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 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #900 - June 20, 2010, 01:36 AM
    Just proves that it was set in a time and place.

    I like tanned girls myself Smiley

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #901 - June 20, 2010, 01:38 AM
    Me too. All warm and lightly toasted rocks.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #902 - June 20, 2010, 01:42 AM
    I never got the obsession with clear eye-whiteness. I guess Mo didn't like stoned women. But he sure as hell liked to have them stoned  dance
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #903 - June 20, 2010, 08:04 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 19, 2010, 11:50 PM
    The only way I can make sense of it is if it's talking about how to make sure one has enough funds to raise orphans under one's care. If someone has wives that they need to support, then they also have to make sure they have enough money for the orphans. And so, they have to make sure that they don't marry too many wives so that they can still afford to maintain both their wives and the orphans in their care, and do so equitably.


    Thanks, Zebedee, though it's talking about being just/fair/equitable between orphans. i.e. don't take their money/property. If it meant "If you can't support them" then I would expect it to say that, and it should say marry, 2, 3, 4 or 1 if you can't support them. (The way the numbers have been phrased also makes this confusing.)

    The only other thing I can think of as a link is being fair to orphans/wives - but it's really weak - particularly the way it is phrased as a conditional sentence.

    "if you can't be fair with orphans, then you should marry 2,3 or 4 women, but if you can't be fair, then only 1 - or slaves!"

    This verse is seriously messed up - and as the author says looks very likely something is missing.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #904 - June 20, 2010, 08:10 AM
    doesnt it mean marry more women so the orphan can be looked after properly  Huh?

    Like I commented on during my read of the Quran, Mo was far more obsessed with orphans than any other underprivilidged group.  It just so happens he was an orphan too.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #905 - June 20, 2010, 08:24 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 20, 2010, 08:10 AM
    doesnt it mean marry more women so the orphan can be looked after properly  Huh?


    Apart from the fact it says nothing about that being the reason it would be very weird d to go from saying "Don't take the orphans money/property, and if you feel you can't deal fairly (with their property money) - then marry 2, 3, 4 wives - so they can look after them properly" - it would make it even more likely that one might dip into the orphans money/property.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #906 - June 22, 2010, 11:00 AM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 4 - Where is the Eloquence of the Qurʾān? (cont...)

    8. There is a significant stylistic error that I used to consider the Qur'an should be above falling into.  After the Qur'an describes the comforts of paradise and things the believer can look forward to, 'that no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor mind encompassed' (from Hadith) - and this proceeds from the premise of creating the world into a new creation - it then turns to back to the premise (of creating a new creation) instead of starting with the premise and ending with it's consequence, or rather, one of it's consequences! This is a back-to-front way of doing things that the Qur'an should not slip into (21:101-104):

    Those for whom the good from Us has gone before, will be removed far from it (Hell).

    They will not hear its faintest sound, and they shall abide forever in that which their souls long for.

    The Supreme Horror will not grieve them, and the angels will meet them (saying): 'This is your day which you were promised.'

    The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall produce a new one, a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.

    (21:101-104)

    Shouldn't it have started with the rolling up of the heavens then mentioned what follows on from that, of rewards and punishments people will get? Oh masters of eloquence, which sub-division of eloquence does this upside-down sequencing fall under? Is breaking up continuity with a conflicting verse that has no link with what went before it, then resuming the narrative after that, an aberration, anomaly and disharmony or is it amongst the sublime signs of miraculousness? Please only speak the truth about miraculousness. Miraculousness is precision in narrative, continuity and harmony, each part adhering to and supporting the other so as to arrive exactly at what the author intends and desires, without interruption, aberration or anomaly in the eloquent, miraculous speech.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #907 - June 22, 2010, 11:07 AM
    Quote
    Oh masters of eloquence, which sub-division of eloquence does this upside-down sequencing fall under?


