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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 313468 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1020 - June 25, 2010, 10:52 PM

    I can see why you find the Mariya account more convincing as someone who looks at the Qur'an first and Hadith second.

    The strong wording, makes all this about honey laughable.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1021 - June 25, 2010, 11:09 PM

    @ Hassan

    I don't find honey to be the keyword in the honey account, but rather his favorism of Zainab (*sectretly* staying extra time with her).

    But Aicha and Hafsa didn't give him hard time about it (according to these Hadiths), they just *tricked* him to spill out the secret (of his staying longer at Zainab's).

    That's why I find it hard to believe that all of this reproaching in the Quran is because his wives didn't like that he favored Zainab and stayed longer with her. (hence, the Maria account becomes more credible in this case).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1022 - June 25, 2010, 11:16 PM

    Forget hadiths - just look at the words - read it in Arabic, debunker - there was some serious shit going on - and it was some sort of scandal/intrigue involving his wives. Your idea of jealousy may be right - it was some sort of jealousy that's for sure - God and his angels and the pious will be against them and he may divorce them and bring better wives etc... The story of Mariya fits very nicely with the text imho.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1023 - June 25, 2010, 11:21 PM

    @ Hassan

    and that's why I agree that the Maria account is more credible. However, you can't blame Sunnis when they prefer to believe prophet Bukhari and prophet Muslim regarding this issue.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1024 - June 25, 2010, 11:24 PM

    I don't blame anyone for anything - God is the only one who does that.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1025 - June 25, 2010, 11:34 PM

    LOOL! I love you Hassan. Smiley

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1026 - June 25, 2010, 11:38 PM

    Hug hugs
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1027 - June 26, 2010, 05:57 AM

    I just wanted to comment on the last portion Hassan translated from that book. The author discusses fragmentation in Suras of the Quran, as if he was not aware that many Suras weren't revealed all at once (unlike Suras like Yusuf, Ar-Rahman, etc)... the intermittent nature of revelations are the reason of this fragmentations.

    For example in 4:12, which deals with inheritence, the word Kalala was mentioned and then again, at the very end of the Sura, in verse 4:176, Kalala was explained because, as the verse says, Muslims asked questions about Kalala. So 4:176 was revealed because Muslims needed more clarifications about Kalala which was mentioned in 4:12.

    So what's the problem here? Again:
    1- Many Suras were revealed intermittently.
    2- Many verses were revealed in response to situations or questions raised by Muslims.
    3- The names of the Suras, were added by the Companions.. They could have just as arbitrarily numbered them rather than gave them distinguishing names.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1028 - June 26, 2010, 06:44 AM

    @ Islame

    Quote
    Is the buraq part of the hadith or the Quran then?


    Buraq? The Buraq was never mentioned in the Quran! The night journey was mentioned without giving any details as to how it happened. Wait! Actually, the Sura does mention the nature of the journey: It was a dream-like journey, the journey wasn't physical, his soul made the journey, not his body. Check this out:

    17:60
    And when We said to you: Surely your Lord encompasses men; and We did not make the vision which We showed you but a trial for men and the cursed tree in the Quran as well; and We cause them to fear, but it only adds to their great inordinacy.

    This a reference to the night journey... it was a vision, a dream-like. In fact, the word used is *Ru'iya*. This word was used in the Quran strictly to refer to dream-like visions. If you make a search for this word in the Quran, in Arabic, all the verses including this word are discussing dreams:

    رؤيا
    http://www.al-shia.org/html/far/quran/search.php

    Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, the commonly known version of the story involves a flying donkey, etc, but these are all lies... it was a dream-like vision, just like verse 17:60 says... but hey, Muslims want their pretty stories too, so there had to be a flying donkey.

    Anyway, here's a story contradicting the story of the flying donkey:

