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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 313582 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #960 - June 24, 2010, 09:44 AM

    You mean Muhammad said that.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #961 - June 24, 2010, 09:46 AM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 4 - Where is the Eloquence of the Qurʾān? (cont...)

    11. Finally I present to you these two verses - without comment - for you to decide for yourself what comment they deserve: (17:60-61)

    "And when We said to you: Surely your Lord encompasses men; and We did not make the vision which We showed you but as a trial for men and the cursed tree in the Quran as well; and We put terror into them, but it only adds to their great inordinacy. And when We said unto the angels: prostrate before Adam and they prostrated except Iblis, he said: Shall I prostrate before that which you created of clay?"

     (17:60-61)


    ***


    (This completes section 4 - next is section 5 "Disorder in the Distribution of  Topics")


    yes, it does seem badly constructed, as if he had this revelation in a dream, rather than awake.

    btw, didn't Aicha once said that he received some revelations while asleep? I look it up.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #962 - June 24, 2010, 09:47 AM

    You mean Muhammad said that.


    no, Muhammed's alter ego (from your perspective of course).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #963 - June 24, 2010, 09:48 AM

    what was making Muhammed *apprehensive* of contradicting the Jewish belief, just one more time?


    Indeed! So why didn't God say something like: "The number you ignorantly think, is X, but the truth is Y"

    As you say God could contradict them - AND show them he knows how many fingers they are holding up behind their back.

    Game, set and match!

    Instead it said: "Some say this some say that but only I know the truth"

    Just imagine for a moment, Debunker - and I know this is hard for you (and I mean that sincerely not in a derogatory manner - as I've been there ) imagine, Muhammad wasn't actually getting messages from God (even if he sincerely thought he was) and spent 15 days stressing about this  - can you see how the response in the Qur'an is exactly what you might expect from someone who doesn't actually know?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #964 - June 24, 2010, 09:48 AM

    So wait.

    God couldn't pick a better time? Or resend the verse?

    So. Shaytan managed to fool him once.

    And Muhammad messed up the Eternal Verses because he was sleepy?

    But yet I'll be eating Zakoom and you will be drinking labaan?  wacko

    Oh and please do find the hadith. Suddenly "Prophet" Bukhari has his uses  Cheesy
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #965 - June 24, 2010, 09:55 AM

    @ BD

    I never said I was a Quran only Muslim and yes, like all of you, I am biased in my use of Hadith. bunny

    Anyway, I remember I read that dreams were one venue of revelations (I'll look up the Hadith). And according to Quran, both the Holy Spirit and Gabriel inspired the Quran to Muhammed.  

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #966 - June 24, 2010, 09:56 AM

    What is the Holy Spirit in the Quran? Is it God?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #967 - June 24, 2010, 09:57 AM

    @ BD

    I never said I was a Quran only Muslim and yes, like all of you, I am biased in my use of Hadith. bunny

    Anyway, I remember I read that dreams were one venue of revelations (I'll look up the Hadith). And according to Quran, both the Holy Spirit and Gabriel inspired the Quran to Muhammed. 


    Debunker Smiley So? The book should be mubeen. The book should be like the eternal tablet in heaven.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #968 - June 24, 2010, 09:58 AM

    Indeed! So why didn't God say something like: "The number you ignorantly think, is X, but the truth is Y"

    As you say God could contradict them - AND show them he knows how many fingers they are holding up behind their back.

    Game, set and match!

    Instead it said: "Some say this some say that but only I know the truth"

    Just imagine for a moment, Debunker - and I know this is hard for you (and I mean that sincerely not in a derogatory manner - as I've been there ) imagine, Muhammad wasn't actually getting messages from God (even if he sincerely thought he was) and spent 15 days stressing about this  - can you see how the response in the Qur'an is exactly what you might expect from someone who doesn't actually know?


    Oh, so you're asking for a miracle? Muhammed acting al like Jesus and telling them their secrets and what they have in mind?

    I never believed Muhammed performed even the smallest of miracles.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #969 - June 24, 2010, 10:01 AM

    Debunker Smiley So? The book should be mubeen. The book should be like the eternal tablet in heaven.


    OMG, the Mubeen argument again! Yes! It is Mubeen! It's 100% CLEAR on what Islam is: utter submission to God. It's 100% clear on worshipping God and only God. It's 100% clear on the fact that God is ABSOLUTE and reigns supreme above all and everything. When it comes to tthe heart and soul of Islam, the Quran is unmistakenably Mubeen!


