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Theme Changer

 Topic: Dear Muslims...

 (Read 26017 times)
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  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #60 - May 06, 2010, 11:51 PM

    ''Hmm, I'm not sure I would describe satan as a disbeliever. Surely a disbeliever is someone who.... does not believe? In which case, like I said, I cannot understand punishment for such a 'crime'. Believing (no matter what evidence, what proof your presented with, no matter how much knowledge you seek, no matter how many arguments you encounter) in itself is not a choice. So to punish someone for not believing, regardless what he was exposed to, that is something I, frankly, find ridiculous.''

    You make a valid point. however, the word kafir and its derivatives do not translate to disbeleiver. the words translate to 'coverers of truth'. therefore these people know the truth (having interacted with the prophets) but still reject the good message as being false - the same thing satan did. don't ask me why they apparently did this but i have no problem calling such an act evil.


    What is the difference between 'rejecting something as false' and 'not believing something is true'? Sure, whether they act according to the message or not is maybe something you deem punishable, but actually believing something is false - I don't see how that could be.
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #61 - May 06, 2010, 11:55 PM

    For example the verse you quoted Hass, states that those among the people of the book and idolaters will be sent to hell for at least a certain period of time. the verse quite clearly indicates that not all the people of the book and idolaters are considered 'disbeleivers' - it only appears that a certain group from among them are.


    Read a bit further:

    98.6: Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
    98.7: (And) lo! those who believe and do good works are the best of created beings.
    98.8: Their reward is with their Lord: Gardens of Eden underneath which rivers flow, wherein they dwell for ever. Allah hath pleasure in them and they have pleasure in Him. This is (in store) for him who feareth his Lord.

    Do you see how believers are contrasted with disbelievers here? Those who believe are always better beings than those who don't. Belief versus disbelief is a constant theme in the Qur'an and it makes repeatedly clear, that to reject Islam is the worst thing a human could do, no matter during which time period. Practically all the stories in there revolve around this subject: God sends a message; some people reject it; God is pissed off and gets violent, kills people off indiscriminately and is happy again! Salvation depends first and foremost on faith (and whether you received dawah). Anything else is of secondary importance. If you don't have faith, you are simply damned.

    I quoted a lot of verses in another thread to you, which say that the works of the unbelievers will have no weight in the hereafter when a person is judged. I think out of all the topics in the Qur'an, belief & salvation is one that is dealt with in the clearest way possible. I realize you try to interpret these obviously harsh passages to make them seem less severe. However, I don't think they can ever be humane.

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  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #62 - May 07, 2010, 12:00 AM

    ''What is the difference between 'rejecting something as false' and 'not believing something is true'? Sure, whether they act according to the message or not is maybe something you deem punishable, but actually believing something is false - I don't see how that could be.''

    In summary: people who knew the truth but still disobeyed and concealed the truth were kafirs the Quran speaks of.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #63 - May 07, 2010, 12:08 AM

    Read a bit further:

    98.6: Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
    98.7: (And) lo! those who believe and do good works are the best of created beings.
    98.8: Their reward is with their Lord: Gardens of Eden underneath which rivers flow, wherein they dwell for ever. Allah hath pleasure in them and they have pleasure in Him. This is (in store) for him who feareth his Lord.

    Do you see how believers are contrasted with disbelievers here? Those who believe are always better beings than those who don't. Belief versus disbelief is a constant theme in the Qur'an and it makes repeatedly clear, that to reject Islam is the worst thing a human could do, no matter during which time period. Practically all the stories in there revolve around this subject: God sends a message; some people reject it; God is pissed off and gets violent, kills people off indiscriminately and is happy again! Salvation depends first and foremost on faith (and whether you received dawah). Anything else is of secondary importance. If you don't have faith, you are simply damned.

