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Theme Changer

 Topic: Dear Muslims...

 (Read 26084 times)
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  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #120 - May 07, 2010, 06:08 PM

    you're not adding you're own spin on this at all are you


    Sorry, Abu Yunus - but do you realise the sheer irony in that statement coming from you?

    Do you realise that you do nothing but add your own spin on verses that are clearly amongst the most cruel and sadistic ever invented by man?
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #121 - May 07, 2010, 06:09 PM

    ''036.040 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day.
    They float each in an orbit.''




    By Jove! I believe the Quran is right the sun has its own orbit and there is no way it can chase the moon!! There is no way night would outstrip day or vice-versa. It's all true!!!!!!

    Wait.. is that even an accurate depiction of our solar system? I say NAY! That is a deception of our solar system.
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #122 - May 07, 2010, 06:10 PM

    Sorry, Abu Yunus - but do you realise the utter irony in that statement coming from you?

    Do you realise that you do nothing but add your own spin on verses that are clearly amongst the most cruel and sadistic ever invented by man?


    Allat and Abu Yunus each spin in their own orbit. It is not for one to overtake the other.

     cool2
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #123 - May 07, 2010, 06:11 PM

    so when the sun dies it will 'overtake' the moon. ok. you're not adding you're own spin on this at all are you.


    I don't know if you understand what the end of the sun entails... you do know how stars, of which our sun is one, die, right?

    o·ver·take
       /ˌoʊvərˈteɪk/ verb,-took, -tak·en, -tak·ing.
    –verb (used with object)
    1. to catch up with in traveling or pursuit; draw even with: By taking a cab to the next town, we managed to overtake and board the train.
    2. to catch up with and pass, as in a race; move by: He overtook the leader three laps from the finish.
    3. to move ahead of in achievement, production, score, etc.; surpass: to overtake all other countries in steel production.
    4. to happen to or befall someone suddenly or unexpectedly, as night, a storm, or death: The pounding rainstorm overtook them just outside the city.


    Do let us know what you think "overtake" means and how you are assigning it a meaning without making a single assumption yourself (like the assumption that the words mean what they mean in linguistic documentation).

    and who's to say God will not call time on the universe before the sun dies anyway?


    Yes and unicorns from another planet could descend upon the Earth and block out the sun between now and then too. yes

    and 'they each float in an orbit' proves a geocentric model in the Quran - you're not getting desperate are you? you are making the assumption that the Quran is saying the sun and the moon are going round the earth - surely you accept that??


    Nope. The Quran is actually saying that. You are the one who likes to say that you really understand what the Quran "means" to say, denying outright all the things it says that don't fit your own secular humanistic outlook, like denying that it says there'll be eternal torture for "disbelievers", apostates etc.

    You make a lot more assumptions than most of us who are willing and able to look at the hard reality of the Quran, that it is false and to make it fit into your and our *more moral* outlook, we have to deny too much of what it *actually* says.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #124 - May 07, 2010, 06:13 PM

    Yeah, but then again, most people who read the Qur'an and subsequently reject Islam do so because they don't believe that it's true. Yet, surely someone who reads the Quran can't claim that the message never reached them, but how can they be faulted for rejecting it when they genuinely don't believe it?


    i'm not saying people will be punished if they don't beleive. i'm saying people who know the truth but still reject the message will be punished - these were groups of people who heard the word directly from prophets/messengers, realsied the truth but still rejected it,  and were referred to as 'coverers of the truth/kuffar'.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #125 - May 07, 2010, 06:14 PM

    i'm not saying people will be punished if they don't beleive. i'm saying people who know the truth but still reject the message will be punished - these were groups of people who heard the word directly from prophets/messengers, realsied the truth but still rejected it,  and were referred to as 'coverers of the truth/kuffar'.


    Right so like a few 100 people are going to hell. Cool. Nice to know that God has a purpose for everything.