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #970 - June 24, 2010, 10:06 AM

    @ BD

    I never said I was a Quran only Muslim and yes, like all of you, I am biased in my use of Hadith. bunny

    Anyway, I remember I read that dreams were one venue of revelations (I'll look up the Hadith). And according to Quran, both the Holy Spirit and Gabriel inspired the Quran to Muhammed.  


    What you seem to be saying is similar to the position I once took - that the Qur'an should not be regarded as the infallible and literal word of God, but Muhammad's representation of the visions/experience he had - all filtered through his personality, language, character, context etc...

    I think that is a very defendable position - and one that many Muslims I believe will eventually move to as it removes the belief in the infallibility of the Qur'an and allows Muslims greater flexibility and room to ignore - and even criticise - parts of the Qur'an.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #971 - June 24, 2010, 10:07 AM

    Oh, so you're asking for a miracle? Muhammed acting al like Jesus and telling them their secrets and what they have in mind?

    I never believed Muhammed performed even the smallest of miracles.


    That's fine - though this is what the Jews and the Quraysh were demanding of him in this incident.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #972 - June 24, 2010, 10:08 AM

    Doesn't the Qur'an say it itself is mubeen? This should mean that all verses are clear. How do you understand that to be just the general message?

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #973 - June 24, 2010, 10:11 AM

    What you seem to be saying is similar to the position I once took - that the Qur'an should not be regarded as the 'literal' word of God, but Muhammad's representation of the visions/experience he had - all filtered through his personality, language, character, context etc...

    I think that is a very defendable position - and one that many Muslims I believe will eventually move to as it removes the Qur'an "infallibility" and allows Muslims greater flexibility and room to ignore - and even criticise - parts of the Qur'an.


    I'll come clean, some verses I read do feel as if they were revealed (or as the Quran says: *inspired*) in a dream like state.

    My *guess* is the part revealed by Gabriel is God's direct words, while the part inspired by the Holy Spirit are not His direct words. That's only a guess of course.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #974 - June 24, 2010, 10:14 AM

    I'll come clean, some verses I read do feel as if they were revealed (or as the Quran says: *inspired* in a dream like state).

    My *guess* is the part revealed by Gabriel is God's direct words, while the part inspired by the Holy Spirit are not His direct words. That's only a guess of course.


    And I think it is a reasonable assumption. Insisting on the Qur'an's infallibility is a untenable position.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #975 - June 24, 2010, 10:23 AM

    And you are the one to call our dear abuyunus a heretic? Angry

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #976 - June 24, 2010, 10:28 AM

    @ BD


    I could only find this for now.

    وجاء على لسان عائشة قولها أول مابدىء به رسول الله صلعم من الوحي الرؤيا الصالحة في النوم وكان لا يرى رؤيا إلا  جاءت كفلق الصبح  البخارى

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #977 - June 24, 2010, 10:32 AM

    And I think it is a reasonable assumption. Insisting on the Qur'an's infallibility is a untenable position.


    I never said parts of the Quran were fallible... I only said that parts of it do seem as if they were *inspired* in a dream like state.

    After all, the Quran does use the word *inspired* in general when mentioning the Holy Spirit (I'm not sure this word was used when mentioining Gabriel.)

    But anyway, *inspired by God* necessarily means it's infallible, or at least the message is infallible (the language is always imperfect, anyway).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #978 - June 24, 2010, 10:52 AM

    @ BD


    I could only find this for now.

    وجاء على لسان عائشة قولها أول مابدىء به رسول الله صلعم من الوحي الرؤيا الصالحة في النوم وكان لا يرى رؤيا إلا  جاءت كفلق الصبح  البخارى


    Though I believe that was before his 'proper' revelations.

    btw translation for those who can't read the Arabic: "On the tongue of Aysha is her saying The first time inspiration began for the prophet of God (pbh) was the sound/true vision in sleep and he never saw a vision except that it came like the break of light in the morning." (Bukhari)
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #979 - June 24, 2010, 10:53 AM

    I never said parts of the Quran were fallible... I only said that parts of it do seem as if they were *inspired* in a dream like state.

    After all, the Quran does use the word *inspired* in general when mentioning the Holy Spirit (I'm not sure this word was used when mentioining Gabriel.)

    But anyway, *inspired by God* necessarily means it's infallible, or at least the message is infallible (the language is always imperfect, anyway).


    I see.

    Well you obviously already know my thoughts on how infallible the Qur'an is, so I'll leave it to you to decide for yourself how tenable that position is.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #980 - June 24, 2010, 11:18 AM

    of course I know your position Smiley Otherwise, your disbelief would have been baffling to me Smiley

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #981 - June 24, 2010, 12:42 PM

    Oh, so you're asking for a miracle? Muhammed acting al like Jesus and telling them their secrets and what they have in mind?

