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 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #720 - June 05, 2010, 07:20 PM
    Quote from: marleya on June 05, 2010, 07:10 PM
    The Quran is clear on having sex with slavewomans. If muslim did not read hadith, they would have followed Allahs word in Quran, " Dont force your slavemaidens into prostitution against their will"

    Hadith on this topic is very crazy, and legalize rape with slavewomens, that has just lost their husband in war.


    That line is about prostitution, lending my slave and making money of her, or her making money of it. I own her, and I could have sex with her. She is my right hand possession. This is according to Quran.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #721 - June 05, 2010, 07:28 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 05, 2010, 07:20 PM
    That line is about prostitution, lending my slave and making money of her, or her making money of it. I own her, and I could have sex with her. She is my right hand possession. This is according to Quran.


    You say the Quran give right to a man to have sex with what his right hand possess, wouldn it be also natural that the verse "dont force your slavemaiden into prostitution also regarded the owner of the slavemaid?

    That with out her consent he could not sleep with her, because that is forcing her into prostitution?

    Then there is the question of Ma malakat ayimanukum, betyr "whom your right hand possess" that is the schoolars translation.

    If it means "those who are allready yours" then the hole issue would not exist?


  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #722 - June 05, 2010, 07:35 PM
    The whole issue has been there for 1400 years. You can't change that with reinterpretation.
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #723 - June 05, 2010, 07:43 PM
    Quote from: marleya on June 05, 2010, 07:28 PM
    You say the Quran give right to a man to have sex with what his right hand possess, wouldn it be also natural that the verse "dont force your slavemaiden into prostitution also regarded the owner of the slavemaid?

    That with out her consent he could not sleep with her, because that is forcing her into prostitution?

    Then there is the question of Ma malakat ayimanukum, betyr "whom your right hand possess" that is the schoolars translation.

    If it means "those who are allready yours" then the hole issue would not exist?





    You're reaching, because A. it means in present time and B. Show me where slavery is abolished in the Quran

    Also prostitution involves money. The wife in Islam has to obey her husband and satisfy him sexually when he demands it. She is like a microwave, ready to heat his pirogi at a moment's notice. The female slave falls under this "wife" label.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #724 - June 05, 2010, 11:39 PM
    Quote from: marleya on June 05, 2010, 07:10 PM
    The Quran is clear on having sex with slavewomans. If muslim did not read hadith, they would have followed Allahs word in Quran, " Dont force your slavemaidens into prostitution against their will"

    Hadith on this topic is very crazy, and legalize rape with slavewomens, that has just lost their husband in war.


    That hadith is talking about quite a different scenario.

    Basically, people would tell their slave women to go out, as prostitutes, to earn money for their masters. Muhammad put a stop to that practice. But that and sex with one's slaves are two distinct issues.

    That and, there are numerous ahadith that say that slaves should be loyal and obedient to their masters.

    Bukhari

    Volume 3, Book 46, Number 723:

    Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:

    The Prophet said, "He who has a slave-girl and teaches her good manners and improves her education and then manumits and marries her, will get a double reward; and any slave who observes Allah's right and his master's right will get a double reward."

    Volume 3, Book 46, Number 725:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet said, "Goodness and comfort are for him who worships his Lord in a perfect manner and serves his master sincerely."

    Volume 3, Book 46, Number 727:

    Narrated Abu Musa:

    The Prophet said, "The Mamluk (slave) who worships his Lord in a perfect manner, and is dutiful, sincere and obedient to his Saiyid (master), will get a double reward."
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #725 - June 06, 2010, 12:01 AM
    This new part of the translation is excellent, Hassan  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #726 - June 06, 2010, 09:40 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 06, 2010, 12:01 AM
    This new part of the translation is excellent, Hassan  Afro


    Thanks - I don't mind saying this book is pretty tricky to translate! Fortunately I read Jahiz, Tawhidi and Hamadhani many years ago - though not these particular texts that were quoted.

    @Aziz, Not that I'm on your case, but I notice the latest bit hasn't been added to the PDF file Wink
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #727 - June 06, 2010, 09:49 PM
    Yaya  bunny
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #728 - June 06, 2010, 09:51 PM
    I'm Jus' Sayin'  grin12
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #729 - June 09, 2010, 07:17 PM

    Chapter 4 (cont...)

    Part 3 - The Eloquence of the Qur'an (cont...)

    So the Qur'an as we have mentioned previously is not on one level of quality. On the contrary it is characterised by mediocrity, banality, weakness, disarray, fragmentation, confusion, ambiguity, and disclaimers alongside excellent verses that exhibit majesty, greatness, eloquence, cohesion, clarity and complete accountability. The exegetes were at their wits end in trying to explain this phenomena and so embarked on desperate efforts to ignore them and push them out of the spotlight so that we wouldn't come upon any of them during the discussions about eloquence, rhetoric, beauty, marvels, linguistic artistry of the others that adorn the Qur'an.

