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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 313380 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1080 - July 12, 2010, 09:01 PM

    Aziz, what on earth is this in the notes?:

    "The previous reference". Is it something to help you edit it or is it meant to be included in the final version? It's awful Smiley
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1081 - July 12, 2010, 09:10 PM

    I'm not completely sure, but I think that's exactly what's in the Arabic original. And Hassan translates it like that...

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1082 - July 12, 2010, 09:15 PM

    I'm not completely sure, but I think that's exactly what's in the Arabic original. And Hassan translates it like that...


    Use 'ibid.' instead or so I would recommend. Sorry I'm a nitpicker with stuff like that. But otherwise it generally looks great  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1083 - July 12, 2010, 09:21 PM

    Thanks for the suggestion. Smiley

    I'll change it if Hassan also thinks it's okay.

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1084 - July 12, 2010, 11:41 PM

    Yes that's fine - I just translated it literally.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1085 - July 13, 2010, 07:36 PM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 8 - Weakness of the Qurʾān.

    The final nail in the coffin regarding the inadequacy of the Qur'an is it's (linguistic) weakness. Yes, weakness! Indeed we find it very hard to accept this and you will accuse me of bias against the book of Allah. For the Qur'an is the epitome of eloquence, pure speech and elucidation to the extent that millions upon millions believe that its language is of super-human nature. So how can it be weak when the enemies of the Qur'an did not notice that when they were all hankering after flaws? This is unreasonable, this is unreasonable!

    However, these enemies either died in the battles that broke out between the Muslims and the Polytheists and so their objections were lost or destroyed and have not reached us. Or they entered Islam amongst those who entered and were absorbed into the general pious atmosphere with its enormous defensive imperatives and apologetic mechanisms and they resorted to quoting evidence from Jahiliyyah (Pre-Islamic) poetry to attest to the soundness of the weak text. They even celebrated that it contains eloquent nuances and great wisdoms that our minds cannot comprehend.

    By itself faith is able to do wonders, but what if it is aided by a mind well versed in study and speculation. On top of that, (what if) this weak (speech) was repeated continuously to the extent that daily usage polished it and constant repetition sanctified it with sacredness and smoothed out its unevenness and covered it's flaws with embellishment. After this, it then reaches the status of the inherited legacy, the intimately familiar, and the cultural conventions. Thus, despite me or you or despite even the greatest scholars of language and masters of eloquence and experts in their field, it gains access to the very heart of the Arabic language and its innermost sanctity, with no-one having any say or choice about it. It then becomes part of linguistic good-taste and is produced as an example and yardstick for comparison. So take heed oh those of insight!!

    1. He Most High said in his detailing His bounty towards man and the ungratefulness of man to this bounty:

    "He it is Who makes you travel by land and sea; until when you are in the ships, and they sail on with them in a pleasant breeze, and they rejoice, a violent wind overtakes them and the waves come on them from everywhere, and they become certain (or think) that they will be overwhelmed, they call to Allah, making their faith pure for Him. If you deliver us from this, we will most certainly be of the grateful ones.  But when He delivers them, lo! behold! they rebel in the earth wrongfully." (10:22-23)

    The aspect of weakness - nay feebleness - in the previous verses is the poor use of pronouns which if had come from you or I would be attributed to our ignorance, and they would accuse us of lack of linguistic knowledge and advise us to study the science of grammar afresh. But if it comes from the Qur'an then it is eloquence - nay, they dedicate to it, its very own branch, from the branches of eloquence.

    The branch that concerns us here is the branch of Iltifaat (Sudden Transition/Change)!!  Here is the previous verse again so you can see where the error is, that is if you haven't already noticed it by yourself, because it is a screaming error that it is not possible for anyone to hear without it jarring in his ears:

    "He it is Who makes you travel by land and sea; until when you are in the ships, and they sail with them" - Instead of, "and they sail with you", and "you rejoice" instead of "they rejoice".

    Believe it or not this jarring is part of the eloquence of the Qur'an. If it wasn't for these two lame (words) the eloquence of the Qur'an would not be be apparent. It's not jarring, except in our twisted minds. It is "Iltifaat" (Sudden Transition/Change) and "Iltifaat" is a branch of the branches of eloquence that was invented so as to provide an escape route for this verse and its like.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1086 - July 13, 2010, 07:44 PM

    Ayoooo, how's it going Hass? Smiley

    hey, just a question to this part:

    Quote
    ...I am referring to (ظَنّ "Thanna"). This verb can give a meaning of doubt and also give a meaning of certainty. Despite this, the Qur'an has no problem using it...


