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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 313322 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1140 - October 03, 2010, 02:25 PM

    Another thought - since we're playing 'guess who' - is that he may not even be an Arab ex-Muslim, but a European/Western ex-Muslim - but obviously with excellent knowledge of Islam, Qur'an, Arabic, and Arabic literature etc...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1141 - October 03, 2010, 02:33 PM

    Another thought - since we're playing 'guess who' - is that he may not even be an Arab ex-Muslim, but a European/Western ex-Muslim - but obviously with excellent knowledge of Islam, Qur'an, Arabic, and Arabic literature etc...

    I get the impression that he was born & raised in an Arab country.  Its the way he writes with hyperbole & slightly poetic / reactionary/contentious, I find in the west the writing style is more impersonal/diplomatic/detached..

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1142 - October 03, 2010, 02:43 PM

    I get the impression that he was born & raised in an Arab country.  Its the way he writes with hyperbole & slightly poetic / reactionary/contentious, I find in the west the writing style is more impersonal/diplomatic/detached..


    True - but those who have learnt Arabic to a such a high and proficient level would also write in such a style - since that is the Arabic style.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1143 - October 03, 2010, 02:48 PM

    I must admit I identify with him a great deal - and after all I was born and brought up in the west, yet I understand this style of writing. Anyone who knows both languages well will write the same thing but in a different style because of the needs of that language. My videos in Arabic for example were different from my vids in English.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1144 - October 03, 2010, 02:55 PM

    I must admit I identify with him a great deal - and after all I was born and brought up in the west, yet I understand this style of writing. Anyone who knows both languages well will write the same thing but in a different style because of the needs of that language. My videos in Arabic for example were different from my vids in English.

    I know what you mean.  But even if you wrote in Arabic, would you write in as forthwright a fashion as he has?  Considering what I said earlier, what makes you think its more likely he was brought up in the west? 

    Also consider he studied Islam academically abroad, a practise more normal in an Islamic country.

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1145 - October 03, 2010, 03:05 PM

    I know what you mean.  But even if you wrote in Arabic, would you write in as forthwright a fashion as he has?  Considering what I said earlier, what makes you think its more likely he was brought up in the west? 

    Also consider he studied Islam academically abroad, a practise more normal in an Islamic country.


    No, I couldn't have written it as well as he has.

    Not sure what makes me think that he may be from the West (he may be an Arab living in the West), but I think it's just a few phrases he uses that make me wonder.

    You could ask, why would he write in Arabic and not English - but you must remember that one cannot fully critique the language of the Qur'an in English.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1146 - October 03, 2010, 03:32 PM

    Maybe.  It did say somewhere, unless I am confusing it with another ( I know the original accounts could be totally bull), that he studied at al-azhar & later studied philosphy or something in France.  Thats when he started seriously questioning the whole thing.

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1147 - October 03, 2010, 03:33 PM

    Anyway that's just a thought - in all probability he is an Arab living in an Arab country - he certainly makes assumptions about his readers that only someone steeped in the Arabic & Islamic tradition would make.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1148 - October 03, 2010, 03:37 PM

    He's certainly a well educated man, whether he is native arab or not.

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1149 - October 03, 2010, 03:37 PM

    Maybe.  It did say somewhere, unless I am confusing it with another ( I know the original accounts could be totally bull), that he studied at al-azhar & later studied philosphy or something in France.  Thats when he started seriously questioning the whole thing.


    I don't think the bio details given are accurate - and that is quite understandable. He may have given details that are similar but not exactly the same so as not to be identified.

    Until we know who the guy really is, we'll never know.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1150 - October 03, 2010, 03:37 PM

    He's certainly a well educated man, whether he is native arab or not.


