Wow, I just want to say that I am touched by the number of warm welcomes, really feels like coming home! Thank you all, I feel honoured to be in your great company.
And I'm surprised by the number of Nusrat fans here!
Welcome to the forum (lots of new members in the last few days!)
Thanks for sharing your story.
I understand how this feels. Are you male or female? I'm not being nosy, lol, I just find that parents deal differently when it comes to either one with regards to apostacy. I have only recently begun being verbal about my beliefs/lack there-of, though I haven' actually come out and said it, so I know where you are coming from.
How did you deal with telling them? What made you decide to? And do you wish you hadn't?
Thanks, and no problem! I'm a guy. I think with females it must be so much more difficult (assuming you are a woman from your avatar)?
Here is the interesting thing, coming out was quit easy as my family actually told ME that they know I'd apostacised. That's right. You see I am the kind of guy who rather stupidly documented my whole "belief journey" (or whatever you might call it) in a kind of "faith journal". What basically happened is, I left this "faith journal" lying around one day, and my mother actually (as mother's do) just picked it up and read something like "Today I have definitely left Islam" followed by a list of reasons. I'm sure that was a Kodac moment. So that made the whole telling them part ALOT easier (i.e. I didn't have to!)
Welcome, Eliphaz
Ugh! What a terrible movie
Well, except for the scenes with the old Gypsy lady.
Thanks, I actually really enjoyed it! The Gypsy lady
did rock, but of course it's got nothing on Evil Dead Trilogy. They just don't make 'em like they used to...
Welcome Eliphaz
You found the perfect place
So tell us a bit more about yourself.
Are you male or female?
what would you say was the main reason you doubted Islam?
I'd also love how your meetings with those Imams went.
Lastly, have you tasted pork? have you tried alcohol? if not here is a pint
Cheers Iraqi Atheist. The main reason I doubted Islam was when I first discovered that the Prophet Muhammad had had sexual intercourse with a nine-year-old girl. I remained Muslim for three years after that, trying to block it out of my mind. Last year after I'd graduated I started reading more, God Delusion et al - it was actually Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason" that actually made me realise that all religion was man-made. After that, it was just a matter of time.
The meetings with the imams, well, they were interesting to say the least (and there are more to come, whopee!). Since leaving Islam I have allowed myself to learn more about the problems with Islam. I mainly focus on the Prophet's life, so things such as Ayesha, Safiya, Banu Qurayza, the implied rape of female captives in the hadiths. I will hopefully post about these meetings in more depth when I get time!
I STILL haven't tasted pork (though it sounds tasty how people here have described it) but I DID try alcohol during my last year as a (lapsed) Muslim. I drank red and white wine. I kept thinking "wow I'm drunk!" though I was probably just imagining it. Crazy. I'll gladly accept your pint, never tasted beer!
Yeah I would also like to know how it went with the imams. What did they tell you? What did you reply with? How did they take it? And why were you not convinced by what they said?
Well, here is a brief summary of my latest meeting I posted in FF (not a huge fan of that place):
I met with the imam of the mosque as well as a convert who works at the mosque as a kind of resident da'ee I suppose. They were very both friendly and up front which I respected. I was up-front that I had problems with Islam but did not tell them I had de facto apostacised. We spoke for about 2 hours.
The main topics we covered were, Ayesha, Banu Qurayza massacre, eternal damnation, language of the Qur'an/barriers to non-Arabic speakers and the authenticity of the hadiths.
I first posed the question of Ayesha. They started by surprisingly denying the vast hadiths (the convert had no idea that this was stated in Bukhari)! Both of them unequivocally stated that it was impossible Ayesha was nine years old at the time of consummation and six years old at the time of marriage. They instead began talking about "timescales" being different in those times, that those hadiths were weak (despite being taken from Bukhari!). I asked whether the "timescales" were wrong about Muhammad being 55 at the time of marriage..
They then switched to the idea of end of puberty being the right age for marriage. I then asked if being physically ready for intercourse meant one was psychologically ready for it and whether a six-year-old could agree to marriage. They then went onto how "we cannot understand the reasoning behind everything the Prophet did". And so on, and so on. when the convert, slightly bemused, asked me what was the harm IF the Prophet DID engage a nine-year-old girl, I explained that (1) this is causing a whole load of child marriages to take place even today, and (2) this is pretty much an own-goal for Islam and making people terrified of it!