    I quoted a lot of verses in another thread to you, which say that the works of the unbelievers will have no weight in the hereafter when a person is judged. I think out of all the topics in the Qur'an, belief & salvation is one that is dealt with in the clearest way possible. I realize you try to interpret these obviously harsh passages to make them seem less severe. However, I don't think they can ever be humane.


    in general i would say that you are incorrectly (in my opinion) comparing disbelief and beleif, when really you should be comparing those who deliberatley covered up the truth after having known it (not non-belivers in general). i agree a lot of the stories revolve around people who directly rejected the prophets - but that is my point - i think only people who directly heard the word from prophets can be considered kafirs/coverers of truth

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #64 - May 07, 2010, 12:31 AM

    In summary: people who knew the truth but still disobeyed and concealed the truth were kafirs the Quran speaks of.

    Why would anyone do that unless they were stupid, and werent concerned about being tortured in hell for eternity?  In which case it would be unfair to punish someone because of low intellect?

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  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #65 - May 07, 2010, 06:29 AM

    indivduals who have done evil or directly rejected the good message of prophets after knowing the truth, will suffer - but perhaps not in the literal sense described. for example 'the burning of skin and then replacing with fresh skin' may just imply that the individual will suffer a torment that is long lasting - it may even just be a mental torment rather than a physical one. the reason why it is sdescribed in brute physical terms may be because it's difficult to imagine real mental torment.


    Does that make it acceptable and humane - in your opinion - Abu Yunus?.

    Is that a God who calls himself "The Most Merciful of the Merciful"?
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #66 - May 07, 2010, 07:36 AM

    For example the verse you quoted Hass, states that those among the people of the book and idolaters will be sent to hell for at least a certain period of time. the verse quite clearly indicates that not all the people of the book and idolaters are considered 'disbeleivers' - it only appears that a certain group from among them are.


    Yes, the trinitarians.  Association is an unforgivable sin. Not all Christians believed that Jesus was God - those were the "people of the book" who will not go to Hell, the ones who believed Jesus was God WILL go to hell.

    but the argument is that these people actually knew it to be the truth but still rejected the messengers as liars and rejected the good message they came with.


    And how does that make any sense? If a man locked me in a room with a gun to my head and told me to say Jesus was not God and I KNEW it was the case then I would say it, hell is worse than a gun so why would they KNOW it is untrue yet insist it is true? The only reason they adhere to it as the truth in the first place is because they believe it is going to keep them OUT of hell - if they KNEW it was untrue they'd adhere to whatever else meant they would not go to hell instead.

    This whole idea that Jews/Christians people KNEW Muhammad to be genuine but rejected his message because they didn't like it and then continued to do a long list of other stuff they believed would keep them out of hell is one of the most pathetically weak arguments I have EVER heard for why people didn't follow Muhammad's message. They didn't follow it because they did NOT believe him, it's as simple as that. Why didn't they believe him? Because they knew that everything he said was simply a regurgitation of old stories, some of which he got wrong and then had to claim "I am here to correct them, because for some reason the Jews changed parts of the Torah for no benefit what so ever, such as the age of Ishmael".

    Anyone who believes such a claim is seriously lying to themself, I cannot see how ANYONE could be certain that this argument makes sense. It is completely contradictory. I believe in an all powerful God who will burn me in hell for all eternity if I do not do what he says, I KNOW what God wants, but you know....I really do like the story about Jesus being God so I think I'll just have to burn.

    Yeah, right.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #67 - May 07, 2010, 07:49 AM

    Exactly it's Muhammed's rhetoric, those who did not believe out of pride. I think one can break down this attitude from Meccan to Medina and you will see how his attitude changes, add hadiths and sira and you can make a nice analysis.
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #68 - May 07, 2010, 09:25 AM

    Does that make it acceptable and humane - in your opinion - Abu Yunus?.

    Is that a God who calls himself "The Most Merciful of the Merciful"?


    God is merciful - of course I have to beleive that since it is repeated in the Quran over a hundered times. That's one of the reasons why i beleive he will only punish only those who heard the word directly from prophets, who realised the truth and that it was a good message, but chose to cover it with falsehood instead - surely an evil deed. i also beleive that he will punish those who do extreme evil (Hitler, Sadaam, child abusers, rapists , murderers etc). He is a merciful God, but He is also a just God. How can a God not care about justice (we are His creation after all) and therefore how can people who do evil go unpunished? Don't you beleive in justice? Like i said though, i beleive the punishments described are only metaphorical and could just consist of mental torment.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #69 - May 07, 2010, 09:36 AM

    Why would anyone do that unless they were stupid, and werent concerned about being tortured in hell for eternity?  In which case it would be unfair to punish someone because of low intellect?