    Without a shadow of doubt!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1151 - October 03, 2010, 09:17 PM

    The exegetes (Mufassirun) were confused when it came to understanding these verses that extended the number of days for the creation into eight days, and how to reconcile them with all the other verses that specified six days only. So they said indeed the four days in which Allah completed the creation of the Earth includes the first two days in which Allah created the Earth. A neat solution no doubt. But if that's correct then doesn't it show clearly and plainly the weakness of the Qur'an which could surely use wording that would be much clearer and eloquent, yet fell short of that and into weakness and ambiguity - especially since clarity is supposed to be an inseparable attribute of the Qur'an repeated over and over again on almost every page, "In a clear Arabic language"?![/b]


    I'd say that the author of the Qur'an did intend these verses to mean that the earth was created in the first two days, the mountains and stuff in the next two days, and then the heavens in last two of the six days of creation.

    But yeah, this is just another one of the clumsy parts of the Qur'an.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1152 - October 03, 2010, 09:38 PM

    I'd say that the author of the Qur'an did intend these verses to mean that the earth was created in the first two days, the mountains and stuff in the next two days, and then the heavens in last two of the six days of creation.

    But yeah, this is just another one of the clumsy parts of the Qur'an.


    Which, perhaps, is why abduNoor put this in the chapter on "Weakness of the Qurʾān" (as in weak language.) - and not the chapter on contradictions.

    Though personally I suspect that this may also be an example of mixed up verses - i.e. a scribe putting bits together from incomplete fragments. He had a bit about creation and days and stuck it in with others about creation and days without cross-checking the numbers. Because tbh the explanation of the second four days including the first two days sounds like nonsense to me.

    If it is the case that Muhammad meant the first 2 days was included in the second 4 days - then it displays absolutely atrocious and misleading phrasing.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1153 - October 03, 2010, 10:08 PM

    It's also interesting that our tiny and insignificant planet took 66% of God's time and effort while the rest of the universe only took 34% of his time and effort.

    It almost makes one think that God thought Earth was the center and most significant item in the universe and was unaware of how vast and complicated the universe really is.

    If I wasn't such a fervent believer with unwavering faith that the Qur'an is God's word - I might think that God had the same limited understanding as most human beings at that time.

    Wink  
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1154 - October 03, 2010, 10:17 PM

    never thought of it quite like that - but your 100% right.   In fact, rather than 1:2, the ratio should be billions & billions & billions:1 015

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1155 - October 03, 2010, 10:22 PM

    hassan i know i might be buging u .
    but one last question i will ask.

    who is harut and marout? and wats babylon got to do with it?
     
    sorry again
    cheers  Smiley

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1156 - October 03, 2010, 10:25 PM

    Though personally I suspect that this may also be an example of mixed up verses - i.e. a scribe putting bits together from incomplete fragments. He had a bit about creation and days and stuck it in with others about creation and days without cross-checking the numbers. Because tbh the explanation of the second four days including the first two days sounds like nonsense to me.


    It's possible. And the problem with the excuses that people make for parts of the Qur'an is that they're just barely credible. They blur the lines just enough so as to take the sting out of the criticisms that people make. So yeah, it may be just another one of these dubious responses to criticism, although I myself do believe that it's probably just bad wording. Unlike, say, the contradiction with these verses and those in Q. 79:27-33, which is a clear mistake, in my opinion.

    If it is the case that Muhammad meant the first 2 days was included in the second 4 days - then it displays absolutely atrocious and misleading phrasing.


    Yeah, and it wouldn't be alone in that regard. One that I like is where the Qur'an says in various places that 'none shall bear the burden of another' and yet says elsewhere that some sinners will bear their own sins, as well as those of others (29:13, 16:25).
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1157 - October 03, 2010, 10:32 PM

    who is harut and marout? and wats babylon got to do with it?


    From Tafsir al-Jalalayn on Q. 2:102

    God, exalted, says: Solomon disbelieved not, that is, he did not work magic because he disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching the people sorcery (this sentence is a circumstantial qualifier referring to the person governing the verb kafarū); and, teaching them, that which was revealed to the two angels, that is, the sorcery that they were inspired to perform (al-malakayn, ‘the two angels’: a variant reading has al-malikayn, ‘the two kings’) who were, in Babylon — a town in lower Iraq — Hārūt and Mārūt (here the names are standing in for ‘the two angels’, or an explication of the latter). Ibn ‘Abbās said, ‘They were two sorcerers who used to teach [people] magic’; it is also said that they were two angels that had been sent to teach [sorcery] to people as a trial from God. They taught not any man, without them saying, by way of counsel, ‘We are but a temptation, a trial from God for people, so that He may test them when they are taught it: whoever learns it is a disbeliever, but whoever renounces it, he is a believer; do not disbelieve’, by learning it; if this person refused and insisted on learning it, they would teach him.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1158 - October 03, 2010, 10:33 PM

    Unlike, say, the contradiction with these verses and those in Q. 79:27-33, which is a clear mistake, in my opinion.