    Yet... he sure mentions hell a lot doesn't he?
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #126 - May 07, 2010, 06:16 PM

    I don't know if you understand what the end of the sun entails... you do know how stars, of which our sun is one, die, right?

    o·ver·take
       /ˌoʊvərˈteɪk/ verb,-took, -tak·en, -tak·ing.
    –verb (used with object)
    1. to catch up with in traveling or pursuit; draw even with: By taking a cab to the next town, we managed to overtake and board the train.
    2. to catch up with and pass, as in a race; move by: He overtook the leader three laps from the finish.
    3. to move ahead of in achievement, production, score, etc.; surpass: to overtake all other countries in steel production.
    4. to happen to or befall someone suddenly or unexpectedly, as night, a storm, or death: The pounding rainstorm overtook them just outside the city.


    Do let us know what you think "overtake" means and how you are assigning it a meaning without making a single assumption yourself (like the assumption that the words mean what they mean in linguistic documentation).




    ok you got me. you're way way too clever for me. in fact your intelligence is beginning to frighten me.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #127 - May 07, 2010, 06:21 PM

    ok you got me. you're way way too clever for me. in fact your intelligence is beginning to frighten me.


    That fear is just the fear of the unknown. We all have it, we just deal with it differently - we can't be lulled by religion anymore. Religion gives you sweet lullabies, but it doesn't add up when you are actually looking with your eyes open.

    Try not to give in to the fear. Walk through it, trust yourself AbuY, more than ancient scribes of political warlords... and maybe meet us on the other side.
    far away hug

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #128 - May 07, 2010, 06:21 PM

    So you're saying that Hassan and others who have known and rejected Islam should be subject to the most sick, psychopathic, evil, cruel, wicked, blood thirsty, serial-killer style tortures?

    How do you partition your brain, your mind, your personality, your soul, from on the one hand believing that this kind of perverted wickedness should be perpetrated on innocent men and women, and interacting with them, as you do here with Hassan and others, in which you laugh and joke and act as a normal humane person?

    Is this some kind of cognitive dissonance you experience an awareness of from time to time?





    no, i'm saying that the word 'kuffar' applies only to people who heard the word directly from prophets/messengers, realised it was the truth, but still rejected as false. people who have had no direct interaction with the prophets/messengers can't possibly know it to be the the truth, hence they are not judged in this way.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #129 - May 07, 2010, 06:24 PM

    Quote
    no i'm saying that the word 'kuffar' applies only to people who heard the word directly from prophets/messengers, realised it was the truth, but still rejected as false. people who have had no direct interaction with the prophets/messengers can't possibly know it to be the the truth, hence they are not judged in this way.


    (1) Have you informed all the Muslim scholars and practising Muslims who regard that as wrong of this yet?

    (2) Even if its true, you aren't disturbed by the process and mentality and horrific sadistic cruelty of Allah for doing this? Simply because people didn't want to worship him?

    (3) You do realise how hell, the tortures for disbelief, are used to brainwash, police, and spread hatred and cruelty amongst Muslims?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #130 - May 07, 2010, 06:28 PM


    no, i'm saying that the word 'kuffar' applies only to people who heard the word directly from prophets/messengers, realised it was the truth, but still rejected as false. people who have had no direct interaction with the prophets/messengers can't possibly know it to be the the truth, hence they are not judged in this way.


    But, AbiYunus, doesn't the Qur'an describe itself as 'clear proof,' 'al-bayyinah,' like in surah 98?

    Therefore, does that not mean that one who reads the Quran and learns its message must be considered to know 'The Truth' and if they deny/reject it then they become 'kuffar?'
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #131 - May 07, 2010, 06:29 PM


    no i'm saying that the word 'kuffar' applies only to people who heard the word directly from prophets/messengers, realised it was the truth, but still rejected as false. people who have had no direct interaction with the prophets/messengers can't possibly know it to be the the truth, hence they are not judged in this way.


    So there is no such thing as Kuffar outside the prophet's time?

    So Allah spent 50% of his final revelation to mankind for all time, condemning a handful of poor bastards from the the 7th century Arabian desert - to eternal torture?