    I'm not sure these people were stupid - i don't think this was the reason. According to the story, was Satan stupid? No he wasn't. He knew God created him, he knew God was all-powerful, all-wise but still chose to disobey God and go against Him. According to classical theology evil exists in this world - maybe the people who knowingly chose to cover truth with falsehood had evil intentions. In general, the truth is held in high regard in Islam, and deliberatley trying to conceal it (not because of lack of inteligence) is considered an evil act.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #70 - May 07, 2010, 09:58 AM

    Abu Yunus, let's say I have never heard of religion or God(s) how would you convince me there is a God?

    It's not a debate or an argument, just you discussing with me.
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #71 - May 07, 2010, 10:18 AM

    where did your soul come from - don't you feel your soul? do you really think humans could acheive and feel what they do from just being the sum of evolution?

    where did the laws of this world come from? i'm not necessarily talking about the aesthetic beauty of the universe (the earth, stars, galxies) etc. but instead the fact that they are governed by beautiful and coherent laws. where did these genious laws (general relativity, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics etc.) come from? they have undeniable beauty, elegance, complexity and mathematical coherence. surely they were created by some intelligent being? this is probably irrelevant but in my opinion great physicsts such as Newton and Einstein realised this hence their belief in a Creator (although very different creators according to both of them).

    or did these laws of physics just happen to appear from out of nothing all at once? is God actually just the laws of nature? what actually does this exactly mean? did a 'God' create the laws or not? if not who or what created or designed the laws?

    i'm not saying i 'know' God exists but I have faith he does - and i beleive for good reason.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #72 - May 07, 2010, 10:57 AM

    where did your soul come from - don't you feel your soul? do you really think humans could acheive and feel what they do from just being the sum of evolution?

    where did the laws of this world come from? i'm not necessarily talking about the aesthetic beauty of the universe (the earth, stars, galxies) etc. but instead the fact that they are governed by beautiful and coherent laws. where did these genious laws (general relativity, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics etc.) come from? they have undeniable beauty, elegance, complexity and mathematical coherence. surely they were created by some intelligent being? this is probably irrelevant but in my opinion great physicsts such as Newton and Einstein realised this hence their belief in a Creator (although very different creators according to both of them).

    or did these laws of physics just happen to appear from out of nothing all at once? is God actually just the laws of nature? what actually does this exactly mean? did a 'God' create the laws or not? if not who or what created or designed the laws?

    i'm not saying i 'know' God exists but I have faith he does - and i beleive for good reason.


    (this is not me but our fictional friend, we'll call him Lateef)

    Lateef

    My father was in a car accident, he no longer reacts to anything but he still breaths and lives. The doctor says he is pretty much gone. Why is his soul not responding? Many a times I have looked into his eyes, looking for the man I once knew, and I find nothing but a blank stare looking back at me. I have spoken to him, but he does not respond back. We have done all sorts of tests and it really seems that he is gone. Where is his soul? Why does his soul not communicate with me? Why can’t we find it?


    I feel the same awe when I look at the world. My heart is filled with this incredible feeling, I feel light like I can soar to the sky. So I agree with you there although I try not to add anything else, like saying its miraculous because this detracts from me trying to understand this. Say for example I say machinery I didn't understand, if I keep saying amazing, wonderful and so on (even though I feel it) I fear I might never understand it. So I try to keep that to a minimum without killing the inspiration that it brings. I try not to elevate it to the level where it becomes unreachable. I try not to make it more complicated than it already is.

    You know my friend, before we would look at a butterfly and we would compare it to a clock. We would say the clock has a maker so the butterfly must have one. The problem is that the clock definitely does have a maker. I can see this, I can get the maker and have it explained. But how I do I know the butterfly has a maker? Because has it really been created the same way? Is it valid of me to look at the final result of this butterfly and conclude there is a maker? I try to see if there is another possibility for it being here. And I think I have found a pretty good explanation. It’s not perfect but it works. I now no longer compare the natural with the man-made.

