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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 313685 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #930 - June 23, 2010, 10:05 AM

    Yupp that story bothered the shit out of me as a muslim.

    What's the excuse you say? Well God was testing Muhammad's faith Smiley
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #931 - June 23, 2010, 11:21 AM

    btw a Press Release about this project has now been put on the CEMB website, here:

    http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/indexPressreleases.html
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #932 - June 23, 2010, 11:22 AM

    Hassan, Is it a good idea to add it as a footnote? Because it's pretty large... Maybe I should try to add it to the back matter (Index,...) of the book?

    Edit: Regarding the press release: Cool! Afro

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #933 - June 23, 2010, 11:23 AM

    Maybe I should try to add it to the back matter (Index,...) of the book?


    Yes, that's a better idea - thanks, Aziz  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #934 - June 23, 2010, 11:26 AM

    btw a Press Release about this project has now been put on the CEMB website, here:

    http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/indexPressreleases.html

    Perhaps you could use it also as an opportunity to advertise for some help with the translation?

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #935 - June 23, 2010, 11:27 AM

    Are there any general guidelines for how to do this? I mean, footnote marks are numbers, but what should the mark for this reference be?

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #936 - June 23, 2010, 11:37 AM

    Not sure, Aziz - perhaps others can help with that - I will get you the page numbers of the quote from the Arabic and Alfred Guillaume's translation later.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #937 - June 23, 2010, 11:37 AM

    Are there any general guidelines for how to do this? I mean, footnote marks are numbers, but what should the mark for this reference be?


    Personally I prefer to have such info in the footnotes but if you think that's not possible you could make an appendix where the passage could be cited with comments. In this case you could make a footnote refering to the appendix. Otherwise use asterisk or letters.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #938 - June 23, 2010, 11:39 AM

    Perhaps you could use it also as an opportunity to advertise for some help with the translation?


    Not sure how to go about that.

    btw it was Maryam (or whoever posted that press release) who put that stuff about me being the 'team leader' - not me Wink
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #939 - June 23, 2010, 11:39 AM

    Thanks, Soren. Smiley

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #940 - June 23, 2010, 11:40 AM

    Well, I don't see anybody else working on this, except Hassan and me. Wink

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #941 - June 23, 2010, 11:53 AM

    Not sure how to go about that.

    Send her an email to add this to the press release *HELP NEEDED BY ARABIC TRANSLATORS*

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #942 - June 23, 2010, 11:54 AM

    Well, I don't see anybody else working on this, except Hassan and me. Wink


    Hey I'm praying for you guys. That's considered work no?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #943 - June 23, 2010, 12:08 PM

    Well, I don't see anybody else working on this, except Hassan and me. Wink


    Perhaps you could ask All-Brains if he would lent a hand?

    Hey I'm praying for you guys. That's considered work no?


    Hey bulldog. Praying doesn't work so no. It's considered a waste of time Smiley
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #944 - June 23, 2010, 12:11 PM

    BlackDog = HotDog soon Angry

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #945 - June 23, 2010, 12:23 PM

     Cheesy
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #946 - June 23, 2010, 12:31 PM


    Hey bulldog. Praying doesn't work so no. It's considered a waste of time Smiley


     Cry

    This would be like the time my parents told me about Santa Claus not really existing. Except I grew up muslim and Santa Claws is really a Zionist invention to keep the Palestinans down. At least that's what a crazy nutter at the local masjid told me.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #947 - June 23, 2010, 12:50 PM

    The story is in the appendix now. Smiley

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #948 - June 23, 2010, 12:59 PM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 4 - Where is the Eloquence of the Qurʾān? (cont...)

    10. Amongst the strangest verses of the Qur'an and most disordered, confused and furthest from fluency, soundness, and harmony, are those that are that way because of the numerous parenthetical sentences in them, of which there is no end to. So much so that their edges become entangled with other verses so that one finds it hard to come across the conclusion of the original verse - if there is a conclusion - and distinguish it from the rest of the verses. This was a matter that weighed heavily on the poor exegetes and forced them to  approximate a conclusion for them, so as to at least preserve the integrity! (of the Qur'an) Indeed amongst the strangest of these and furthest from unity and cohesion are these verses - a sprawling long cocktail that is talking about the Jews: (4:155-161)

    "Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelief in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened, nay, Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so they believe not save a few.

    Because of their disbelief and of their saying against Mary a tremendous lie.

    And their saying, we slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger. They slew him not nor crucified him, but it was made to appear so to them, and indeed those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not, for certain

    Nay Allah took him up unto Himself, Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

    And There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.

    Because of wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were lawful to them, and because of their hindering many from Allah's way.