     Cheesy
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #908 - June 22, 2010, 11:12 AM
    Quote from: RIBS on June 22, 2010, 11:07 AM
    Cheesy


    That made me laugh too  Cheesy

    No doubt one of the "Waffling Mufassirs" somewhere has 'discovered' the subtle and miraculous wisdom to this as they do to all the other anomalies Wink
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #909 - June 22, 2010, 11:23 AM
    they tried to do it in movies in Holywood but fails mesirably everytime. I never liked the movies where they start by the ending and then they reveal bit by bit the story from the begining. They spoil the movie first by showing the murderer in the opening sceine.  Cheesy
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #910 - June 22, 2010, 11:46 AM
    Quote from: RIBS on June 22, 2010, 11:23 AM
    they tried to do it in movies in Holywood but fails mesirably everytime. I never liked the movies where they start by the ending and then they reveal bit by bit the story from the begining. They spoil the movie first by showing the murderer in the opening sceine.  Cheesy


    I agree, but that's quite different. That has continuity of purpose and intention that the film producer builds up slowly over the film to lead one to the intended effect - but this has no identifiable reason - just just short-term and haphazard jumping and lack of continuity for no apparent meaning.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #911 - June 22, 2010, 09:38 PM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 4 - Where is the Eloquence of the Qurʾān? (cont...)

    9. After relating the story of the People of the Cave and how God raised them from their sleep, the Qur'an turned to the question of their number and the people's dispute about it. But instead of telling us this number - this mystery, this unusual curiosity, this hidden secret - He withheld it from us, so that it would make our hearts sad.

    "(Some) will say: three, the fourth being their dog; (some) say: Five, the sixth being their dog, making conjectures at what is unknown; and (some) say: Seven, and the eighth their dog. Say: My Lord best knows their number, none knows them but a few; therefore enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear, nor consult any of them about them (the Sleepers). (18:22)

    If only He had completed the final part of the story and bestowed upon us the knowledge of how long they stayed in the cave - them and their beloved dog. But He preferred - Glorified is He - for the sake of a wisdom no-one knows except Him - to dash our hopes to know the truth of this curious affair. I cannot see, and I am only a poor servant, any reason for that, even if our masters, the exegetes (mufassirun), can see a thousand and one reasons.

    Then it says, straightaway after the previous verse:

    "And don't say about anything that I will do that tomorrow! Unless (saying) if Allah wills it, and mention your Lord if you forget and say perhaps my Lord will guide me to a nearer course to the right than this." (18:23-24)

    And now you have the pleasing item and the happy surprise after this long wait;

    "And they remained in their cave three hundred years and (some) add (another) nine." (18:25)

    If only He - May He be Glorified - would settle on this number, but He insists on it remaining wrapped-up in the unseen things of the Heavens and the Earth;

    "Say God knows best how long they remained; to Him are (known) the unseen things of the heavens and the earth; how clear His sight and how clear His hearing! They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever." (18:26)

    Who knows? Maybe He - May He be Glorified - doesn't know their number - them and their auspicious dog - nor how long they remained in the cave. Instead we have extravagant polemical conjectures and broad idiosyncratic flip-flopping and loose, unrestrained linguistic flapping-about. Would that He had never mentioned this story at all, for it is a story that is cut-off, I don't know what the masters of the art of storying telling think about it.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #912 - June 22, 2010, 10:13 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 22, 2010, 09:38 PM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 4 - Where is the Eloquence of the Qurʾān? (cont...)


    An excellent passage of the book, Mr Hassan.

    Given that Allah does not shy away from revealing what is in the Unseen, it is rather odd that he saw fit to omit these little details...

    What possible reason could their be behind Allah's doing this?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #913 - June 22, 2010, 10:25 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 22, 2010, 10:13 PM
    An excellent passage of the book, Mr Hassan.

    Given that Allah does not shy away from revealing what is in the Unseen, it is rather odd that he saw fit to omit these little details...

    What possible reason could their be behind Allah's doing this?


    Indeed! Particularly when you take into account the fact that the unbelievers asked him to prove his prophethood by revealing the truth of this matter so that they would know he was a real prophet of God.

    Unbelievers: "If you are a real prophet of God then tell us this secret."

    Muhammad: "No. It's a secret."