    The laws of the universe have been around before living organism (as far as I know) but I fear we might make the same mistake. We look at it and say there is a creator. We just don’t know enough about it yet. It was only recently we understood the natural world on our planet, I think its better to stay humble and study the laws of the universe with humility, trying to minimize assumptions to a minimum.

    The other issue is this Creator. Who is this Creator? Where did they come from? If things come from something, is it not valid according to this argument to assume they came from something? Can you point me to them? Or to Him? Or her? Do they answer to us? How can you deduce its nature without observing it? Have you spoken to it? We can observe the natural laws but nothing else. Is it not unwise to make any other assumptions outside what we can observe? 

    It might be a valid assumption, to say there is a cause for the laws of the universe. Even without knowing the cause, or what caused it. But how do you live your life based on this assumption?

    You say there is a cause, in what way is your life dictated by this assumption? Are there things you don’t do, are there things you do specifically based on the assumption? What about the lives of those who live with you? The ones you are responsible for. Are their lives dictated by this assumption of yours?

    I say I do not know the cause, and I find this to be a decent answer, because I honestly don’t KNOW. Know as in I know my name, or that I know my father. Or that I know if I don’t breath in oxygen I will suffocate and die. And I live life by this; it’s a negative assumption. It doesn’t hold any “data”. I make decisions based on this. And the lives of those I am responsible live their lives based on their assumptions and not mine because how can I dictate something positive out of something negative? We try to find a way to live together, to live in harmony. We learn as we go. It’s not perfect but it works most of the time.

    Now, you live your life the same, the assumption you have dictates your life. But it’s a positive assumption, there is data within it. How does that work for you? How does that work for others?
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #73 - May 07, 2010, 11:04 AM

    Of course Soul exists.

    Oh, wait. We're not talking about musical genres...? whistling2

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  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #74 - May 07, 2010, 11:48 AM

    (this is not me but our fictional friend, we'll call him Lateef)

    Lateef

    My father was in a car accident, he no longer reacts to anything but he still breaths and lives. The doctor says he is pretty much gone. Why is his soul not responding? Many a times I have looked into his eyes, looking for the man I once knew, and I find nothing but a blank stare looking back at me. I have spoken to him, but he does not respond back. We have done all sorts of tests and it really seems that he is gone. Where is his soul? Why does his soul not communicate with me? Why can’t we find it?


    I feel the same awe when I look at the world. My heart is filled with this incredible feeling, I feel light like I can soar to the sky. So I agree with you there although I try not to add anything else, like saying its miraculous because this detracts from me trying to understand this. Say for example I say machinery I didn't understand, if I keep saying amazing, wonderful and so on (even though I feel it) I fear I might never understand it. So I try to keep that to a minimum without killing the inspiration that it brings. I try not to elevate it to the level where it becomes unreachable. I try not to make it more complicated than it already is.

    You know my friend, before we would look at a butterfly and we would compare it to a clock. We would say the clock has a maker so the butterfly must have one. The problem is that the clock definitely does have a maker. I can see this, I can get the maker and have it explained. But how I do I know the butterfly has a maker? Because has it really been created the same way? Is it valid of me to look at the final result of this butterfly and conclude there is a maker? I try to see if there is another possibility for it being here. And I think I have found a pretty good explanation. It’s not perfect but it works. I now no longer compare the natural with the man-made.

    The laws of the universe have been around before living organism (as far as I know) but I fear we might make the same mistake. We look at it and say there is a creator. We just don’t know enough about it yet. It was only recently we understood the natural world on our planet, I think its better to stay humble and study the laws of the universe with humility, trying to minimize assumptions to a minimum.

    The other issue is this Creator. Who is this Creator? Where did they come from? If things come from something, is it not valid according to this argument to assume they came from something? Can you point me to them? Or to Him? Or her? Do they answer to us? How can you deduce its nature without observing it? Have you spoken to it? We can observe the natural laws but nothing else. Is it not unwise to make any other assumptions outside what we can observe? 

    It might be a valid assumption, to say there is a cause for the laws of the universe. Even without knowing the cause, or what caused it. But how do you live your life based on this assumption?