    Funny how Allah's overriding concerns seems to have been what Muhammad's overriding concerns might be if it was Muhammad's words.

    But of course it was Allah's words - not Muhammad's - that's just silly - right, Abu Yunus?
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #132 - May 07, 2010, 06:37 PM

    Qur'an (40:71-72) - When the fetters and the chains shall be on their necks; they shall be dragged Into boiling water, then in the fire shall they be burned

    Qur'an (22:19-21) - But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron

    -----------------------------

    What I find interesting AY is that you refer us to the Garden as similitude, yet Allah doesn't use that word here. But this verse is according to you metaphorical? And that's not an assumption? Say that it is, seems like going to hell will be one awful experience. I can't imagine humans torturing humans like this. Can you imagine An All-Merciful being using language like this? To scare people into submission? For their own good?
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #133 - May 07, 2010, 06:44 PM

    Funny how Allah's overriding concerns seems to have been what Muhammad's overriding concerns might be if it was Muhammad's words.

    But of course it was Allah's words - not Muhammad's - that's just silly - right, Abu Yunus?


     Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #134 - May 07, 2010, 06:54 PM

    Islame,

    ''021.033 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon.
    They float, each in an orbit.''

    there is nothing wrong in this verse. from this you prove a geocentric universe in the Quran. seriously?

    If you accept it in its context,  you would agree.  Its the model that the Greeks beleived in and the model the muslims continued to believe in until there arguments could no longer stand against science.  No thanks to Islam, which only prolonged this misunderstanding.  Same thing happened with the earth not being flat with the Christians.

    Like I said earlier, at a minimum you still HAVE to accept its orbitting something.  Please answer my question.  If as you say my earth claim is incorrect, so what is the sun orbitting dear Abu?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #135 - May 07, 2010, 06:58 PM

    i'm not sure whether the Quran was refering to this or not, but the Sun does orbit the center of our galaxy. in general i agree that one could easily get the impression of a geocentric model, but my argument is that the Quran does not actually explicitly state a geocentric model - you'd have to make assumptions before you could reach this claim.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #136 - May 07, 2010, 07:01 PM

    Quote from: abuyounus
    a lot of scholars would argue that hell is not forever, no matter what the offence. i hold the same opinion.

    Really, what about all the mentions of eternal hell in the Qur'an?

    good point  Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #137 - May 07, 2010, 07:07 PM

    Two - why, if there is no eternal hell, does it explicitly say there is, in the Qur'an?


    this is a passage from the Shabbir Ahmed translation:

    ‘’Behold, Hell lurks in ambush.

    A home for the transgressors

    They will abide in it for ages. (Hell is not forever. Allah’s Grace comes to rescue the dwellers of the Hellfire (6:128), (11:107), (40:12). While the abode of Paradise is Eternal).’’

    78:21-23

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #138 - May 07, 2010, 07:21 PM

    i don't think that knowing someone was the messenger of God and knowing that this messenger brought a good message for the whole of humanity, but then rejecting this messenger and falseley claiming his message is a lie, is trivial.

    What makes you think they knew?  There is nothing in the quran thats says they were privy to anything more than what they were told by Mohammed?  They werent visited by angels or anything. 

    In fact it states quite clearly what Muhamemd was telling them, and you will know from the quran this mainly constituted of 747 fallacies.  In fact they even used the same arguments as a retort claiming that Muhammeds stories were "just tales from the old"

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #139 - May 07, 2010, 07:24 PM

    this is a passage from the Shabbir Ahmed translation:

    ‘’Behold, Hell lurks in ambush.

    A home for the transgressors

    They will abide in it for ages. (Hell is not forever. Allah’s Grace comes to rescue the dwellers of the Hellfire (6:128), (11:107), (40:12). While the abode of Paradise is Eternal).’’

    78:21-23



    lol... funny how you want to resort to "tafseer" when it suits you.

    Hell is forever.

    That's what the Qur'an says in completely unequivocal terms.