    Their taking usury and they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretences, We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful punishment."

    (4:155-161)

    Is this mish-mash part of the marvelous eloquence? Why doesn't anyone cite these verses when talking about the beauty of the Qur'an, the precision of the Qur'an and sublime melody of the Qur'an? No, they limit themselves to the excellent verses. Then again perhaps mixing things into a hodgepodge is part of the Miraculous nature of the Qur'an.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #949 - June 23, 2010, 01:18 PM

    Hassan isn't that verse just a summary of the vile ways of Jews (according to Quran)? Or does he mean it has no connection to verses before and after it?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #950 - June 23, 2010, 01:21 PM

    He's saying all the parenthetical sentences make it confusing to read.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #951 - June 23, 2010, 01:21 PM

    Quote
    Why doesn't anyone cite these verses when talking about the beauty of the Qur'an,

    yes

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #952 - June 23, 2010, 01:24 PM

    What's interesting is that the Quran never goes in detail about what really happened. Just a summary. It's almost like God wasn't there when it happened  Thinking hard Or like somebody told him second-hand accounts but not from somebody who was there either, more like second-hand accounts of somebody that heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody....  Thinking hard

    And it's repeated over and over again in the Quran, same theme, same wordings, same "details" Hmm. Why is that?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #953 - June 23, 2010, 01:34 PM

    Because of wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were lawful to them, and because of their hindering many from Allah's way.


    Were these prohibtions that Allah placed on the Jews binding on all subsequent generations?

    If so, then I imagine that'd contradict the verses in the Qur'an that say 'None shall be burdened with the sins of another' (6:164, 35:18, 39:7, etc.). Simply because the descendents would be punished for what their forefathers did. Sounds like 'the sins their fathers' kinda thing you'd find in the OT.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #954 - June 24, 2010, 09:27 AM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 4 - Where is the Eloquence of the Qurʾān? (cont...)

    11. Finally I present to you these two verses - without comment - for you to decide for yourself what comment they deserve: (17:60-61)

    "And when We said to you: Surely your Lord encompasses men; and We did not make the vision which We showed you but as a trial for men and the cursed tree in the Quran as well; and We put terror into them, but it only adds to their great inordinacy. And when We said unto the angels: prostrate before Adam and they prostrated except Iblis, he said: Shall I prostrate before that which you created of clay?"

     (17:60-61)


    ***


    (This completes section 4 - next is section 5 "Disorder in the Distribution of  Topics")
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #955 - June 24, 2010, 09:31 AM

    omg  mysmilie_977

    those two are totally different :S
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #956 - June 24, 2010, 09:36 AM

    On top of - and apart from the fact I don't know wtf the first one is talking about - you would have to be insane to say the first verse was eloquently phrased. It's truly terrible! And I'm talking about the Arabic!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #957 - June 24, 2010, 09:37 AM

    Grin

    Cursed tree. So is that only mentioned this one time? I thought maybe its refereing to the tree in hell? With that weird fruit? Zakoom?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #958 - June 24, 2010, 09:38 AM

    Yes, I assume it is - but wtf is it all about?

    "And when We said to you: Surely your Lord encompasses men; and We did not make the vision which We showed you but as a trial for men and the cursed tree in the Quran as well; and We put terror into them, but it only adds to their great inordinacy."

    And more than that - couldn't God - Blessed is He - have phrased this better?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #959 - June 24, 2010, 09:39 AM

    Because it might have contradicted the number with the people who asked him and made Muhammad look silly.

    And if their number was wrong, God could have said "Those fools think the number is X, but it's really Y".

    People were always asking Muhammad things and the Qur'an never shied away from answering them.

    Odd that when it was a "What's behind my back" type of a question - he said "I'm not answering".

    Hmmmm.....


    but then again, like almost all the stories in the Quran flat out contradicted many of what the Jews believed, what was making Muhammed *apprehensive* of contradicting the Jewish belief, just one more time?

    Besides, the Quran did say that they didn't know what the real number was anyway (they were in no position to assume knowledge of this).

    سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلَاثَةٌ رَّابِعُهُمْ كَلْبُهُمْ وَيَقُولُونَ خَمْسَةٌ سَادِسُهُمْ كَلْبُهُمْ رَجْمًا بِالْغَيْبِ وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٌ وَثَامِنُهُمْ كَلْبُهُمْ قُل رَّبِّي أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِهِم مَّا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيهِمْ إِلَّا مِرَاء ظَاهِرًا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيهِم مِّنْهُمْ أَحَدًا

    I can't use the hilight function... anyway, the emphasis is:  رَجْمًا بِالْغَيْبِ

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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