Dear Muslims...

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #90 - May 07, 2010, 05:18 PM

Quote
However hell might just be a place where people suffer mental torment in order that they may reform before entering paradise.

How can you hold on to your humanity whilst rationalising twisted, psychopathic, sadistic shit like this?

Serious question.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #91 - May 07, 2010, 05:20 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:09 PM
''036.040 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day.
They float each in an orbit.''

There is nothing wrong in this verse and again you'd have to make a few assumptions to say it is talking about a geocentric universe.

What assumptions exactly?

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:09 PM
''2:258 Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East''

Unless i'm being really thick about something the Sun does rise in the East.

No it doesn't. It only appears that way because of the Earth's rotation. The Quran being all sciency and stuff coulda mentioned something more scientifically accurate. But of course Allah in his allmightyness couldn't be bothered I suppose.

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #92 - May 07, 2010, 05:24 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:16 PM
Well i think i've been quite clear that according to the interpretation i have put forth God will not punish those who disbelieve. But He will punish those who knowingly cover up the truth and cover it with falsehood i.e. kuffar. I beleive in general that covering up the truth with falsehood is an evil act - especially if it's a truth regarding your creator - hence I do beleive it warrants a punishment - yes. But i would add that I think 'torture' is an innapropriate word. If you take the calsssical interpretations of hell, then yes torture is a very suitable word. However hell might just be a place where people suffer mental torment in order that they may reform before entering paradise.

If having your skin roasted off and brains boiled repeatedly is a metaphor then it at best can only mean some other form of unimaginable and indescribable torture, Abu Yunus - other wise that is not a metaphor.

And even if it is for people who "cover up the truth" (wtf does that mean?) do you think that "torturing" them repeatedly (Yes torturing them) is humane and merciful?

What is the point of that?
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #93 - May 07, 2010, 05:25 PM

Quote from: billy on May 07, 2010, 05:18 PM
How can you hold on to your humanity whilst rationalising twisted, psychopathic, sadistic shit like this?

Serious question.

That's a good question. I've always wondered how perfectly sane and good people could believe that such a clearly vindictive and sadistic god was the epitome of goodness and justice. It boggles the mind.

I mean, really. What would they think of a parent who locked their child in the basement and tortured them for mere disobedience?

If this god denied people paradise for not doing what he wanted then fair enough. But how could the 'most merciful' actually torture people for the most trivial of infractions? And how could sane people believe that to be just?
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #94 - May 07, 2010, 05:25 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on May 07, 2010, 05:02 PM
Don't you think it's unfair that some people have to go through a test where the punishment for failure is far more severe, only because Allah decided they should be born then and not now? Why did they have to make a choice that we don't?

And eternal hell-fire is an absolute punishment, not a relative one. Ergo, there MUST be an absolute crime, there must be some line where you can say, the people on this side are going to hell forever. Where is that line, if not at disbelief? Saying it's at 'where people chose to cover it up with falsehood' is extremely vague, and relative. That can be done to certain extents, therefore it isn't an absolute crime, unless you want to elaborate?

a lot of scholars would argue that hell is not forever, no matter what the offence. i hold the same opinion.

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #95 - May 07, 2010, 05:29 PM

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And even if it is for people who "cover up the truth"

'Covering up the truth' is suitably vague and elastic to make it sound like its discretionary, but in truth it could be applied to anything the torturer wants it to apply to. Any infraction of a petty law, any rejection of his 'truth', any refusal to 'submit' - it basically covers anything, whilst trying to make it seem reasonable.

You know, the more I think about it honestly, the more I think there must at some level be a social consequence of this level of apologia for sadistic, violent cruelty in Islamic reality and society. The brutality that it codifies must at some level manifest itself in brutality and fear and cruelty at a human level. Especially when there are strict hierarchies of enforcers - all men -who police society as proxies for this sadistic, serial-killer, torturing psychopath called Allah.

Just look at Saudi Arabia, Iran when the writ of the Islamic Republic is challenged, and of course, the Taliban. There are many other contexts and examples too.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #96 - May 07, 2010, 05:30 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:25 PM

a lot of scholars would argue that hell is not forever, no matter what the offence. i hold the same opinion.

Really, what about all the mentions of eternal hell in the Qur'an?
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #97 - May 07, 2010, 05:31 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on May 07, 2010, 05:25 PM
I mean, really. What would they think of a parent who locked their child in the basement and tortured them for mere disobedience?

I've said it before. Allah is like Josef Fritzl.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #98 - May 07, 2010, 05:36 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on May 07, 2010, 05:25 PM

If this god denied people paradise for not doing what he wanted then fair enough. But how could the 'most merciful' actually torture people for the most trivial of infractions? And how could sane people believe that to be just?

i don't think that knowing someone was the messenger of God and knowing that this messenger brought a good message for the whole of humanity, but then rejecting this messenger and falseley claiming his message is a lie, is trivial.

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #99 - May 07, 2010, 05:40 PM

Quote from: allat on May 07, 2010, 05:20 PM
No it doesn't. It only appears that way because of the Earth's rotation. The Quran being all sciency and stuff coulda mentioned something more scientifically accurate. But of course Allah in his allmightyness couldn't be bothered I suppose.