    Unbelievers: "Yep, he's a real prophet of God alright!"
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #914 - June 22, 2010, 10:35 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 20, 2010, 01:42 AM
    I guess Mo didn't like stoned women. But he sure as hell liked to have them stoned  dance


    sig worthy!!!
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #915 - June 22, 2010, 10:35 PM
    Probably why he had so few genuine followers. And why so many apostatized after his death.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #916 - June 22, 2010, 10:36 PM
    Quote from: DreamWeaver on June 22, 2010, 10:35 PM
    sig worthy!!!


    Thanks Grin
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #917 - June 22, 2010, 10:54 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 22, 2010, 10:25 PM
    Indeed! Particularly when you take into account the fact that the unbelievers asked him to prove his prophethood by revealing the truth of this matter so that they would know he was a real prophet of God.

    Unbelievers: "If you are a real prophet of God then tell us this secret."

    Muhammad: "No. It's a secret."

    Unbelievers: "Yep, he's a real prophet of God alright!"


    Hahaha

    Allah really let Mo down that time. If that were the best my omniscient god could do, boy would my face ever be red.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #918 - June 22, 2010, 11:03 PM
    well, think of it this way, Muhammed, if he was an imposter, he could have faked any number he wanted... after all, the Quran never shied away from changing many stories (Aaron opposed building the calf rather being the one who built it, etc, etc), so why not give a number if even if this number happens to contradict some version of this particular story?

    God chose not to specify their number for reasons we can only speculate about, but speculating that the lack of this info is indication of the falsehood of the Quran is meaningless.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #919 - June 22, 2010, 11:08 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 11:03 PM
    well, think of it this way, Muhammed, if he was an imposter, he could have faked any number he wanted... after all, the Quran never shied away from changing many stories (Aaron opposed building the calf rather being the one who built it, etc, etc), so why not give a number if even if this number happens to contradict some version of this particular story?

    God chose not to specify their number for reasons we can only speculate about, but speculating that the lack of this info is indication of the falsehood of the Quran is meaningless.


    Or, it's indicative of the possibility that 'God' didn't actually know what the number was, and so as not to give the wrong answer, did not give one at all.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #920 - June 22, 2010, 11:35 PM
    you're missing my point. There's no wrong answer! And if there was, the Quran is ALREADY in contradiction with almost any story, so why would Muhammed (assuming he was an imposter) try to avoid a "wrong" answer if he so blatantly contradicted almost all other stories?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #921 - June 22, 2010, 11:44 PM
    Because the delegation 'knew' the answer, and they asked Muhammad to tell them that answer in order to ascertain if he truly did get his information from God. If their answer was wrong, he could still have told them what their answer was, but then corrected them and informed them of the correct one.

    I'm sure that would have been more impressive than what is in the Qur'an, and what any sophist or imposter could have done.

    At least, that's just how I see. I don't say that it proves Muhammad was an imposter, I just think it's something that can be taken into consideration in that regard.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #922 - June 22, 2010, 11:51 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 11:35 PM
    you're missing my point. There's no wrong answer! And if there was, the Quran is ALREADY in contradiction with almost any story, so why would Muhammed (assuming he was an imposter) try to avoid a "wrong" answer if he so blatantly contradicted almost all other stories?

    Please DB - the easiest thing for a prophet from God would be to give the correct answer.  Dont give me the usual spiel "oh, God has some other plan".

    You would be so cocksure about this if it was in the Bible, or was something positive in the Quran.  Your bias's should work both ways and apply in equal measure, so they cancel each other out in order for you to ascertain the truth.  Otherwise you will certainly never find it.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #923 - June 22, 2010, 11:58 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 22, 2010, 11:44 PM
    Because the delegation 'knew' the answer, and they asked Muhammad to tell them that answer in order to ascertain if he truly did get his information from God. If their answer was wrong, he could still have told them what their answer was, but then corrected them and informed them of the correct one.

    I'm sure that would have been more impressive than what is in the Qur'an, and what any sophist or imposter could have done.