    Do you think we should include a *-footnote that gives examples of verbs that would have been better?

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1087 - July 13, 2010, 07:57 PM

    Sounds like a good idea - maybe later. I just want to concentrate on straight translating what's in front of me for now - I have many other dramas going on in my life at the moment and don't want to have to think about anything else.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1088 - July 13, 2010, 08:04 PM

    btw the verb Thanna was used in the verse above which is why I put (or think) in brackets. It could mean either they were certain they were going to die or thought they may die. It's not clear. A word like muqinoon for example would show they were certain and muftakireen would mean they thought - Allah could have used either - but it seems he prefers ambiguity in the book that makes things clear.  grin12
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1089 - July 13, 2010, 08:12 PM

    Okay, np bro. Looks like a task for other Arabic speakers here to me. Lazy bastards! grin12

    That word is interesting. It's also used in Turkish, at least I believe it's so judging from the similarity. The Turkish word is "zan" (noun) and "zan etmek"/"zannetmek" is the verb. It means to suppose or to think or to guess etc.

    Smiley

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1090 - July 13, 2010, 08:18 PM

    Yes it's the same word - and there is a Hadith which says:

    ان بعض الظن اثم

    "Indeed some doubt/suspicion is a sin" (i.e. you shouldn't be too suspicious of others.)
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1091 - July 13, 2010, 08:30 PM

    Ayoooo, how's it going Hass? Smiley

    hey, just a question to this part:

    Do you think we should include a *-footnote that gives examples of verbs that would have been better?


    I can't see what youn mean when you said "thanna" means also "certainty". I think, as I understand it from Arabic it only means: "think" or "guess"!

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1092 - July 13, 2010, 08:35 PM

    I can't see what youn mean when you said "thanna" means also "certainty". I think, as I understand it from Arabic it only means: "think" or "guess"!


    Verse 46 0f al-Baqara:

    الَّذِينَ يَظُنُّونَ أَنَّهُمْ مُلَاقُو رَبِّهِمْ وَأَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

    002.046
    YUSUFALI: Who bear in mind the certainty that they are to meet their Lord, and that they are to return to Him.
    PICKTHAL: Who know that they will have to meet their Lord, and that unto Him they are returning.
    SHAKIR: Who know that they shall meet their Lord and that they shall return to Him.



    From Taseer Jalayn:

    "الذين يظنون" يوقنون "أنهم ملاقو ربهم" بالبعث "وأنهم إليه راجعون" في الآخرة فيجازيهم
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1093 - July 13, 2010, 09:28 PM

    Verse 46 0f al-Baqara:

    الَّذِينَ يَظُنُّونَ أَنَّهُمْ مُلَاقُو رَبِّهِمْ وَأَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

    002.046
    YUSUFALI: Who bear in mind the certainty that they are to meet their Lord, and that they are to return to Him.
    PICKTHAL: Who know that they will have to meet their Lord, and that unto Him they are returning.
    SHAKIR: Who know that they shall meet their Lord and that they shall return to Him.



    From Taseer Jalayn:

    "الذين يظنون" يوقنون "أنهم ملاقو ربهم" بالبعث "وأنهم إليه راجعون" في الآخرة فيجازيهم


    Thanks Hassan, I never thought the word "Thanna" could mean that. I dont think many Arabic speaking people know that either. To me that wrod only means one thing.... "Guess" or "Think".

    أنا أظن أنك من بريطانيا = I think you are from Britain.

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1094 - July 13, 2010, 09:48 PM

    أنا أظن أنك من بريطانيا


    Lol, I actually understood that  dance
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1095 - July 13, 2010, 10:35 PM

    Thanks Hassan, I never thought the word "Thanna" could mean that. I dont think many Arabic speaking people know that either. To me that wrod only means one thing.... "Guess" or "Think".

    أنا أظن أنك من بريطانيا = I think you are from Britain.


    Your quite right - it is used now to mean think/guess - but this shows you that Arabic has changed as I said before. Modern Literary Arabic although commonly called Fusha is not the same as the Arabic of the 7th century.

