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Theme Changer

 Topic: Women's lib takes off in Libya

 (Read 11638 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Women's lib takes off in Libya
     OP - May 13, 2010, 11:48 AM



    Kulthum Bouseyfi graduated as one of Libya's first female pilots and three years on she is still one of the country's few.



    The sky is the limit for Kulthum Bouseyfi
    "I remember one time when I announced, 'This is Captain Kulthum Bouseyfi', some elderly men panicked," she says, recalling some funny moments working for state-run Afriqiyah Airways.
    "They started shouting, 'How is that possible? It's a woman!
    "Then the cabin crew took some of them to the cockpit and reassured them that the system could be learned by anyone."
    The aviation industry in Libya is arguably one of the country's most male-dominated sectors.
    But Ms Bouseyfi's story is a sign that things are changing in what was once a man's world.
    "I thought that no-one would accept women working in such a field," she says.
    "But I see people's respect when they find out I am a pilot."
    Ms Bouseyfi's dream is to establish her own commercial aviation company.
    The times they are a changing
    The emancipation of women in Libya has come a long way in the last few decades.
    They now make up more than 22% of the workforce, compared to just 6% in the 1970s.
    Libyan law provides free and equal participation for women in all social, political and economic activities.
    Famous women have included ministers and judges, as well as doctors and lawyers.
    As the country shifts towards privatisation, female entrepreneurship is bearing fruit from IT companies to accounting firms.
    Ibtissam Ben-Amer owns a franchise of the French chocolatier, Jeff de Bruges, in Tripoli, but her experience has been bitter-sweet.
    "It was not easy," she says. "I started in business 15 years ago when there was an embargo on Libya, so that was a really difficult time."

    Ibtissam Ben-Amer wants to open more chocolate shops
    "Right now things are getting better and the Libyan market is opening up very fast."
    She is looking to branch out with her chocolate shop in other parts of Libya.
    But in North Africa generally, fathers, husbands and brothers still have a huge say in women's choices, so women's lib is an uphill struggle.
    Haifa El Geblawi, who works for a foreign oil and gas company in Libya, says she has the support of her family to pursue her career but other women are not so lucky.
    "Some men prefer their wives to work in schools - that way they get to come home earlier," Ms El Geblawi says.
    "The husband still depends on her to take care of the children, the housework and cooking. So even if she works, she still has to do all of that as well."
    Rough terrain
    In private, young Libyan women, who are considered "too liberal", will complain of being sidelined or even excluded from business trips abroad because their male bosses want to pre-empt any gossip.
       
     Our society is very conservative and patriarchal 
    Libyan business woman
    A young Libyan business woman shared her experience on condition of anonymity.
    She works in a government investment firm while most of her peers work in the private sector.
    It is in the civil service, she says, that she comes up against many barriers.
    "Our society is very conservative and patriarchal," she says.
    "It is unusual for a woman to live on her own and work in the public sector. I struggle all the time to overturn the stereotype of women working only as secretaries.
    "As a result, my ability to do my job is often hindered and made difficult. I deal with bureaucratic and chauvinistic obstacles every day."

    The Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, has been seen as an emancipator of Libyan women.
    He has challenged social taboos and even appointed female bodyguards.
    Libya's military academy for women also had foreigners training in it during the 1990s, including recruits from Sudan, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories.
    But despite the progress, Libyan women in the security field are in the minority as society's perceptions of more traditional roles for women prevail.
    And the abiding image in Libya is still of women who rarely mix with men in public and still cover themselves up with a veil.


    ...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #1 - May 13, 2010, 12:24 PM

    Interesting article.  Thanks for sharing, Ribs.

    I see similarities between Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein in that they both help to advance women's rights in their own countries whilst at the same time being crazy megalomaniacs.