    At least, that's just how I see. I don't say that it proves Muhammad was an imposter, I just think it's something that can be taken into consideration in that regard.


    wait, I thought those who asked him, didn't ask him what they "thought" was the correct number... it's like coming to him and asking him: "hey Muhammed, what number I'm thinking of right, now? or what thoughts are running through my head right now?".

    I thought they asked him if he knew or can know the story from God.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #924 - June 23, 2010, 12:00 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 22, 2010, 11:51 PM
    Please DB - the easiest thing for a prophet from God would be to give the correct answer.  Dont give me the usual spiel "oh, God has some other plan".

    You would be so cocksure about this if it was in the Bible, or was something positive in the Quran.  Your bias's should work both ways and apply in equal measure, so they cancel each other out in order for you to ascertain the truth.  Otherwise you will certainly never find it.



    oh please! Again, one more time. The Quran never shied away from contradicting almost every story, so even as an imposter, if Muhammed contradicted their story, then it's just going to be yet another different Quranic version of another ancient story.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #925 - June 23, 2010, 06:39 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 11:03 PM
    so why not give a number if even if this number happens to contradict some version of this particular story?


    Because it might have contradicted the number with the people who asked him and made Muhammad look silly.

    And if their number was wrong, God could have said "Those fools think the number is X, but it's really Y".

    People were always asking Muhammad things and the Qur'an never shied away from answering them.

    Odd that when it was a "What's behind my back" type of a question - he said "I'm not answering".

    Hmmmm.....
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #926 - June 23, 2010, 07:00 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 11:58 PM
    wait, I thought those who asked him, didn't ask him what they "thought" was the correct number... it's like coming to him and asking him: "hey Muhammed, what number I'm thinking of right, now? or what thoughts are running through my head right now?".


    That's the point I was making. The Jews of Madina wanted to test Muhammad by asking him about something they knew about but the Arabs didn't and so they gave a set of questions to the Quraysh to ask Muhammad.

    Though I notice the author of the book avoids raising that question. No doubt he has made a conscious decision to avoid ref to hadith and concentrate his critique on internal evidence only.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #927 - June 23, 2010, 07:02 AM
    Muhammad was a clever fucker  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #928 - June 23, 2010, 09:04 AM
    I'm surprised you were not aware of this story, Debunker - I remember reading it way back.

    "When Al-Nadr said that to them, they sent him and `Uqba b. Abu Mu`ayt to the Jewish rabbis in Medina and said to them, 'Ask them about Muhammad; describe him to them and tell them what he says, for they are the first people of the scriptures and have knowledge which we do not possess about the prophets.'

    They carried out their instructions, and said to the rabbis, 'You are the people of the Taurat, and we have come to you so that you can tell us how to deal with this tribesman of ours.'

    The rabbis said, 'Ask him about three things of which we will instruct you; if he gives you the right answer then he is an authentic prophet, but if he does not, then the man is a rogue, so form your own opinion about him.

    Ask him what happened to the young men who disappeared in ancient days, for they have a marvellous story. Ask him about the mighty traveller who reached the confines of both East and West. Ask him what the spirit is. If he can give you the answer, then follow him, for he is a prophet. If he cannot, then he is a forger and treat him as you will.'

    The two men returned to Quraysh at Mecca and told them that they had a decisive way of dealing with Muhammad, and they told them about the three questions. They came to the apostle and called upon him to answer these questions.

    He said to them, 'I will give you your answer tomorrow,' but he did not say, 'if God will.' So they went away; and the apostle, so they say, waited for fifteen days without a revelation from God on the matter, nor did Gabriel come to him, so that the people of Mecca began to spread evil reports, saying, 'Muhammad promised us an answer on the morrow, and today is the fifteenth day we have remained without an answer.'

    This delay caused the apostle great sorrow, until Gabriel brought him the Chapter of The Cave, in which he reproaches him for his sadness, and told him the answers of their questions, the youths, the mighty traveller, and the spirit."

    Quote from: Sirat, Ibn Ishaq.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #929 - June 23, 2010, 09:58 AM
    @Aziz - you might want to add that quote from the Sira of Ibn Ishaq as a footnote as I'm sure it would be of interest to readers.
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