    And don't get me started on colloquial  grin12
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1096 - July 14, 2010, 06:27 PM

    Your quite right - it is used now to mean think/guess - but this shows you that Arabic has changed as I said before. Modern Literary Arabic although commonly called Fusha is not the same as the Arabic of the 7th century.

    And don't get me started on colloquial  grin12


    Yes actually, as you must very well know, the Arabic we speak is not the same people from other Arabic countries speak. Saudies will find it very difficult to understand what morrocans would say. Also, tunisians will find what yemenis say gibberish. So what on earth is the meaning of the verse that says: "we have sent it in a clear Arabic tongue"?

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1097 - July 14, 2010, 07:09 PM

    Weeell, you know... the Qur'an was just a giant troll-bomb on Arabia. Muhammad just didn't give a crap about the aftermath. Smiley

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1098 - July 15, 2010, 10:23 PM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 8 - Weakness of the Qurʾān (cont...)

    2. There is another branch called "The Style of the All-Wise". The prophet was asked about the phases of the moon, i.e. the changing appearance of the moon from one day to another. Instead of explaining it to them in a way they could understand - and if he did that, then that would have been a real miracle - he evaded the answer they hoped to hear from the One who created the phases of the moon and instead received from him a disappointing reply that both the old and young already know:

    "They ask you concerning the phases of the moon, say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage." (2:189) (59)

    What an extraordinary astonishing answer! God created the phases of the moon so that people can count time for (their affairs such as) agriculture, trade, menstrual periods of their women, when to fast and break fast and for their pilgrimage to the sacred house - as the exegetes say! Fine. If that is the case, then I wonder how we can we explain the changing appearance of the moon - nay the moons - around Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and the other planets? Are there humans like us on these planets who perform Hajj to the Holy Ka'ba and have concerns and affairs as we do, such as our women who have menstruation cycles and (count the time when) they are free from menstruation, ready for prayer and fasting?

    The truth is that the worst method of counting time is to count it by Lunar phases which we have suffered from and which has caused a division which there is no hope of repairing. Not to mention that this reply is a glaring affirmation of a geocentric universe, and a single sun and a single moon, and single form of worship and religious rites. Thus the Qur'an diverted them from what they were actually asking about, towards that which they were not asking about and (diverted them) from gaining knowledge about things they didn't know to things they already knew.

    The knowledgeable in eloquence were truly shocked by this reply and yet they couldn't be shocked. How could they be shocked when it has come from the presence of an All-Wise and All-Knowing? So they retreated (like sheep) to the pen and exchanged the duty to be critical so that truth and correct understanding may prevail in exchange for idiocy and stupidity. Indeed Allah avoided the answer, on the pretext of disciplining, guiding and teaching them the right way to ask a question, never mind that this reply displays contempt and scorn towards the questioner. In my view it is a reply that has no meaning other than an attempt to stifle questioning. It's as though asking questions is an unforgivable sin. It is a blatant disregard for mankind's longing to understand the reasons behind what we see. Allah is the All-Wise who knows the needs of his servants and he makes clear to us the style by which we must address Him. This is the "Style of the All-Wise" and it is also a branch from amongst the branches of Eloquence.

    This poor (art of) eloquence! How many have spoken falsely in it's name!! How many have told lies and fabrications about it!!

    It seems al-Mutanabbi was well aware of this game (played by the scholars of language) for his poetry was criticised by some of the grammarians   when he made a grammatical mistake. Al-Mutanabbi fumed with rage and replied to the grammarian, saying with audacious self-confidence: "It is up to me to say (what I like) and up to you to cite (evidence of it being correct)", with the implication: "Isn't that what you do with the Qur'an? Rules are for the little people as for the masters, they can get away with what the little people can't.  Get lost!  Go back to your tribe and people of little ones!"

    In my opinion the most important reason for the flourishing of the science of eloquence in Islam is the defence of the Qur'an in any way possible and to provide solutions to the flaws in it - not for the pure sake of knowledge or truth or elucidation. For they came across so much in it (the Qur'an) that bewildered them and troubled their minds. If it was in any other book it would have caused them to doubt it, and it would have been publicly defamed to an extreme extent. But what can they do, for it has been revealed by an Almighty, All-Knowing One. "An Arabic Qur'an without crookedness" (39:28) This is the incontestable of incontestables that no Muslim can forsake.