    وَحَدَّثَنِي بَعْض آلِ أَبِي بَكْر أَنَّ عَائِشَة كَانَتْ تَقُول : مَا فُقِدَ جَسَد رَسُول اللَّه وَلَكِنْ أُسْرِيَ بِرُوحِهِ . قَالَ اِبْن إِسْحَاق فَلَمْ يُنْكَر ذَلِكَ مِنْ قَوْلهَا لِقَوْلِ الْحَسَن إِنَّ هَذِهِ الْآيَة نَزَلَتْ " وَمَا جَعَلْنَا الرُّؤْيَا الَّتِي أَرَيْنَاك إِلَّا فِتْنَة لِلنَّاسِ " وَلِقَوْلِ اللَّه فِي الْخَبَر عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيم " إِنِّي أَرَى فِي الْمَنَام أَنِّي أَذْبَحك فَانْظُرْ مَاذَا تَرَى " قَالَ ثُمَّ مَضَى عَلَى ذَلِكَ فَعَرَفْت أَنَّ الْوَحْي يَأْتِي لِلْأَنْبِيَاءِ مِنْ اللَّه أَيْقَاظًا وَنِيَامًا فَكَانَ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُول " تَنَام عَيْنَايَ وَقَلْبِي يَقْظَان "

    And by the way, NOT ALL Sunni Scholars agree on the the flying donkey story, some of them do believe it was a vision/dream-like journey (based on the verse 17:60 and that other account I posted above).

    http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%86%D8%A7_%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF_%D8%B5%D9%84%D9%89_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87_%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%87_%D9%88%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%85/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A1_%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AC_%D8%B3%D9%86%D8%A9_621_%D9%85

    You have to forgive me for giving links in Arabic.. I'm tired of looking for sources in Arabic and then looking for them in English too. Anyway, if you don't believe me, ask Hassan to check out the links.

    Quote
    That 1 step closer than AbuY, and not so far from our stances.  So you believe some of the Quran might be man-made?

    I wonder how could you reach this conclusion from what I said!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1029 - June 26, 2010, 06:50 AM

    @ Zebedee

    Quote
    Muhammad didn't, but Allah claims to with his Qur'an. Specifically, revealing what is unknown and part of the 'Unseen.'

    [11:49]
    Those are of the tidings of the Unseen, which We inspire in you. You yourself did not know it, nor did your people before this. So be patient. Truly the sequel is for those who are God-fearing.


    Huh?

    Did you read the previous verse? It was talking about the stories of the prophets (being unkown to Muhammed and his people).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1030 - June 26, 2010, 09:56 AM

    I just wanted to comment on the last portion Hassan translated from that book. The author discusses fragmentation in Suras of the Quran, as if he was not aware that many Suras weren't revealed all at once (unlike Suras like Yusuf, Ar-Rahman, etc)... the intermittent nature of revelations are the reason of this fragmentations.

    For example in 4:12, which deals with inheritence, the word Kalala was mentioned and then again, at the very end of the Sura, in verse 4:176, Kalala was explained because, as the verse says, Muslims asked questions about Kalala. So 4:176 was revealed because Muslims needed more clarifications about Kalala which was mentioned in 4:12.

    So what's the problem here? Again:
    1- Many Suras were revealed intermittently.
    2- Many verses were revealed in response to situations or questions raised by Muslims.
    3- The names of the Suras, were added by the Companions.. They could have just as arbitrarily numbered them rather than gave them distinguishing names.


    Of course the author is aware of this, but as you know the Qur'an was supposedly arranged under divine inspiration and not in order of revelation.

    Yes, it makes sense - at the time - to reveal verses as and when the people at the time needed them. (Though even that doesn't account for all the disparities). But it makes no sense to leave this disorder and fragmented arrangement for the rest - and majority - of mankind!

    In the example you gave - why have verses about Kalala separated like that for the rest of mankind  until the day of Judgment?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1031 - June 26, 2010, 09:59 AM

    But why is  that in that order?

    Because a written Quran was not collected during Muhammad's life? I heard Ali had collected one, but was not allowed to use his.

    How could Muhammad not see ahead? More importantly, how could God not see ahead?

    Did Muhammad not expect to make it this far? Was it because of the nask concept he never wrote the Quran down and smiled anytime Abu Bakr asked him to have the Quran written down?

    Because he knew it's better to keep it flexible? So he abrogate some verses? Complete others?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1032 - June 26, 2010, 10:16 AM

    @ Zebedee

    Huh?

    Did you read the previous verse? It was talking about the stories of the prophets (being unkown to Muhammed and his people).


    The point was that Allah did reveal stuff that was unknown to Muhammad and those around them. So, in that case, why didn't he reveal what was in the Unseen about the Sleepers, when he could easily have done so?

    It would have been a lot more convincing than what's in the Qur'an now; which as I said, is something that any fraudster could have pulled off.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1033 - June 26, 2010, 07:35 PM

    Of course the author is aware of this, but as you know the Qur'an was supposedly arranged under divine inspiration and not in order of revelation.