    Those who say other wise are either ignorant, liars - or in denial.

    End of story.

    And what basis does he say Paradise is eternal when the same language is used?
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #140 - May 07, 2010, 07:30 PM

    Oh I'm so tired of arguing that a square is not a circle - believe what you want, Abu Yunus - I honestly don't care.
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #141 - May 07, 2010, 07:42 PM

    Just joining this debate:
    By the way, I wrote a blog piece about a week ago about Muslim scholars in Britain preaching to the youth (with great fervour) about the punishments in the grave and the eternal torment in hell.  It's truly horrific!! furious
    http://www.atheistnexus.org/profiles/blogs/scare-tactics-in-islam

    Compared to most Muslim scholars, AbuYunus seems to follow a very watered down version of Islam (although you wouldn't be able to tell by reading this thread!).

    Btw, I noticed the irony when AbuYunus said that we were putting our spin on verses, when he has been spinning verses left, right and centre in an attempt to seem compatible with modernity!!  Cheesy

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #142 - May 07, 2010, 08:05 PM

    this is a passage from the Shabbir Ahmed translation:

    Who the fucks that?  Can I bring in the Richard Dawkins translation please?

    Quran Verse 36:1 (according to Dawkins translation)  I Muhammed invented this Quranic lie and suffer from delusions of Grandeur

    You accept that   Huh?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #143 - May 07, 2010, 09:28 PM

    Just joining this debate:
    By the way, I wrote a blog piece about a week ago about Muslim scholars in Britain preaching to the youth (with great fervour) about the punishments in the grave and the eternal torment in hell.  It's truly horrific!! furious
    http://www.atheistnexus.org/profiles/blogs/scare-tactics-in-islam



    Cheers for the heads up to those videos, and pointing us in the direction of those characters.

    This subject, of the 'moderate' Islamic obsession with decidedly immoderate threats and fear mongering of horrific, cruel, brutal torture and punishment for disobedience is something worthy of alot of study and discussion and of articles and essays.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #144 - May 07, 2010, 10:25 PM

    Who the fucks that?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbir_Ahmed_(writer) :

    ''Shabbir Ahmed is a writer of books in both Urdu and English on history and Islam. He was born in Pakistan in 1947 and currently resides in Florida, United States. A medical doctor by profession, he started his military career in the Pakistan Army under Emergency Commission as a young Captain in 1971. Then he served in Royal Saudi Army (Medical Corps) and became a Brigadier General at an age of just 31. He has since made a new career as an Islamic scholar, and been published in various magazines and newspapers.

    Being a young member of the royal medical staff of Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, he learned the Arabic language in the Quraish dialect in the 1970s under the auspices of Malik Faisal bin Abdul Aziz and Malik Khalid bin Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia. This dialect is very similar to the Arabic used in Muhammad's day. Ahmed has traveled and studied the Muslim world and written several books on what Islam is as well as what it is not.

    Malcom X Jr. says about Dr.Shabbir["Thus Speaks the Bible", March 2004]

    "He is one of the most enlightened and widely read scholars today. He has to his credit 47 fascinating books published and translated in many languages around the world. Add to this his weekly newspaper columns and over ten thousand visitors a day to his website. He loves the pristine Islam for the love and benefit of the entire humanity while thrashing all distortions of the religion by the orthodoxy.
    Read him with an open mind. You may agree or disagree with him. But his words are pearls and diamonds that can warm your heart, adorn your knowledge and decorate your mind. Trample them under your feet, and Ouch!-They will hurt."

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #145 - May 07, 2010, 10:27 PM

    Oh right - I hear Quintin Mahmoud Snyfffleoffogus does a mean tafsir too  Afro

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #146 - May 07, 2010, 10:29 PM

    lol, does he have a wiki page - that's the question  Wink

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #147 - May 07, 2010, 10:44 PM

    ROFL
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #148 - October 13, 2012, 06:49 AM

    .
  • Re: Dear Muslims...
     Reply #149 - October 13, 2012, 01:09 PM

     grin12
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