    Every Muslim of sincere faith will doubt himself rather than doubt his Qur'an, no matter what thoughts come to his mind about the Qur'an, it is not possible to defame the Qur'an or even pause to question it. So here comes the science of eloquence, and elucidation and marvels... to repair what has ruptured, mend what has broken, fill in the holes, and fix what is broken, come apart and disordered. So that there is no rupture nor gaps, nor cracks, nor holes in the Qur'an. It is only the shortcomings of our human minds. The science of Eloquence and Elucidation can vouch for complete verification in this matter.

    With nonsense and sophistry and waffling you can discover what you want and hide what you want. You can do what you want and explain what you want, and convey what you want and smooth out every crookedness you want.

    I always say: Give me a madman and I can bring out the wisdoms of the first and last, from his speech. But it appears that the exegetes (mufassirun) who have been raised on more than one school of the schools of pure speech and eloquence and bore the responsibilities of the embellishment of eloquence and marvels and meanings... beat me to it by a long way!

    _______________________

    (59) Note this verse does not strictly fall into the category of weak speech but is cited here to highlight the sophistry, waffling and patching-up.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1099 - July 15, 2010, 10:24 PM

    Weeell, you know... the Qur'an was just a giant troll-bomb on Arabia. Muhammad just didn't give a crap about the aftermath. Smiley


    you just made muhammad look cool

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1100 - July 15, 2010, 10:25 PM

    I love this book lol

    This last bit is great - I really enjoyed reading it in Arabic - I hope I managed to convey it fully.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1101 - July 15, 2010, 10:48 PM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 8 - Weakness of the Qurʾān (cont...)

    ...



    haha!

    Good stuff, Mr Hassan  Afro

    Mod-edit: God fucking damnit! Can't you people use the fucking delete key when quoting stuff?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1102 - July 21, 2010, 09:24 AM

    Sorry, guys I've been too busy with my house move on Friday to sit down and do any translating. Will get back to it in a week or so... inshallah!  grin12
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1103 - August 04, 2010, 08:50 PM

    I love this book and am really keen to finish it, but my present circumstances just don't allow me the time - so I am going to have to put it on a back-burner until things change.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1104 - August 04, 2010, 09:02 PM

    Hope that won't be too long into the future. Wink hugs

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1105 - August 13, 2010, 08:14 AM

    I love this book and am really keen to finish it, but my present circumstances just don't allow me the time - so I am going to have to put it on a back-burner until things change.


    Hassan, how many chapters left? I think we are almost finished, right?

    One day it will be published, and there will be one famous author that goes by the name: Haj Hasanov Radwanski  Afro he will surely be interviewed by BBC, CNN, and possibly Oprah.  grin12

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1106 - August 13, 2010, 08:26 AM

    Dear All, I found a better PDF file where the pages are displayed as single pages. It is larger than the previous (4 MB) version I uploded earlier. This one is 32 MB in size. I am still searching about the author or if there are Word Doc versions available or not but unsuccessful so far.

    The author could well be dead by now as he was born in 1927. Or maybe the name Abas Abdulnoor is not his real name. I am still looking!

    Here is the better version: My Ordeal With The Quran


    Hey, this is unfair, why would wikiupload remove the book?  finmad as far as I can tell, it does not have copyright on it. It's good that Aziz you have it on our servers.

    Here is the link: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/docs/Mi7naty_Ma3a_Alquran.pdf

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1107 - August 13, 2010, 02:04 PM

    Hey, this is unfair, why would wikiupload remove the book?

    Because they have to be realistic like any other file-hoster. That means, they will delete a file when it hasn't been downloaded for a certain period of time (I guess 30 days or so.)
    No downloaders -> the file gets "stale" -> it is removed.

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1108 - August 13, 2010, 04:52 PM

    Oh ok, in that case, they are forgiven...  Afro

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1109 - August 13, 2010, 07:35 PM

    Because they have to be realistic like any other file-hoster. That means, they will delete a file when it hasn't been downloaded for a certain period of time (I guess 30 days or so.)
    No downloaders -> the file gets "stale" -> it is removed.

    Oh damn. I guess you could schedule a cron job to download the file once a month next time.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
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