    Yes, it makes sense - at the time - to reveal verses as and when the people at the time needed them. (Though even that doesn't account for all the disparities). But it makes no sense to leave this disorder and fragmented arrangement for the rest - and majority - of mankind!

    In the example you gave - why have verses about Kalala separated like that for the rest of mankind  until the day of Judgment?


    Actually, I don't see a problem with leaving the verses in the order they were revealed. The only problem that I see is that the Surahs weren't left in the order they were revealed.

    Knowing that Suras were revealed intermittently one should have no problem understanding the fragmentation. But like I said, if only the Suras were left in the order they were revealed too.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1034 - June 26, 2010, 07:38 PM

    The point was that Allah did reveal stuff that was unknown to Muhammad and those around them. So, in that case, why didn't he reveal what was in the Unseen about the Sleepers, when he could easily have done so?

    It would have been a lot more convincing than what's in the Qur'an now; which as I said, is something that any fraudster could have pulled off.


    The (changed) Biblical stories were unknown to Muhammed, but they were known to the people of the book.

    Revealing what the Jews thought was the number of the sleepers amounts to a miracle, something Muhammed never performed.

    Yes, the Quran could have revealed any number and it would have been impossible to prove the revelation to be either wrong or right.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1035 - June 26, 2010, 11:23 PM

    Actually, I don't see a problem with leaving the verses in the order they were revealed. The only problem that I see is that the Surahs weren't left in the order they were revealed.

    Knowing that Suras were revealed intermittently one should have no problem understanding the fragmentation. But like I said, if only the Suras were left in the order they were revealed too.

    +1 particuarly if Allah wants us to interpret Meccan surahs differently from Medinan surahs.  Especially Quran-onlies, without the hadith how could you ever know?

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1036 - June 27, 2010, 11:43 AM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 5 - Disorder in the Distribution of  Topics. (Cont...)

    2. There are many other Suras in the Qur'an that talk about women, such as Sura al-Ahzab for example, Chapter 33, containing 73 verses. This Sura begins with a general preamble from verse 1 to 3 and then from 4 to 6 it speaks about marriage and adoption. Then comes an interjected seventh verse that has no connection to what precedes it nor what comes after. From verse 8 to 27 it talks about fighting and jihad. Then it returns to talking about about women and marriage and adoption from verse 28 until 38. Then it jumps to an interjected verse, which is verse 39. From verse 40 until 48 is some beautiful speech about Muhammad which in my opinion is amongst the occasional outstanding pieces that we find in the Qur'an - In my opinion these verses should be in Sura Muhammad, which is chapter 47 in the Qur'an, but God's wisdom demands that it should be here. From verse 49 to 59 it returns to talking about women, marriage and adoption, and wives of the prophet with some interjections that the Qur'an has got us accustomed to expecting. From verse 60 until the end of the Sura is an assorted cocktail that hardly one page of the Qur'an is free from.

    Regarding the presence of the passage about Muhammad in this sura, in verses which I said are amongst the outstanding verses, indeed it's presence in this place detracts from it's excellence and takes away much of it's beauty. Perhaps this is part of eloquence and signs of miraculousness! This can be applied to a large number of the Qur'an's excellent verses, for many excellent verses have had their radiance hidden through poor choice of positioning - lost under a huge pile of incongruous material that has no theme, substance, shape, nor purpose. Like a beautiful woman from a bad origin.*

    Likewise we see that the the arrangement of the verses in the Qur'an is very primitive and we can find the explanation for this strange phenomena in the Abrogator and the Abrogated in the Qur'an. God Almighty said:

    "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?" (2:106)

    For indeed a great deal of the Qur'an has gone, (47). In fact Al-Suyuti praised Abrogation saying that it is amongst the wisdoms that God favoured this Ummah with, to make things easier.

    Suyuti relates many examples of what Uthman left out when he was collecting the Qur'an, on the basis that it was abrogated. Regarding this is the Hadith of Aysha who said: "When Sura al-Ahzab was recited at the time of the prophet it had two hundred verses," (48) Though now it has 73 verses only. Just as al-Suyuti also mentioned that a whole sura was revealed and then removed. (49)

    This Abrogation has distorted the Qur'an and left it fractured, making it impossible to stitch together or coalesce its parts. These shreds are what constitutes the Qur'an that has reached us today.