    You say there is a cause, in what way is your life dictated by this assumption? Are there things you don’t do, are there things you do specifically based on the assumption? What about the lives of those who live with you? The ones you are responsible for. Are their lives dictated by this assumption of yours?

    I say I do not know the cause, and I find this to be a decent answer, because I honestly don’t KNOW. Know as in I know my name, or that I know my father. Or that I know if I don’t breath in oxygen I will suffocate and die. And I live life by this; it’s a negative assumption. It doesn’t hold any “data”. I make decisions based on this. And the lives of those I am responsible live their lives based on their assumptions and not mine because how can I dictate something positive out of something negative? We try to find a way to live together, to live in harmony. We learn as we go. It’s not perfect but it works most of the time.

    Now, you live your life the same, the assumption you have dictates your life. But it’s a positive assumption, there is data within it. How does that work for you? How does that work for others?



    I understand and respect your position.  Smiley

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #75 - May 07, 2010, 11:51 AM

    Well coming from you I think Lateef would be happy to hear that Smiley

    Personally, I think you're a dunce.



    j/k
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #76 - May 07, 2010, 12:03 PM

    where did your soul come from - don't you feel your soul? do you really think humans could acheive and feel what they do from just being the sum of evolution?

    Shoot me, I dont believe there is a soul nor does science atm nor do I feel a soul.  Can you tell me how to get back in touch with it please?  Can you also tell me which animals experience a soul. Neandethals, monkeys, lemurs, spiders?  Why cant it be the sum of our component parts, thats what it feels like to me? 

    In any case its a strawman, the point here is that even if a soul did exist, does that make the Quran the word of God?  How do you explain the geocentric model explained in the Quran?

    Quote
    where did the laws of this world come from? i'm not necessarily talking about the aesthetic beauty of the universe (the earth, stars, galxies) etc. but instead the fact that they are governed by beautiful and coherent laws. where did these genious laws (general relativity, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics etc.) come from? they have undeniable beauty, elegance, complexity and mathematical coherence. surely they were created by some intelligent being? this is probably irrelevant but in my opinion great physicsts such as Newton and Einstein realised this hence their belief in a Creator (although very different creators according to both of them).

    or did these laws of physics just happen to appear from out of nothing all at once? is God actually just the laws of nature? what actually does this exactly mean? did a 'God' create the laws or not? if not who or what created or designed the laws?

    i'm not saying i 'know' God exists but I have faith he does - and i beleive for good reason.

    You keep banging on about the same thing.  Its not a matter about whether God exists or not, many here are agnostic anyway or prepared to 100% believe in a supernatural being the minute we get a modicum of proof.  Its about whether the Quran has come from this being or if was put together by man. Simple as that.


    I'm not sure these people were stupid - i don't think this was the reason. According to the story, was Satan stupid?

    I see, you are now saying all those people were positively satanic.  They were human beings AbuY
    Quote
    No he wasn't. He knew God created him, he knew God was all-powerful, all-wise but still chose to disobey God and go against Him. According to classical theology evil exists in this world - maybe the people who knowingly chose to cover truth with falsehood had evil intentions.

    Lets be real
    Quote
    In general, the truth is held in high regard in Islam, and deliberatley trying to conceal it (not because of lack of inteligence) is considered an evil act.

    You need to understand there is/was no universal truth, nor has there ever been in matters of theology.  Even as an atheist/agnostic/deist we cant claim that its the truth without any proof.  You take the same stance, as youve mentioned before, its a matter of faith so dont back peddle.  And if its a matter of faith, then there is no reason to torture somebody in the after-life. 

    Your stance doesnt stack up to any reasonable degree of scrutiny and lacks credibility, and sounds like if you had  been born to another family and been brainwashed from the beginning, you would have believed whatever they believed too.

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  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #77 - May 07, 2010, 12:20 PM

    I think the matter is very simple Abu Yunus wants to believe. It's as simple as that. And it brings him joy and comfort.