    I never believed Muhammed performed even the smallest of miracles.

    Is the buraq part of the hadith or the Quran then?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #982 - June 24, 2010, 12:46 PM

    I'll come clean, some verses I read do feel as if they were revealed (or as the Quran says: *inspired*) in a dream like state.

    My *guess* is the part revealed by Gabriel is God's direct words, while the part inspired by the Holy Spirit are not His direct words. That's only a guess of course.

     mysmilie_977

    That 1 step closer than AbuY, and not so far from our stances.  So you believe some of the Quran might be man-made?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #983 - June 24, 2010, 05:27 PM

    Oh, so you're asking for a miracle? Muhammed acting al like Jesus and telling them their secrets and what they have in mind?

    I never believed Muhammed performed even the smallest of miracles.


    Muhammad didn't, but Allah claims to with his Qur'an. Specifically, revealing what is unknown and part of the 'Unseen.'

    [11:49]
    Those are of the tidings of the Unseen, which We inspire in you. You yourself did not know it, nor did your people before this. So be patient. Truly the sequel is for those who are God-fearing.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #984 - June 24, 2010, 07:53 PM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 5 - Disorder in the Distribution of  Topics

    This feature of glaring fragmentation in the Qur'an resulted in considerable anarchy in the distribution of verses and inability to pursue and explore topics properly. The Qur'an is not an academic book divided into chapters that deal with a specific issue in each one. Just as the names of the Suras do not signify anything important. The chapter of the Cow (Al-Baqara) for example does not talk about cows. It was only named thus because it contains a short story about it and it could have been named any other name. Likewise the chapter of the Bee (Al-Nahl) and the Ant (Al-Naml) etc...

    Since the Qur'an is not divided into topics or sections or chapters, you will find one topic sprinkled over multiple suras and a variety of verses, inserted here and there. I don't know the reason for that other than this must be amongst the requirements of eloquence and miraculousness. Who knows, maybe behind this bizarre design is a mighty wisdom that minds cannot comprehend.

    1. Here's the chapter of Women (Sura al-Nisa') for example. Chapter number 4 with 176 verses. It only deals with the subject of women in 32 verses. What remains of the Sura is a fragmented varied assortment that meanders around individual religious issues, such as prayer, zakat, kindess to parents, family ties, inheritence, forgiveness, accepting the decree of God, Jews, Christians, worshipping Jesus as God, rejection of Polytheism. Plus long narratives about fighting and jihad and making migration in the way of God, which in my view should be attached to Sura Al-Tawba or Sura al-Ahzab, since there is no place for it in this Sura, in fact it is totally out of place in it.

    It's odd that after talking about women in the first twenty five verses, the Qur'an then jumps suddenly to talking about repentance and family ties from verse 26 to 33, then it returns to speaking about women from verse 34 to 35.

    Then it talks about a variety of other topics which are not connected to each other by any single theme, then it stops at verse 126 to resume talking about women, and that is from verse 127 until 130.

    Then it moves on to other topics and matters until the penultimate verse of the sura, i.e. until verse 175. Then it remembers that in the bow is one last arrow so saves it to talk about another subject  that has nothing to do with women, but is shared between women and men and that is inheritance which it didn't complete in the previous verses and I'm referring to Al-Kalala (someone with no heirs), which it left off talking about, until the very last verse of the sura who's number is 176.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #985 - June 24, 2010, 09:31 PM

    Keep 'em comin'  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #986 - June 24, 2010, 09:35 PM

    Keep 'em comin'  Afro


    I wish I could just sit down for a couple of weeks and do nothing but translate this book - without having to do all the other things, work/kids/chores etc... and finish it.

    I just have to snatch a moment here and there!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #987 - June 24, 2010, 10:28 PM

    Well, either way, well all owe you one for spending your free time on this project. Especially as you're working on it by yourself. I'd gladly help if I could. Alas, my Arabic's not what it might be.

    But once again, thanks. I'll buy you a crate of booze once you've finished it  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #988 - June 25, 2010, 06:38 AM

    btw I notice that someone put a shadda on my name in Arabic on the title of the pdf.

    I mean they wrote this:

    حَسَّن

    It should be:

    حسن (Or if you insist on tashkeel, then: حَسَن )
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #989 - June 25, 2010, 07:41 AM

     I think we should put a warnning in the begining of the book that reads; "Read on your own risk. You will never look at the quran the same way, after reading this book" Cheesy

    ...
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