    The disarray and glaring fragmentation we see in the Qur'an, could be the inevitable result of multiple suras in one sura. Or the remainder of deleted suras of which only these fragments remain. Or perhaps they are drafts of verses that should have been revised and reviewed, but the sudden death of the prophet, afflicted by the poison that the the Jewish woman slipped into his food, didn't allow him to complete the required revisions.

    My view is that this disarray in the Qur'an must to be faced by firm, brave action to return order to the disordered verses that have no link between them and the ones scattered here and there in hundreds of pages that the Mushaf (NB: name for the Qur'an) contains between it's covers. There must be an initiative to sort the muddle of these wildly disparate verses and re-unify them into a new, rational layout of order, composition and arrangement of chapters that responds to the demands of the age and create unity between this huge quantity of disparate muddle and sweep away the staleness between its parts which have no beginning nor end, nor head nor foot.

    Throughout fourteen centuries not one voice was raised to rectify this defect, just as in India not one voice was raised in protest over bathing in the holy river at religious festivals or seeking healing, even though it's a filthy river that increases the sickness of the sick. Likewise no voice was raised in complaint against the cows who are let free to come and go as they please, grazing in the streets and public places, wandering between houses and shops without anyone being allowed to touch them, in a country where the starving see his livestock assets destroyed in front of him but silently does nothing. This despite that my comparison with Hindus is not a precise one.

    Is this disorder in the Qur'an from the All-Wise, All-Knowing One? Oh people use your minds and don't get left behind in the race. Is this amongst the signs of miraculousness? Is there not a rational one amongst you?

    How much we are in need of a new Qur'an that will do away with the old Qur'an and pull it up by the roots! Yes indeed we are in need of a new Qur'an that will keep pace with the age and progression and evolution of events after Nietzsche declared the death of the old God and the defeat of his dominion and sovereignty. Forget the old Qur'an, for there is no use in trying to patch-up the decrepit if we can bring about something new.

    Indeed the Qur'an was once a breakthrough, but now it has become burnt-out. It was the revolution of revolutions in a time that lacked revolutions. The Qur'an, in it's time, was amongst the most important factors for progress. But today it has become an obstacle to all progress. This astonishing, baffling and peculiar hopping about that our Arab ancestors transmitted to us from the margin of history to the dawn of history, and once inspired them to become innovators of the age, masters of their time. If it wasn't for the Qur'an they would have remained groping about aimlessly in their stagnant plight till the day of Resurrection. It is as though the Qur'an propelled them to engage with the events of the time and threw them into the vast ocean of world affairs and helped them conquer new horizons.

    Yes the Qur'an was once a a revolution, but, like all revolutions, it is a revolution for a limited time only. Then it must make it's way to the museum. Like all revolutions, it eventually becomes reactionary. The revolution has been replaced by a non-revolution. Yet we stubbornly insist on deluding ourselves that the revolution is still taking place. We are now sitting with our Qur'an in the darkness of the museum, brooding over memories of our life when we existed outside the museum. Every time we raise our heads and try to get out of the museum we are thrown back in it. It has been centuries since we lived in the time of revolution. We will never be able to see the truth unless we believe in truth and embrace it, for that alone will enable us to see the true nature of things without the pretense and self-deception.

    The problems of the present generations of this nation cannot be solved in the same way as they were for the first generations. This time is a different time and the people are a different people and the needs and expectations are not the needs and expectations of the past. But the regressive ones amongst us insist  on living with ghosts and flirting with the spirits of the past, and refusal to believe that the ghosts are ghosts. That is the power of ghosts to those who believe in ghosts!

    ***


    * Reference to the hadith: “Beware of the green manure.” The Companions asked: “What is the green manure?” He said: “A beautiful woman of bad origin (i.e. upbringing).” (Al-Daraqutni)

    (47) Jalal al-Din Al-Suyuti, The Perfect Guide to the Sciences of the Qur'an, 2/25.
    (48) The previous reference.
    (49) The previous reference.



    _____________________


    This completes section 5 of chapter 4. Next is section 6 "Ambiguity in the Qur'an."

    @Aziz if you see this:* then that means it is my own note - I will leave it to you to add them to our appendix if you see fit.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1037 - June 27, 2010, 05:43 PM

    The revolution has been replaced by a non-revolution.