    I would be lying if I said that’s ok, because why don’t I believe the way you do? Am I happy? No, I have to say I’m not; my stance is uncomfortable, at least compared to how I felt before. But I can’t believe in something because it brings me comfort, the world doesn’t work like that. This is the closest I can get to a truth. But in any case, I have to say to Abu Yunus I understand, but I mean you know I can’t fully agree and pat you on the head and go “well as long as it makes you happy.” It would be patronizing since I don’t hold the same views as you. It would be disrespectful and dishonest.

    You know what I mean Abu? I am happy that you are happy but I can’t be fully happy because I don’t buy it myself. And it feels like you have to believe. Or make yourself believe. Maybe I’m projecting. Because that’s how it would feel for me now, if I tried to believe in combination with what I’ve read and thought so far.  I would make-belief. Kinda forced as well, or at least knowingly holding my hands over my eyes.

    I’ll tell you this, if you honestly believe, and are not forcing yourself for whatever reason then what more can I say. Or us here. If you believe from intellectually honest by research and so on then hats off to you, at least you have tried to back up your claims. But if you believe based on faith, then, how are you different from a Hindu, Scientologist, Wiccan, UFO-enthusiast, 9/11 truther etc etc. This is why I think most of us won’t let you go lol because it seems like you holding for dear life. If that makes you happy I don’t think anybody here would want to take that away, but if you are forcing yourself, I feel sad. Not in a patronizing way, just in a heartfelt way, like you deserve to be happy and you deserve better.
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #78 - May 07, 2010, 02:41 PM

    Islame,

    ''How do you explain the geocentric model explained in the Quran?''

    I know some of you have gone to great length to try and 'prove' the Quran states a geocentric model, but it doesn't. if you think it does, please show me one verse where it explicitly says that the sun is going round the earth. the notion that the Quran says the sun goes round the earth if full of assumptions - and that is the honest truth.




    ''I see, you are now saying all those people were positively satanic.''

    I didn't say that at all.





    ''You need to understand there is/was no universal truth, nor has there ever been in matters of theology.  Even as an atheist/agnostic/deist we cant claim that its the truth without any proof.  You take the same stance, as youve mentioned before, its a matter of faith so dont back peddle.  And if its a matter of faith, then there is no reason to torture somebody in the after-life.''

    it's a matter of faith for us, but what i have been trying to make clear is that i beleive that those who were around at the time of the prophets and heard the message directly from the prophets were in a special position. the prophets also bought clear undeniable signs/miracles with them. from the Quran it appears that some of these indiviuals knew the truth but chose to reject the message and cover up the truth with falsehood - it is these individuals (the Kuffar/coverers of truth) that the Quran says will be punnished. For the rest of us who never saw a Prophet in our lives it is a matter of faith and we will not be judged in the same way.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #79 - May 07, 2010, 02:53 PM

    What is the purpose of the Qur'an then? What is the purpose of narrating these stories to us, which allow for different kind of interpretations, all of which could be considered true. And some of these understandings lead Muslims to treat unbelievers in a very impolite or even inhumane way. Isn't the Qur'an a warning to all of humankind for all times to come? Do we have to believe in it, in order to attain salvation?

    (Could you also please answer what it means to be in a metaphorical hell? What difference does it make if it's metaphorical? Will it not cause terrible suffering? You cited the Qur'an where it talks of paradise in similitudes. Does that mean it will not be full of things that are extremely enjoyable?)

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  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #80 - May 07, 2010, 03:24 PM

    I think the matter is very simple Abu Yunus wants to believe. It's as simple as that. And it brings him joy and comfort.

    I would be lying if I said that’s ok, because why don’t I believe the way you do? Am I happy? No, I have to say I’m not; my stance is uncomfortable, at least compared to how I felt before. But I can’t believe in something because it brings me comfort, the world doesn’t work like that. This is the closest I can get to a truth. But in any case, I have to say to Abu Yunus I understand, but I mean you know I can’t fully agree and pat you on the head and go “well as long as it makes you happy.” It would be patronizing since I don’t hold the same views as you. It would be disrespectful and dishonest.

    You know what I mean Abu? I am happy that you are happy but I can’t be fully happy because I don’t buy it myself. And it feels like you have to believe. Or make yourself believe. Maybe I’m projecting. Because that’s how it would feel for me now, if I tried to believe in combination with what I’ve read and thought so far.  I would make-belief. Kinda forced as well, or at least knowingly holding my hands over my eyes.