    How is it a mistake & in contradiction with these verses?

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1159 - October 03, 2010, 10:42 PM

    Quote
    Ibn ‘Abbās said, ‘They were two sorcerers who used to teach [people] magic’; it is also said that they were two angels that had been sent to teach [sorcery] to people as a trial from God. They taught not any man, without them saying, by way of counsel, ‘We are but a temptation, a trial from God for people, so that He may test them when they are taught it: whoever learns it is a disbeliever, but whoever renounces it, he is a believer; do not disbelieve’, by learning it; if this person refused and insisted on learning it, they would teach him.


    Ok zebedee , i will teach u magic but thats a temptation  grin12 do u accept?

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1160 - October 03, 2010, 11:00 PM

    @Islame

    Funny to get that question from you, you mentioned this contradiction in one of your videos. But...

    Q. 41:9-12 & 2:29

     قُلْ أَئِنَّكُمْ لَتَكْفُرُونَ بِالَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَرْضَ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ وَتَجْعَلُونَ لَهُ أَندَادًا  ذَٰلِكَ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ

    وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا رَوَاسِيَ مِن فَوْقِهَا وَبَارَكَ فِيهَا وَقَدَّرَ فِيهَا أَقْوَاتَهَا فِي أَرْبَعَةِ أَيَّامٍ سَوَاءً لِّلسَّائِلِينَ

    ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ ائْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ

    فَقَضَاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ وَأَوْحَىٰ فِي كُلِّ سَمَاءٍ أَمْرَهَا  وَزَيَّنَّا السَّمَاءَ الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيحَ وَحِفْظًا  ذَٰلِكَ تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ

    Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds." -- And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask. -- Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly." -- And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

    هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِي الْأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ  وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِي

    It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.

    And Q. 79:27-33

    أَأَنتُمْ أَشَدُّ خَلْقًا أَمِ السَّمَاءُ  بَنَاهَا

    رَفَعَ سَمْكَهَا فَسَوَّاهَا

    وَأَغْطَشَ لَيْلَهَا وَأَخْرَجَ ضُحَاهَا

    وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ دَحَاهَا

    أَخْرَجَ مِنْهَا مَاءَهَا وَمَرْعَاهَا

    وَالْجِبَالَ أَرْسَاهَا

    مَتَاعًا لَّكُمْ وَلِأَنْعَامِكُمْ

    Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? Allah constructed it.  -- He raised its ceiling and proportioned it. -- And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness. -- And after that He spread the earth. -- He extracted from it its water and its pasture -- And the mountains He set firmly -- As provision for you and your grazing livestock.


    Notice that Surahs 41 and 2 have the creation of the earth first, then that of the heavens, whereas Surah 79 has the heavens being created first, then the earth, as well as its mountains and provision.

    Some have tried to claim that the earth was created first, then Allah went back to it after the heavens. However, this clearly doesn't make sense given that the heavens were created in the last 2 days of the six day creation, as stated in Surah 41. There was no more time of creation once the heavens were created.

    In addition, note also how immediately following the creation of the earth, the mountains, plants, pasture, provision, etc., are created immediately afterwards, thus making the incongruity even clearer.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1161 - October 03, 2010, 11:03 PM

    Ok zebedee , i will teach u magic but thats a temptation  grin12 do u accept?


    I know, it's retarded.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1162 - October 03, 2010, 11:04 PM

    Funny to get that question from you, you mentioned this contradiction in one of your videos.

    Sorry, I got confused, I thought you meant it was a contradiction to the number of days claim..