    They focussed on the masterpieces in books about miraculousness of the Qur'an and used them to illustrate it in every chapter, section and page - almost in every line - of their forced books, whether appropriately or inappropriately, until ears were sick of them and the mind was bored of them. Indeed the degree that the spotlight was concentrated on some verses was equalled by the degree that another portion of verses were swept under the carpet. They imposed an invisible barrier around them, so that attention skips over them swiftly and lightly leaving no time for pondering or contemplation.

    All our readings of the Qur'an are readings done as acts of worship that only increase blindness upon blindness each time more is committed to memory and the tongue perfects recitation. It is not a recitation that involves analysis, critique, understanding or penetrating appraisal.

    Yes, indeed the exegetes were hard pushed to explain these verses and create ways out for them. They ignored them whenever citing examples (of eloquence) and resorted to their "contortion" every time they came across them in their writings and forcing them to encompass meanings they didn't encompass in order to preserve it's (the Qur'an's) integrity.

    They were the knights in shining armour, ever present, never tiring of a challenge, never finding it too burdensome to come up with a reply, never letting any objective defeat them, never letting weariness weigh them down. They were standing by the door answering every visitor. The students of Hermeneutics can find fertile ground and expansive pasture, amongst them, to support their analytical theories. You know them by their signs (Qur'anic reference). They are people of waffle, carriers of the the incense. Some of them went to such absurd extremes that they became a laughing stock. They "discovered" amongst the confusing, bewildering, fluctuating, disordered, disturbed, incomprehensible, contradictory verses, eloquent nuances and sublime connotations that are too subtle for the ordinary mind, that escape people's understanding and challenge the intellect to the extent that no-one can fully perceive them other than those 'firm in knowledge' (ref to Qur'an) - even if they can perceive them!!

    Give me a lunatic and I will unearth pearls, jewels and timeless gems of wisdom from his speech.

    They were able to extract meaning from that which had no meaning, they never found it hard to make the barren fertile, the mute articulate, incoherence eloquent and every old man into the prime of his youth. In their hands everything is brilliant and fluid, excellent and magnificent and hence comes from Heaven. Even if it is a thorn, bitter gourd, deadly poison or the like of such scourges.

    For Heaven cannot stand up on it's own except with the help of the one-eyed, the lame, the scrawny and every decrepit moronic dim-wit. Repent to the Dim-Wits, for indeed they hold the keys to Heaven!

    The judgment of the critic becomes defective the stronger is his faith (in that which he is analysing/critiquing), until he only sees in the Qur'an what he wants to see and is blind to what he doesn't want to see. If you expose to him the extent of the flaws in the Qur'an and the abundance of contradictions and his handling of them, he will fume and seeth with rage, and insult and curse. He will block his ears to you as he has blocked his mind and make the most vile accusations against you. Woe to you, for you have come to create Fitna and turn him away from his religion unless Allah makes him steadfast and blesses him with the blessing of strong faith.

    Watch how he will block his ears as though saying "This is a manifest lie" (24:12) as the people of Noah did when he said - speaking to his lord;

    "And every time I have called to them, that Thou mightest forgive them, they have (only) thrust their fingers into their ears, covered themselves up with their garments, grown obstinate, and given themselves up to arrogance." (71:7)

    And this is what the Polytheists of Mecca did, so the Qur'an said to them:

    "Had we sent down unto thee (Muhammad) (actual) writing upon parchment, so that they could feel it with their hands, those who disbelieve would have said: This is naught else than mere magic" (6:7)

    Woe upon woe to he who utters a single word of criticism against the truth of Islam and what a catastrophe and calamity of calamaties if if this criticism harms a single word of the Qur'an. So I wonder what is the difference between us and what we see today and between the people of Noah and the polytheists of Mecca? (45)

    In summary, those who prattle on about the Qur'an, heaping praises on it, raving about it's eloquence and sublime beauty, filling the world with clamour about the miraculousness of the Qur'an, and that it is the 'Greatest Miracle' (46) of the Qur'an only cite the amazing and excellent (verses) that grace the Qur'an and which form the basis of the magic of the Qur'an. Their attention was poured on selected verses where there is no doubt about their eloquence and hieght of excellence and beauty.

    But how many of them didn't turn their attention to the weak and poor (verses) of the Qur'an of which we shall give examples of shortly, and if they did turn their attention to them, they undertook the task of polishing, refinement and improvement inorder to repair their defects and cover their flaws so that they leave their hands as protected gold nuggets or hidden pearls befitting the Lord of Might and Majesty - the Cleaver of daybreak (ref to Qur'an) until the day of judgement!