    Sadly, once Saddam was ousted, women had to go back to their homes and the veil.  Cry

    So much for the 'War on Terror' helping to 'liberate' oppressed Muslim women.  finmad

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #2 - May 13, 2010, 12:45 PM

    So much for the 'War on Terror' helping to 'liberate' oppressed Muslim women.  finmad


    Anyone who ever believed that in the first place should be shot.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #3 - May 13, 2010, 12:53 PM

    Yeah, actually they should.  There is no reason why western governments should commit their own soldiers and resources to liberating women in muslim countries.  Protecting their own citizens from terrorism - yes, that's a valid reason for soldiers to risk their lives, but liberating women in countries too backward to even outlaw child marriage and wife beating, no.  They have to grow up in their own time.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #4 - May 13, 2010, 12:53 PM

    Libya, under Gaddafi and the 'revolutionary' government, have made some genuine attempts to improve the status of women (as part of their overall development route), and, regionally, Libya is actually one of the better countries in that respect - even though it was one of the most underdeveloped prior to the discovery of oil.

    On a more sombre note, women are still institutionally and legally discriminated against. And with restricted civil society, there has been no room for grass-roots politicization of women. 'Liberation' isn't handed down from above.

    I hope that neoliberalization doesn't take further hold. That could be the end of any progress that has really happened.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #5 - May 13, 2010, 01:00 PM

    Yeah, actually they should.  There is no reason why western governments should commit their own soldiers and resources to liberating women in muslim countries.  Protecting their own citizens from terrorism - yes, that's a valid reason for soldiers to risk their lives, but liberating women in countries too backward to even outlaw child marriage and wife beating, no.  They have to grow up in their own time.


    And there's no reason why they would as they have supported every single anti-feminist reaction in the region.

    Iraq was hardly very backwards. Child marriage was, of course, outlawed (as it is in most muslim countries).

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #6 - May 13, 2010, 01:02 PM

    I change my mind: they should be left to tending geese, along with those bought the 'war on terror' line.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #7 - May 13, 2010, 01:05 PM

    I could not find a subtitled version, but is the best video from a speech by Gaddafi back in 1988 taking about the hijab and how it negatively affects women. They labeled him a kaffir ever since. I started admiring him since then.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1KmULxsHQI&feature=youtube_gdata

    ...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #8 - May 13, 2010, 01:08 PM

    Quote
    And there's no reason why they would as they have supported every single anti-feminist reaction in the region


    They support whoever suits their own interests best, and its unreasonable and naive to expect them to do anything else.


    Quote
    Iraq was hardly very backwards. Child marriage was, of course, outlawed (as it is in most muslim countries).


    I was thinking more of Afghanistan, but Iraq was hardly very progressive under Saddam either.  It may have been relatively progressive compared to other countries in the region, but not relative to the west.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #9 - May 13, 2010, 01:13 PM

    They support whoever suits their own interests best, and its unreasonable and naive to expect them to do anything else.


    Exactamundo. Which also means we shouldn't support any of their wars.

    Quote
    I was thinking more of Afghanistan, but Iraq was hardly very progressive under Saddam either.  It may have been relatively progressive compared to other countries in the region, but not relative to the west.


    Baathists weren't the first ones to carry out modernizations or anything. Things are progressive in relation to what went before, their own context. Anything else is ahistorical.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #10 - May 13, 2010, 01:18 PM

    Quote
    Exactamundo. Which also means we shouldn't support any of their wars.


    Unless of course our interests coincide with theirs. 

    Quote
    Baathists weren't the first ones to carry out modernizations or anything. Things are progressive in relation to what went before, its own historical context. Anything else is ahistorical.


    Painting Saddam's Iraq as a great place for women which was ruined by the wicked west invading is completely innacurate.  It wasn't that great, it was a country in which the security forces used rape as a form of intimidation against their political enemies, so excuse me if I don't share Nour's tears about the passing of Saddam.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #11 - May 13, 2010, 01:20 PM

    Unless of course our interests coincide with theirs.


    They never do. They never have. They never will.

    Quote
    Painting Saddam's Iraq as a great place for women which was ruined by the wicked west invading is completely innacurate.  It wasn't that great, it was a country in which the security forces used rape as a form of intimidation against their political enemies, so excuse me if I don't share Nour's tears about the passing of Saddam.


    It's not that things were perfect before - it's that they've gone phenomenally backwards. Iraq had real potential to once more begin a national project that could have progressed things further, and lead the region; in 2004 it was invaded and systematically destroyed.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #12 - May 13, 2010, 01:25 PM

    Quote
    They never do. They never have. They never will.