    I’ll tell you this, if you honestly believe, and are not forcing yourself for whatever reason then what more can I say. Or us here. If you believe from intellectually honest by research and so on then hats off to you, at least you have tried to back up your claims. But if you believe based on faith, then, how are you different from a Hindu, Scientologist, Wiccan, UFO-enthusiast, 9/11 truther etc etc. This is why I think most of us won’t let you go lol because it seems like you holding for dear life. If that makes you happy I don’t think anybody here would want to take that away, but if you are forcing yourself, I feel sad. Not in a patronizing way, just in a heartfelt way, like you deserve to be happy and you deserve better.



    i don't think i force myself to beleive - to me it just seems natural that i do - although i do always have doubts and questions. Unlike a lot of you guys here, i do feel a soul or something spiritual of some sort - i could well be imagining things but then again maybe i'm not. so why should i not be positive? - it's not a crime to be positive.  other people have their own interpretation of Islam which i could never accept, but my interpretation of Islam of course makes sense to me and therefore i have faith in it.


    on a more light-hearted note did you see the video i made while you were away, BD. it's not meant to be taken too seriously:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm9tTNlrRTQ

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #81 - May 07, 2010, 03:41 PM

    I think the matter is very simple Abu Yunus wants to believe. It's as simple as that. And it brings him joy and comfort.

    I would be lying if I said that’s ok, because why don’t I believe the way you do? Am I happy? No, I have to say I’m not; my stance is uncomfortable, at least compared to how I felt before. But I can’t believe in something because it brings me comfort, the world doesn’t work like that. This is the closest I can get to a truth. But in any case, I have to say to Abu Yunus I understand, but I mean you know I can’t fully agree and pat you on the head and go “well as long as it makes you happy.” It would be patronizing since I don’t hold the same views as you. It would be disrespectful and dishonest.


    +1

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  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #82 - May 07, 2010, 03:46 PM

    Islame,

    ''How do you explain the geocentric model explained in the Quran?''

    I know some of you have gone to great length to try and 'prove' the Quran states a geocentric model, but it doesn't. if you think it does, please show me one verse where it explicitly says that the sun is going round the earth. the notion that the Quran says the sun goes round the earth if full of assumptions - and that is the honest truth.



    No it doesn't (isn't that argument a bit fallacious?) and the reason being is that it really looks as if the sun rotates around us. It looks as if there is a sun rise and a sun set. This is common sense. Well common sense doesn't make it true. It also doesn't explicitly say that the earth rotates around the sun. Why is that?

    Also, if you assume that the model they held was a geocentric one then it makes sense. If you read the Quran with heliocentric mindset most of the verses become symbolic and at times constrained metaphors.
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #83 - May 07, 2010, 03:55 PM

    all i'm saying is that the claim that the Qur'an says the sun is going round the earth rests on a number of assumptions. i don't think that is debatable.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #84 - May 07, 2010, 04:50 PM

    God is merciful - of course I have to beleive that since it is repeated in the Quran over a hundered times. That's one of the reasons why i beleive he will only punish only those who heard the word directly from prophets, who realised the truth and that it was a good message, but chose to cover it with falsehood instead - surely an evil deed. i also beleive that he will punish those who do extreme evil (Hitler, Sadaam, child abusers, rapists , murderers etc). He is a merciful God, but He is also a just God. How can a God not care about justice (we are His creation after all) and therefore how can people who do evil go unpunished? Don't you beleive in justice? Like i said though, i beleive the punishments described are only metaphorical and could just consist of mental torment.


    You didn't answer my question Abu Yunus, - never mind what you think you have to believe - do you think it is acceptable - humane - and merciful to horribly torture (mentally and metaphorically of course) people who don't believe? (Please leave Hitler, Saddam Hussein and mass murders etc.. out of this - we are talking about people who disbelieved only)
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #85 - May 07, 2010, 04:53 PM

    all i'm saying is that the claim that the Qur'an says the sun is going round the earth rests on a number of assumptions. i don't think that is debatable.

