do you really believe there is some hidden poetry inside there

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I will not discuss slavery with you or with anyone else anymore.

Why not?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #688 - June 02, 2010, 01:18 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 01:04 PM
actually it is you who keeps missing the point. If Shakespeare wrote a miraculous beautful poem, only the English, or in fact, only those Englishmen with an excellent taste for English literature would be able to see a *miracle*...

I am not talking about a miracle, I am talking about producing text which nobody can point to and say "this part is badly written". I am saying that with unlimited power it would be easy to produce something as simple as a book which everyone in the world at least agrees is well written. Shakespeare was not God so he couldn't do that, but surely God could have done that with the Quran? "Not badly written" surely wouldn't be difficult?

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 01:04 PM
No. I never said it had anything to do with resources... survival can be attained by gaining control over others before they come and crush your religion... what's what I meant.

You said that everyone was attacking everyone, they didn't attack each other for religious supremacy did they? Surely they attacked each other for resources, their religion was probably just a tool to help them feel a group identity and to be able to dehumanise the enemy.

I thought we were also excluding the battles fought for self defence, you said it was the conquests you didn't agree with.

Quote from: debunker on June 02, 2010, 01:04 PM
I will not discuss slavery with you or with anyone else anymore.

I hope you won't take this as a personal attack because it isn't. I just wanted to remark that your refusal to discuss it is not an uncommon reaction from people who want to continue believing something for which they have a "niggle", you will most likely have seen it many times when talking to Christians?

May I come up a step from the subject of slavery itself and instead ask how you justify to yourself that it is okay to shelf any concern and not think about it? I have been in a position where I was not only willing to delude myself into thinking something is true but actively did it on a very grand scale so I can understand quite a few behaviours of people from all religions, but what I was never able to do was to convince myself that it was okay to shelf something. So I'd like to understand what happens in someone's mind when they do that, can you explain that to me?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #689 - June 02, 2010, 01:40 PM

@ rational

Quote
I am not talking about a miracle, I am talking about producing text which nobody can point to and say "this part is badly written". I am saying that with unlimited power it would be easy to produce something as simple as a book which everyone in the world at least agrees is well written. Shakespeare was not God so he couldn't do that, but surely God could have done that with the Quran? "Not badly written" surely wouldn't be difficult?

I repeat: appreciation of language, music, art, is largely subjective. That's the nature of these things. You cannot materialize *experience*.

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You said that everyone was attacking everyone, they didn't attack each other for religious supremacy did they? Surely they attacked each other for resources, their religion was probably just a tool to help them feel a group identity and to be able to dehumanise the enemy.

I thought we were also excluding the battles fought for self defence, you said it was the conquests you didn't agree with.

re-read what I wrote in the previous post.

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I hope you won't take this as a personal attack because it isn't. I just wanted to remark that your refusal to discuss it is not an uncommon reaction from people who want to continue believing something for which they have a "niggle", you will most likely have seen it many times when talking to Christians?

no comment.

Quote
May I come up a step from the subject of slavery itself and instead ask how you justify to yourself that it is okay to shelf any concern and not think about it? I have been in a position where I was not only willing to delude myself into thinking something is true but actively did it on a very grand scale so I can understand quite a few behaviours of people from all religions, but what I was never able to do was to convince myself that it was okay to shelf something. So I'd like to understand what happens in someone's mind when they do that, can you explain that to me?

I already explained... I'm convinced in the majority of verses, I'm confused by some of them and deeply disturbed by slavery... i look at slavery and think: this is definitely wrong... I look at numerous other verses and I feel as if God is speaking to me... so I decided it was foolish to discredit the whole book, just because I'm disturbed by a few verses in it.

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