    ***

    _______________________________

    (45) Perhaps you have heard of the ministerial crisis in Kuwait and the demand for the dismissal of the Minsiter of Awqaf. Why? Because of the issue of a new edition of the Qur'an containing some unintentional mistakes, which will send the minister to Hell on a day when no intercession will be had except one who has taken a promise from Allah. The printing mistakes came to light while he was minister - 'Perish his hands!' - and appeared in a number of copies  - May Allah humiliate him, he has brought a terrible thing, the heavens almost shatter, the earth split, the mountains collapse that he allowed the book of God to have flaws enter it and didn't prevent or avoid it - may God destroy him. He thought it was a trivial matter. He didn't see it - Woe to him! - as a grave, serious, obligation. So return him to Allah - him and his like - for that is more pure and fitting. If he desists not then he and his like will burn long in the Fire of Hell. And none shall come to the Merciful, except as a slave, and each one will come to him on the Day of Judgment alone! (NB: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/335404.stm)

    (46) The name of a book by Muhammad Abu Zahra that is extolled by the masses - nay, by the select and the select of the select.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #730 - June 09, 2010, 07:40 PM
    Those poor Mufassirun really get a bashing lol - but I have to say he is spot on!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #731 - June 09, 2010, 08:01 PM
    Well done Hass, brilliant work!  Afro
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #732 - June 09, 2010, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on June 09, 2010, 08:01 PM
    Well done Hass, brilliant work!  Afro


    I tell you, if this book could be finished and published - it would cause quite a stir. Just the fact that it is by an ex-Muslim and in Arabic alone will make people take notice - apart from the well presented and argued content.

    Who the author is will come under heavy scrutiny - and I and those involved with translating and publishing it may have to think about going into hiding lol  grin12
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #733 - June 09, 2010, 08:11 PM
    hello Hassan. hope you're well mate  Smiley
    thanks for the translation  Smiley
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #734 - June 09, 2010, 08:16 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 09, 2010, 08:08 PM
    I tell you, if this book could be finished and published - it would cause quite a stir. Just the fact that it is by an ex-Muslim and in Arabic alone will make people take notice - apart from the well presented and argued content.

    Who the author is will come under heavy scrutiny - and I and those involved with translating and publishing it may have to think about going into hiding lol  grin12


    lulu.com :-)
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #735 - June 09, 2010, 08:21 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 09, 2010, 08:11 PM
    hello Hassan. hope you're well mate  Smiley
    thanks for the translation  Smiley


    Hiya mate - hope u r well - won't be long till the World Cup kicks off - thank God for football hamdan Katheera!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #736 - June 09, 2010, 08:23 PM
    hehe
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #737 - June 09, 2010, 08:50 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 09, 2010, 08:16 PM
    lulu.com :-)


    Just looked that up - looks good, thanks  Afro

    But I really think a major publisher should want to publish this and give it the promotion it deserves.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #738 - June 09, 2010, 09:06 PM
    agreed, and I think the anonymity of the author may even help with the enigma  Afro
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #739 - June 09, 2010, 10:16 PM
    Yes, Hassan. It will be updated. I'm on it... grin12
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #740 - June 10, 2010, 07:38 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 09, 2010, 08:50 PM
    Just looked that up - looks good, thanks  Afro

    But I really think a major publisher should want to publish this and give it the promotion it deserves.


    Is it released as public domain?  If not then without knowing the publisher they won't be able to publish it.  If it is then they might publish it and keep the cash, so that might suit them nicely :-)

    But LuLu.com in the meantime is a good option for those people who like it in printed format.  When it's done I'll see if I can convert the PDF into an e-book for Kindles etc.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #741 - June 10, 2010, 10:30 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 09, 2010, 07:17 PM

    Chapter 4 (cont...)

    Part 3 - The Eloquence of the Qur'an (cont...)


    Bravo, Hassan!

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #742 - June 10, 2010, 10:39 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 09, 2010, 08:08 PM
    I tell you, if this book could be finished and published - it would cause quite a stir. Just the fact that it is by an ex-Muslim and in Arabic alone will make people take notice - apart from the well presented and argued content.

    Who the author is will come under heavy scrutiny - and I and those involved with translating and publishing it may have to think about going into hiding lol  grin12


    Please don't mention who brought this evil book to your attention.... I have kids to raise you know!  Thread sneaker
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #743 - June 10, 2010, 11:30 AM
    lol. i think RIBS is actually genuinely p-ing his pants. hehehehe

    don't worry mate i'll protect you and Hassan  Afro

    I know karate  grin12
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #744 - June 10, 2010, 01:59 PM
    Easy for you to say Mr Living in the UK.... I still live in a strict Muslim country where apostates are eaten for breakfast... Cheesy
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #745 - June 10, 2010, 02:04 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on June 10, 2010, 01:59 PM
    Easy for you to say Mr Living in the UK.... I still live in a strict Muslim country where apostates are eaten for breakfast... Cheesy


    Can you not afford to emigrate to a more sensible country?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #746 - June 10, 2010, 02:08 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 10, 2010, 11:30 AM
    lol. i think RIBS is actually genuinely p-ing his pants. hehehehe

    don't worry mate i'll protect you and Hassan  Afro

    I know karate  grin12

     yes
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #747 - June 10, 2010, 02:10 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on June 10, 2010, 01:59 PM
    Easy for you to say Mr Living in the UK.... I still live in a strict Muslim country where apostates are eaten for breakfast... Cheesy


    ok we'll just blame it all on Hassan. the fundies in Britain are no match for Hassan  yes



    Quote
    Can you not afford to emigrate to a more sensible country?


    i'm guessing it's not as easy as that. practical issues might include employment, family etc....


    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #748 - June 10, 2010, 02:12 PM
    move to canada ribs

    its just like the UK, only white people here pretend to be nice.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #749 - June 10, 2010, 02:14 PM
    lol
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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