    Well it seems that is what the Quran(Pickthall) is portraying if you read these verse in context, as Allah of course would have expected them to be read.  

    Its certainly how I would have read it if I was not privy to current advanced scientific knowledge.  btw thats where the source of our disagreements lie as you are basing your interpretations with our current humanistic understanding, not something that was available before nor currently available is less advanced societies - thus leaving Quranic societies unfairly disadvantaged with ignorance fed by the Quran.

    Here are the quotes which are clearly wrong, particularly as the sun is not in orbit around the earth thus creating daylight (the earth orbits the sun) nor in orbit of anything

    Quote
    021.033 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon.
    They float, each in an orbit.


    Quote
    036.040 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day.
    They float each in an orbit.


    And talking about how much Alah did not understand the stars he created, the Quran claims allah makes the sun rise in the East?

    Quote
    2:258 Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East


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  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #86 - May 07, 2010, 05:02 PM


    it's a matter of faith for us, but what i have been trying to make clear is that i beleive that those who were around at the time of the prophets and heard the message directly from the prophets were in a special position. the prophets also bought clear undeniable signs/miracles with them. from the Quran it appears that some of these indiviuals knew the truth but chose to reject the message and cover up the truth with falsehood - it is these individuals (the Kuffar/coverers of truth) that the Quran says will be punnished. For the rest of us who never saw a Prophet in our lives it is a matter of faith and we will not be judged in the same way.


    Don't you think it's unfair that some people have to go through a test where the punishment for failure is far more severe, only because Allah decided they should be born then and not now? Why did they have to make a choice that we don't?

    And eternal hell-fire is an absolute punishment, not a relative one. Ergo, there MUST be an absolute crime, there must be some line where you can say, the people on this side are going to hell forever. Where is that line, if not at disbelief? Saying it's at 'where people chose to cover it up with falsehood' is extremely vague, and relative. That can be done to certain extents, therefore it isn't an absolute crime, unless you want to elaborate?
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #87 - May 07, 2010, 05:09 PM

    Islame,

    ''021.033 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon.
    They float, each in an orbit.''

    there is nothing wrong in this verse. from this you prove a geocentric universe in the Quran. seriously?


    ''036.040 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day.
    They float each in an orbit.''

    There is nothing wrong in this verse and again you'd have to make a few assumptions to say it is talking about a geocentric universe.


    ''2:258 Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East''

    Unless i'm being really thick about something the Sun does rise in the East.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #88 - May 07, 2010, 05:16 PM

    You didn't answer my question Abu Yunus, - never mind what you think you have to believe - do you think it is acceptable - humane - and merciful to horribly torture (mentally and metaphorically of course) people who don't believe? (Please leave Hitler, Saddam Hussein and mass murders etc.. out of this - we are talking about people who disbelieved only)


    Well i think i've been quite clear that according to the interpretation i have put forth God will not punish those who disbelieve. But He will punish those who knowingly cover up the truth and cover it with falsehood i.e. kuffar. I beleive in general that covering up the truth with falsehood is an evil act - especially if it's a truth regarding your creator - hence I do beleive it warrants a punishment - yes.  But i would add that I think 'torture' is an innapropriate word. If you take the calsssical interpretations of hell, then yes torture is a very suitable word. However hell might just be a place where people suffer mental torment in order that they may reform before entering paradise.



    i think i was a bit clearer in a response to islame:

    ''it's a matter of faith for us, but what i have been trying to make clear is that i beleive that those who were around at the time of the prophets and heard the message directly from the prophets were in a special position. the prophets also bought clear undeniable signs/miracles with them. from the Quran it appears that some of these indiviuals knew the truth but chose to reject the message and cover up the truth with falsehood - it is these individuals (the Kuffar/coverers of truth) that the Quran says will be punnished. For the rest of us who never saw a Prophet in our lives it is a matter of faith and we will not be judged in the same way.''

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #89 - May 07, 2010, 05:17 PM

    Quote
    But He will punish those who knowingly cover up the truth and cover it with falsehood i.e. kuffar.

     

    You really don't realise how vile and nasty this sounds, do you?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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