    Sez you.  I'll make up my own mind where my interests lie, if you don't mind.

    Quote
    It's not that things were perfect before - it's that they've gone phenomenally backwards. Iraq had real potential to launch a national project.


    If they've gone phenomenally backwards as a result of Saddam's heel being taken off their neck,  its because Iraqi society has phenomenally backwards values.  As you said yourself, you can't hand out liberation from above. 


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #13 - May 13, 2010, 01:30 PM

    Sez you.  I'll make up my own mind where my interests lie, if you don't mind.


    Their interests coincide with the ruling (and comprador) classes - not us. Therefore they're diametrically opposed.

    Quote
    If they've gone phenomenally backwards as a result of Saddam's heel being taken off their neck,  its because Iraqi society has phenomenally backwards values.  As you said yourself, you can't hand out liberation from above.


    I know you think that Iraqis are a homogenous and 'backwards' mass, inferior to middle class liberals like yourself in the west - but pro-feminist and left-wing movements had widespread support among the population, even if you're not aware of events since the invasion and occupation began.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #14 - May 13, 2010, 07:59 PM

    Cheetah, you're right in that Iraqi society is backwards relative to the West. This is beyond discussion. But you're wrong when you said that the rights and freedoms Iraqi women enjoyed under Saddam were "handed from above".
    Iraqis are generally more progressive and less religious than Jordanians or Egyptians (I've lived in both countries for a significant amount of time) yet atm many women in Amman or Cairo are dancing at nightclubs and drinking sheesha while many of their peers in Iraq are forced to wear Hijab because of fear of religious militias (let alone smoking sheesha, driving, or hanging in clubs).
    This doesn't mean that once Saddam was gone, the majority of Iraqis were like "Glad we got rid of him. Let's now go back to our old ways of subjugating our women". That simply isn't the case. The militias and their supporters are an unrepresentative minority of the Iraqi population that is armed and funded by powerful foreign forces.

    Just pick any country in the Arab or Muslim world. Invade it, topple its government, dissolve its police, army, and security apparatus, and leave the borders open for several months for any Islamist fucker from Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan. On top of that, actively encourage and entice exiled religious leaders to come back, fund them with millions of dollars of sweet American money, grant them unprecedented privileges, deal with them as "representative of the communities", grant them jurisdiction in some areas as well as the right to form unregulated militias.
    Do this to any Arab/Muslim country and I can guarantee that the result will be as fucked-up as Iraq if not worse.
    Fuck, if you did this in the American South I doubt there will be a lot of gay bars left within a year let alone 7.


    On a related note, Zarqawi, who was Al-Qaida's no.1 man in Iraq. What was his nationality? It's Jordanian. He comes from Zarqa (hence the surname).
    What about his successor Aby Ayyub Al-Masri? He's Egyptian. Masr in Arabic is Egypt (hence the surname).

    Now what does that tell you? when the last two leaders of Al-Qaida in Iraq are not Iraqis?
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #15 - May 13, 2010, 08:09 PM

    Yeah, actually they should.  There is no reason why western governments should commit their own soldiers and resources to liberating women in muslim countries.  Protecting their own citizens from terrorism - yes, that's a valid reason for soldiers to risk their lives, but liberating women in countries too backward to even outlaw child marriage and wife beating, no.  They have to grow up in their own time.


    Not sure I agree with this. I mean, practically-- yes, it's very difficult to impose social/cultural change from the outside (though certainly not impossible). Morally-- not sure. If my country wanted to wage war on Saudi Arabia for the sole purpose of liberating women and society in general (of course it never would, nation-states tend to operate in their own interests and little more, especially when one is speaking of capitalist imperialism), not sure I would condemn it if I truly believed it had a good chance of working. In fact, I'd probably try to see if I could get a waiver for my criminal convictions/arrests and enlist.