I found the ease with which they talked about dismissing sahih hadiths from Bukhari at the drop of a hat quite shocking. The convert was quite happy to elaborate, praising Islam for being a "dynamic religion". I asked him, if Islam was supposed to be a complete religion for all times, then why did it need updating, and when did it become not okay to engage nine-year-olds?
Anyway, moving on (and a few long anecdotes later) I managed to ask about Banu Qurayza. The imam put in an appearance and asked me how I would feel if someone betrayed me as the Jews betrayed the Prophet. I explained that I would not kill him AND his whole family! He then jumped in to deny that there was ANY KILLING WHATSOEVER during Banu Qurayza. Yes, you read that correctly. He believes that the Jews were simply *banished*. No killing all males past puberty and distributing their women and wealth. I asked him again, so there were not 800+ men and boys killed? He said that the Prophet would never do that and that this statement is, again, unreliable. Shocking.
So you can see where this is going, a whole load of cop-outs by dismissing their own historical records.
On eternal damnation, it was simply a case of "Allah knows best". On why there is no mentioning of rape in the Qur'an and how this is often said to have been implied in the hadiths to happen to female captives, they kept reiterating obscure cases where shariah courts came up with punishments for rape later on and what have you, though really not answering the question. I think this was probably the best question - rape - as there really is no answer for it. In the end, the convert had to say "I see your point"!
So overall, it came down to them admitting they could not resolve my questions. They put me in touch with a scholar whom I will contact soon. They have also explained that it takes a great deal of *knowledge* before one can understand these things *sufficiently*.
Welcome Eliphaz!
Is that Nusrat in your avatar? Love his songs.
Thanks allat! Yup it's Nusrat! I'm really surprised by the number of Nusrat fans here!
Like the avatar of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan
Glad you summoned up the spirit to post here eventually. Your parents reaction sounds exactly like mine, but I am so glad I told them. It takes time for them to lick their wounds and learn to live with it, as mine did, but am so glad I did as they know me for who I am. Otherwise if you dont tell your parents, then you have to be careful who you tell about it in case word gets back. Best to be open I think, provided your life isnt in danger.
In any case let us know how you found us, and what happened on 11/11/09 for you to make the big jump and describe the moment
Thanks IsLame, love your username! It's uncanny how similar people's experiences of leaving Islam are. You go through it thinking you are the only one only to come on here and meet people who are all "been there, done that!" It's like nothing else I have seen.
Why 11/11/09... well if I go back to my "faith journal" and check that entry, what I wrote was:
"Two weeks back, I was practising Islam, reading Qur'an, praying. believing. Then just as I was driving to Jummah, the idea of 'Eternal Damnation' really hit me... So much of the Qur'an is threats of one thing only, a blazing torment. So I am hereby stating that, for the following reasons, I am now permanently leaving Islam, although I still respect Islam as the strongest monotheistic religion and a non-violent religion (I don't know why I wrote this, I guess my mind was still partly brainwashed!) and think Muslims are mostly great people."I think Eternal Hellfire was the straw that broke the camel's back, I remember looking around my local town on the way to Jummah, and for the first time thinking,
really thinking, "According to Islam, most of these people are probably gonna end up in Hell" and for some reason that just sent a chain reaction of all the doubts I'd ever had in my mind. By the time I got home from Jummah I realised it was all over. The ten reasons are quite long and I'm sure everyone has heard them hundreds of times so I won't bore you with those, but that's pretty much the long and short of it.
Welcome!
Glad to see you had the courage to come out to your parents! Just be careful when treading the religious waters remember that you were once religious too and sudden attacks on your beliefs only lead you to defend them more.
Btw i love what you said about the Imams! Listening to these close minded fools only confirms that its all nonsense. All these people say is things like "pray to allah so you understand better", "allah knows best" blah blah blah. You should ask them why they still believe that the earth was created in 6 days hahaha.
Eliphaz, if you dont mind answering, what is your background? Judging by the fact that you were a sunni and have the great Nusrat as your avatar i assume you come from the land of the pakis? aka Pakistan?
Hey canex, thanks! And thanks for the advice RE: attacking beliefs, definitely, it is always something I am always afraid of getting into, as you do tend to forget that people still hold sacred that which you have abandoned.
And yes, you are absolutely right, I do come from the land of the Pakis, PAKISTAN ZINDABAD! (Actually I am one of the people who wishes partition never happened, but that is another discussion!) Though it is a bit more complicated than this. My mother is from Pakistan, though my father is an English convert to Islam. So that always makes for interesting father-son discussions!
Thanks again to all, you all rock.
Topic: Hello!