    Correction:

    The revolution has been replaced by an anti-revolution.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1038 - June 27, 2010, 07:52 PM

    I don't know why but I sometimes get the feeling the author is not Egyptian, but Lebanese or Syrian. Just little expressions and vocab that remind me of language I have seen from that part of the Arab world.

    I could be totally wrong of course.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1039 - June 27, 2010, 10:29 PM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 5 - Disorder in the Distribution of  Topics. (Cont...)


    This part was particularly good.

    Yes the Qur'an was once a revolution, but, like all revolutions, it is a revolution for a limited time only. Then it must make it's way to the museum. Like all revolutions, it eventually becomes reactionary. The revolution has been replaced by a non-revolution.


    Yep.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1040 - June 29, 2010, 10:15 AM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 6 - Ambiguity in the Qur'an.

    Clarity of speech comes from clarity of vision and clear vision is formulated by lucid thought and expression. But ambiguous expression only leads to ambiguous meaning. Many verses in the Qur'an are the constructed of ambiguous material and so it doesn't appeal to the mind or become clear to the intellect. Enigmas that strut about in front of you without you knowing what they are about. Words transformed into unintelligible cryptic messages that baffle the mind. They opened the door wide to folk tales, mythical fantasies, Isra'iliyat (NB: Tales originating from Judeo-Christian traditions), the study of secret knowledge and all manner of weird meanings, and strange accounts. Every commentator who dived in to discover their meaning came out with a precious pearl of wisdom!!

    1. The first of these puzzles are the the Abbreviated Letters (al-Muqatta`at) at the beginning of some of the Suras.

    Alif, Lam, Mim. (The Cow, The Family of 'Imran, the Spider, the Romans, Luqman, the Prostration.)

    Alif, Lam, Mim, Sad. (the Heights)

    Alif, Lam, Ra'. (Jonah, Hud, Joseph, Abraham, The Rocky Tract,)

    Alif, Lam, Mim, Ra'. ( Thunder)

    Kaf, Ha', Ya', 'Ain, Sad. (Mary)

    Ta', Ha'. (Ta Ha)

    Ta', Sin, Mim. (The Poets, The Stories.)

    Ta', Sin. (The Ant.)

    Ya', Sin (Yasin)

    Sad (Sad)

    Ha', Mim, 'Ain, Sin, Qaf. (The Consultation)

    Qaf (Qaf)

    Ha', Mim. (Forgiver, Expounded, the Ornaments, the Smoke, the Crouching, The Winding Sand-Tracts.)

    Nun. (the Pen.)

    What are these puzzles? Is this part of the Qur'an 'whose verses have been expounded in a clear Arabic tongue' ? (Qur'anic ref). Where is the clarity, Oh people? Is it in the conundrums? Has eloquence in the Qur'an been transformed into a collection of letters that don't mean anything to us, or perhaps He got confused - May He be Glorified - and thought that we are like Him and encompass all things with knowledge as if we are Him and He is us? Is miraculousness to baffle people? One of the most important conditions of eloquence is that people must understand what you are saying. Perhaps the one who revealed this has an opposite opinion to that? Enlighten me, please, if you can?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1041 - June 29, 2010, 11:22 AM

    Great.

    Could you in the future transliterate the ayins and hamzas please? Ayin = `, hamza = ´.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1042 - June 29, 2010, 12:48 PM

    Will do Smiley
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1043 - June 29, 2010, 04:37 PM

    Great.

    Could you in the future transliterate the ayins and hamzas please? Ayin = `, hamza = ´.


    I can't see them on my keyboard. The only one I can see is this one: '
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1044 - June 29, 2010, 04:42 PM

    This part was particularly good.

    Yep.


    You know I said a similar thing quite a while ago.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1045 - June 29, 2010, 05:09 PM

    Hm, the English keyboard apparently only has `, but not ´. It's the key beneath the Escape key.

    Well, just use ' instead of ´ then...

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1046 - June 29, 2010, 05:19 PM

    I only have: '
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1047 - June 29, 2010, 05:41 PM

    Ah, forgot that you have a Mac. But it should have those characters. Question is where? Smiley

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1048 - June 29, 2010, 05:53 PM

    Hassan, is your keyboard similar to this?
    http://nedbatchelder.com/pix/mackeyboard.jpg

    Here it's beneath the Escape key. Where the tilde is. Press Shift plus that key to get `.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1049 - June 29, 2010, 06:02 PM

    no mines this:

    http://mac.tgbus.com/macbook/images/design_keyboard20080226.jpg
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