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1163 - October 04, 2010, 09:27 PM

    (latest from Hassan)

    Chapter 4 - The Miraculous Nature of the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 8 - Weakness of the Qurʾān (cont...)

    12. It's as though this confusion is not enough. As though weakness is an important requirement of eloquence. For that reason Divine Wisdom demanded - as a fitna to the disbelievers - that this weakness should be followed by more weakness to increase the confusion of the Qur'an only a single verse after the previous ones:

    "Oh you who believe! Fear Allah, and believe in His Messenger, and He will give you two portions of His mercy, and make for you a light with which you can walk, and forgive you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

    "So that the People of the Book wont know that they have no power over anything of the bounty of Allah and that the bounty of Allah is in the hand of Allah - he gives it to who he wills - and Allah is the possessor of abundant grace."

    (57:28-29)

    This verse contains two perplexing riddles and I don't know which one is greater than the other. Placing the Mufassirun in an unenviable position. It appears that the Qur'an takes great pleasure in driving these poor creatures to despair, leaving them unable to do anything other than waffle.

    The first riddle is this bewildering لئلّا (so that not...) which here has taken on the quality of quicksilver, leaving you unable to find any meaning or purpose to it. What makes this riddle even worse for the Mufassirun is that it hardly empties it's load in their minds, seizing them by the collars, when it is followed a second puzzle even more perplexing (The second error is the incorrect case ending on the verb يقدرون it should be يقدروا ). As though it is the earthquake followed by another, such the Qur'an speaks of in Surah al-Nazi'at, ("The day on which the quaking shall quake, followed by another." (79: 6-7) ) "hearts that day shall palpitate" and all of it is amongst the signs of the Last Hour and I seek refuge with God. May God save us from its horrors!

    How wretched are these patient Mufassirun and how arduous are their burdens and tasks that have been flung onto their shoulders! Never did one word of complaint issue from them. Never did they grumble or object. They fearlessly stepped forward and dived into the depths of the sea to gather the word of God and comprehend - according to the limit of human capacity - the dimensions and the objectives which it contains and each diver came back with new pearls better than their colleagues.

    Indeed the meaning of the last verse is plain on condition that you don't take any notice of the phrasing that burdens it and takes away it's meaning. For the negative particle لئلّا (so that not...) is a superfluous particle that has no meaning to it here. Nay, it is misleading and harms the verse enormously and turns it into puzzles and riddles, even though the intended meaning is very simple.

    Just as having the "Nun" ( نون ) (denoting the nominative case ending) on the present tense verb يقدرون (they are able/have power) despite it being in the accusative (because of ألّا which is أنْ plus لا which means the verb that follows must be in the accusative, i.e. it should be يقدروا not يقدرون ) is another misleading error.

    The Qur'an is simply saying: "So that the People of the Book know that they have no power at all over the bounty of God." But superfluous phrasing has burdened it heavily to the extent that it has robbed it of what remains of meaning. Who knows, maybe superfluous phrasing is amongst the signs of miraculousness. So whenever you over-do superfluous phrasing you are increasing the miraculousness. But only the few can be so skilled in superfluous phrasing.

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1164 - October 04, 2010, 10:31 PM

    Wow. This book is awesome, and once again all praise and thanks is due to Allah Hassan for taking the time to translate it.  Afro 

    *gets struck by thunderbolt*
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1165 - October 06, 2010, 10:01 PM

    Chapter 4 - The Miraculous Nature of the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 9. Contradiction is a Prominent Feature of the Qurʾān. (Aziz please note you will need to edit the title listed in the contents.)

    Would that the issues with the Qur'an went no further than the maladies we've mentioned, but there are other maladies even more serious. Perhaps the most important of these are the blatant contradictions. Yes, indeed the Qur'an is full of a variety of contradictions that it is not possible to keep quiet about it. Indeed contradiction is a prominent feature of the Qur'an.

    Below are some verses that combine ambiguity with contraction:

    1. "The month of Ramadan, in which the Qur'an was revealed." (2:185) But it is well known that the Qur'an came down piecemeal, spread out in installments and at different times and not as a single entity. So what is the meaning of the Qur'an being revealed in Ramadan, then? There is no solution to this contradiction except through a fairy tale. So the Qur'an was first on the "Preserved Tablet" (which came down as a whole in Ramadan) and from the "Preserved Tablet" it came down piecemeal to the lower heaven. Thus the problem is solved with a stroke of the pen.