The Quran is not meant to be a science book. hence a lot of things are explained in terms of how they appear to us.

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #100 - May 07, 2010, 05:41 PM

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i don't think that knowing someone was the messenger of God and knowing that this messenger brought a good message for the whole of humanity, but then rejecting this messenger and falseley claiming his message is a lie, is trivial.

So you're saying that Hassan and others who have known and rejected Islam should be subject to the most sick, psychopathic, evil, cruel, wicked, blood thirsty, serial-killer style tortures?

How do you partition your brain, your mind, your personality, your soul, from on the one hand believing that this kind of perverted wickedness should be perpetrated on innocent men and women, and interacting with them, as you do here with Hassan and others, in which you laugh and joke and act as a normal humane person?

Is this some kind of cognitive dissonance you experience an awareness of from time to time?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #101 - May 07, 2010, 05:44 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 10:18 AM
where did your soul come from - don't you feel your soul? do you really think humans could acheive and feel what they do from just being the sum of evolution?

The problem I have with this is that it assumes we are incapable of of such feelings without the need for a higher power. You make nature, and by extension humanity, sound vile.

Quote
where did the laws of this world come from? i'm not necessarily talking about the aesthetic beauty of the universe (the earth, stars, galxies) etc. but instead the fact that they are governed by beautiful and coherent laws. where did these genious laws (general relativity, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics etc.) come from? they have undeniable beauty, elegance, complexity and mathematical coherence. surely they were created by some intelligent being? this is probably irrelevant but in my opinion great physicsts such as Newton and Einstein realised this hence their belief in a Creator (although very different creators according to both of them).

or did these laws of physics just happen to appear from out of nothing all at once?

This is flawed logic. I point out the only being we know exists, that is, nature. You will then proceed to say, it is complex, therefore it must have come from somewhere. And then you invent some higher being, which by virtue of being (even more) complex must also have come from somewhere. According to this logic, we have a never ending line of higher beings. But no, you draw the line at one more being (one 'higher' than nature). Why? With what proof, and by what reasoning? The only thing we can to do is to draw the line at the only being whose existence we have proof of - nature.
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #102 - May 07, 2010, 05:45 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:40 PM
The Quran is not meant to be a science book. hence a lot of things are explained in terms of how they appear to us.

Then how do you know it wasn't written by humans?

Also, I hope you're going to at some point address this:

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:09 PM
''036.040 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day.
They float each in an orbit.''

There is nothing wrong in this verse and again you'd have to make a few assumptions to say it is talking about a geocentric universe.

Which assumptions are you talking about? Do you see what that verse is saying? Or are you making some assumptions about what you think it was "meant" to say?

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #103 - May 07, 2010, 05:46 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 07, 2010, 05:24 PM
And even if it is for people who "cover up the truth" (wtf does that mean?)

to 'cover up the truth' means you know something to be the truth but you go on insisting it's a lie. for example i know my son is my son. but if i were to cover up the truth, i would go round claiming he is not my son and refuse to take care of him.

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #104 - May 07, 2010, 05:48 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:46 PM
to 'cover up the truth' means you know something to be the truth but you go on insisting it's a lie. for example i know my son is my son. but if i were to cover up the truth, i would go round claiming he is not my son and refuse to take care of him.

Would anyone do that, deny such an obvious and important truth, for a reason other than mental illness? And then, is it compassionate to torture the mentally ill?

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #105 - May 07, 2010, 05:48 PM

Quote from: allat on May 07, 2010, 05:45 PM
Which assumptions are you talking about? Do you see what that verse is saying? Or are you making some assumptions about what you think it was "meant" to say?

maybe it would be more appropriate if you told me how exactly this verse proves a geocentric model in the Quran - since it is your claim

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #106 - May 07, 2010, 05:49 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:46 PM
to 'cover up the truth' means you know something to be the truth but you go on insisting it's a lie. for example i know my son is my son. but if i were to cover up the truth, i would go round claiming he is not my son and refuse to take care of him.

And these people deserve to be tortured?

That is humane and merciful?

What is the point of that Abu Yunus?
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #107 - May 07, 2010, 05:50 PM

Quote from: allat on May 07, 2010, 05:48 PM
Would anyone do that, deny such an obvious and important truth, for a reason other than mental illness? And then, is it compassionate to torture the mentally ill?

i don't know why someone would do that, it might be for very selfish reasons, but if it was because of mental illness i think it would be forgivable

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #108 - May 07, 2010, 05:51 PM

Quote from: allat on May 07, 2010, 05:48 PM
Would anyone do that, deny such an obvious and important truth, for a reason other than mental illness? And then, is it compassionate to torture the mentally ill?

This^^
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #109 - May 07, 2010, 05:55 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:48 PM
maybe it would be more appropriate if you told me how exactly this verse proves a geocentric model in the Quran - since it is your claim

Sure. Let's go over it again, together.

Quote
036.040 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon

Actually, at the end of the Sun's life, it very well will overtake the moon, and everything else in the Solar System.

So again, Quran FAIL.