    2. But on which day in Ramadan did the Qur'an come down? "Indeed we revealed it on the Night of Power." (1:97) As though the initial ambiguity is not enough and so it is followed it with more ambiguity intensifying the ambiguity and mystery. So it specified the coming down of the Qur'an as being in the "Night of Power" which is itself a collection of fairy tales:

    "And what will tell you what is the Night of Power? The Night of Power is better than a thousand nights. In it come down the angels and the spirit with the permission of their Lord with every decree. Peace it is until the break of day." (97:5-6)

    Did you understand anything? So the ambiguity of the Qur'an cannot be understood by the believer except with more ambiguity! Can you blame the Mufassirun after that if they don't find any way to remove this ambiguity except through fairy tales? For in them is the escape from every ambiguity!! And how many stories have been related about the "Night of Power" and how many victories has God accomplished for his beloved servants during the "Night of Power"!!

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1166 - October 06, 2010, 10:14 PM

    IsLame -  in the words of Alan Sugar - "You're fired!"

    You missed the two previous updates I sent you.

    I will post updates myself - but only on the "Actual Translation" thread.

    لن يحك ظهرك الا ظفرك

    I won't be posting elsewhere on the forum.

    Peace out!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1167 - October 07, 2010, 10:08 AM

    Excellent are these newest parts of the book. And on the subject of the 'Wafflers,' here's some truly grade-A waffling courtesy of Muhammad Asad, on Surah al-Jinn:

    v.1 : I.e., had heard and accepted it: this being the meaning, in the above context, of the verbal form istama‘a. – As regards the various meanings attributable to the plural noun jinn (rendered by me here as “unseen beings”), see Appendix III. As pointed out there, the jinn are referred to in the Qur’ān in many connotations. In a few cases – e.g., in the present instance and in 46:29-32 – this expression may possibly signify “hitherto unseen beings,” namely, strangers who had never before been seen by the people among and to whom the Qur’ān was then being revealed. From 46:30 (which evidently relates to the same occurrence as the present one) it transpires that the jinn in question were followers of the Mosaic faith, inasmuch as they refer to the Qur’ān as “a revelation bestowed from on high after [that of] Moses,” thus pointedly omitting any mention of the intervening prophet, Jesus, and equally pointedly (in verse 3 of the present sūrah) stressing their rejection of the Christian concept of the Trinity. All this leads one to the assumption that they may have been Jews from distant parts of what is now the Arab world, perhaps from Syria or even Mesopotamia. (Tabarī mentions in several places that the jinn referred to in this sūrah as well as in 46:29 ff. hailed from Nasībīn, a town on the upper reaches of the Euphrates.) I should, however, like to stress that my explanation of this occurrence is purely tentative.

    LOL! The chapter even says that it's about a group of jinn, and everyone knows what the jinn are, so therefore it must be talking about a group of humans! He  does all but outright admit that he's just making all this stuff up!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1168 - October 08, 2010, 08:59 PM

    ..

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1169 - October 10, 2010, 04:27 PM

    Interesting new stuff here. When reading through the tafasir you do become familiar with the contradictions and the exegetes' attempts to explain them. There are actually quite a few pertaining to the Last Day, it would seem.

    Here's an interesting example:

    Q. 37:27-29 & 37:50-52

    And some of them draw near unto others, mutually questioning. They say: Lo! ye used to come unto us, imposing, (swearing that ye spoke the truth). They answer: Nay, but ye (yourselves) were not believers.

    And some of them draw near unto others, mutually questioning. A speaker of them saith: Lo! I had a comrade Who used to say: Art thou in truth of those who put faith (in his words)?

    vs.

    Q. 23:101 & 28:66

    And when the trumpet is blown there will be no kinship among them that day, nor will they ask of one another.

    Upon that day the tidings will be darkened for them, nor will they ask each other.
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