Quote
nor doth the night outstrip the day.

meaningless drivel.

Quote
They float each in an orbit.

This shows that it *appears* to humans (including the HUMAN writers of the Quran) that both the sun and the moon revolve around the Earth (Geocentrism), however, we know only the moon actually does.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #110 - May 07, 2010, 05:55 PM

And why is Allah such an insecure being that he has to torture those who reject him? Why should the supposed lord of all creation be so needy and have such low self-esteem that he punishes with brutality, cruelty, and perverted sadism, those who do reject him?

Fear of violence has been a great way to keep the petrified in check and preserve the structures of this religion, abuyunus.

Can you not see the utter moral horror and sickness at the heart of your Allah?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #111 - May 07, 2010, 05:55 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 07, 2010, 05:49 PM
And these people deserve to be tortured?

That is humane and merciful?

What is the point of that Abu Yunus?

again i don't agree with the word 'torture'. i think it could be a mental form of punishment that involves reform. the point of it is reform and justice.

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #112 - May 07, 2010, 05:56 PM

1. An All-Merciful God even creating a place such as hell, the worst abode as he calls it, is "fascinating"
2. It's funny when people try to humanize hell, or desensitize it, it's meant to be a horrible place
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #113 - May 07, 2010, 05:56 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:36 PM
i don't think that knowing someone was the messenger of God and knowing that this messenger brought a good message for the whole of humanity, but then rejecting this messenger and falseley claiming his message is a lie, is trivial.

Yeah, but then again, most people who read the Qur'an and subsequently reject Islam do so because they don't believe that it's true. Yet, surely someone who reads the Quran can't claim that the message never reached them, but how can they be faulted for rejecting it when they genuinely don't believe it?

But either way, just because they don't do what this god has told them to still doesn't mean that they should be tortured horrifically. How does that make sense? I doubt you'd even think about torturing you children for disobedience. Despite that, your god claims that he will do that to most humans, despite the claim that he loves them more than their own mothers.

Anyhoo, I commend you for defending your beliefs, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #114 - May 07, 2010, 05:58 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:55 PM
again i don't agree with the word 'torture'. i think it could be a mental form of punishment that involves reform. the point of it is reform and justice.

Justice for what? Because he didn't think that Allah was all that he says he is? The justice of a tyrannical, brutal, cruel, narcissistic, violent sadist?

That is 'justice'?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #115 - May 07, 2010, 05:59 PM

There are still 2 questions of mine you haven't answered. One - how is it fair that some people have to make a choice that others don't, simply because God decided they would be born at a particular time in a particular area?

Two - why, if there is no eternal hell, does it explicitly say there is, in the Qur'an?
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #116 - May 07, 2010, 06:00 PM

Has it ever occurred to you that you are defending a man-made fiction that is simply not worthy of your efforts, Abu Yunus?

That it is really every bit as cruel and sadistic as it plainly appears to be?

And why did God phrase it so crudely that most would believe he really is going to simply horribly and sadistically torture all those who disbelieve - for eternity - when he in fact meant something quite different?

After all you had no trouble explaining it in the way you have?

Abu Yunus - you are better than the God you are defending - ffs wake up man!
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #117 - May 07, 2010, 06:01 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 07, 2010, 05:55 PM
again i don't agree with the word 'torture'. i think it could be a mental form of punishment that involves reform. the point of it is reform and justice.

OK whatever form of punishment you say it is - now answer the question:

Do you think it's OK? You think that's humane? Merciful?
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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #118 - May 07, 2010, 06:04 PM

Quote from: allat on May 07, 2010, 05:55 PM
Sure. Let's go over it again, together.
Actually, at the end of the Sun's life, it very well will overtake the moon, and everything else in the Solar System.

So again, Quran FAIL.

meaningless drivel.

This shows that it *appears* to humans (including the HUMAN writers of the Quran) that both the sun and the moon revolve around the Earth (Geocentrism), however, we know only the moon actually does.

Hope that helps.

so when the sun dies it will 'overtake' the moon. ok. you're not adding you're own spin on this at all are you.

and who's to say God will not call time on the universe before the sun dies anyway?

and 'they each float in an orbit' proves a geocentric model in the Quran - you're not getting desperate are you? you are making the assumption that the Quran is saying the sun and the moon are going round the earth - surely you accept that??

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Re: Dear Muslims...
Reply #119 - May 07, 2010, 06:05 PM

''036.040 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day.
They float each in an orbit.''

QUESTIONS

1. What does it even mean for the sun to overtake the moon? Seriously? If I take this at face value what am I left with? How can the sun even overtake the moon? Of course it can not, but why the fuck would you mention it? I mean look at that picture, they are not close, not the same size and how can the sun even chase the moon?

2. Nor doth the night outstrip the day? Really? Ever heard of Scandinavia? Greenland?

3. Why on Earth would you mention the sun's orbit relative to the moon in this verse? How is this even relevant? How does it even make sense within the verse?

So, if taken literally it makes no sense. If taken metaphorically it's not well-written. I can't honestly believe a Supreme Intelligence wrote this.

The Rationalizer has already gone through all of these points in his video.
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