    For instance, very hard for me to condemn Soviet intervention in Afghanistan. Seems if you had to pick a "right" and "wrong" side in that struggle, the Soviets were clearly on the right side.

    fuck you
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #16 - May 13, 2010, 08:13 PM

    I know I posted this elsewhere already, but it still cracks me up:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uer0qHZyWbk

    fuck you
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #17 - May 13, 2010, 08:50 PM

    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist
    Just pick any country in the Arab or Muslim world. Invade it, topple its government, dissolve its police, army, and security apparatus,


    USA did just that dear IA and that was an extremely fu**ed up decision. Intentionaly or unintentionally.

    Disolving the police and army of an invaded country is equivalent to being shot by a death squad.

    ...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #18 - May 13, 2010, 09:01 PM

    Glad you agree dear RIBS. Not only that but also send them home with no money or pension. All people saw was the looting. However the things that were going on in the first months after the war (that weren't filmed or reported on) were far more ominous.

    I've mentioned this before, if you're interested in how this all happened watch this documentary. No End in Sight. Oscar-nominated and won the Sundance Jury Prize. Accurate, and devastating.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGPp-WhgEXE
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #19 - May 13, 2010, 09:10 PM

    IA, everybody knows that invading Iraq was the stupidest thing USA have ever and (hopfully) will ever take. The USA knows it, the UK knows it and everybody knows that the looting and the killings are inevitable once there are no police or security forces to take care of the innocent.  Cry

    ...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #20 - May 13, 2010, 10:19 PM

    IA, everybody knows that invading Iraq was the stupidest thing USA have ever

    Not sure if everybody does - I agreed with the invasion after the constant flouting of UN weapons inspectors.  They were making a mockery of international law, and after the sanctions, thought they were left with little choice. 

    And if another nation in the future does the same, they should learn from Iraq, but this time do the job properly.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #21 - May 13, 2010, 10:20 PM

    The invasion of Iraq was bullshit no matter how look look at it.  If it was to bring freedom, democratization, etc. then the American's should have wanted to throw everything into Iraq including the kitchen sink.  Send in the Boy Scouts, Rotary Club, send in police departments to train Iraqi police, water treatment specialists to train Iraqis to build sewage treatment plants etc.  Basically throw every aspect of a society to help build and train the infrastructure of Iraqi society.  Send in everyone to build the roads, paint the stop signs, build houses, ect.  

    But no.  G. W. Bush pushed the opposite direction.  He treated it as invading a country was some little thing that would be done and over in a few months.  Americans in, pull a level, and boom new society.  It makes me sick that he sacked his own advisers like Eric Shinseki who told the truth of the massive amount of men, dedication, and training to do what would be needed to be done if they wanted to go down that road.

    This isn't saying that the invasion of Iraqi was justified ( it wasn't) but if you're going to pull a fuck up at least do it right.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #22 - May 13, 2010, 10:27 PM

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Kulthum Bouseyfi graduated as one of Libya's first female pilots and three years on she is still one of the country's few.



    The sky is the limit for Kulthum Bouseyfi
    "I remember one time when I announced, 'This is Captain Kulthum Bouseyfi', some elderly men panicked," she says, recalling some funny moments working for state-run Afriqiyah Airways.
    "They started shouting, 'How is that possible? It's a woman!
    "Then the cabin crew took some of them to the cockpit and reassured them that the system could be learned by anyone."
    The aviation industry in Libya is arguably one of the country's most male-dominated sectors.
    But Ms Bouseyfi's story is a sign that things are changing in what was once a man's world.
    "I thought that no-one would accept women working in such a field," she says.
    "But I see people's respect when they find out I am a pilot."
    Ms Bouseyfi's dream is to establish her own commercial aviation company.
    The times they are a changing
    The emancipation of women in Libya has come a long way in the last few decades.
    They now make up more than 22% of the workforce, compared to just 6% in the 1970s.
    Libyan law provides free and equal participation for women in all social, political and economic activities.
    Famous women have included ministers and judges, as well as doctors and lawyers.
    As the country shifts towards privatisation, female entrepreneurship is bearing fruit from IT companies to accounting firms.
    Ibtissam Ben-Amer owns a franchise of the French chocolatier, Jeff de Bruges, in Tripoli, but her experience has been bitter-sweet.
    "It was not easy," she says. "I started in business 15 years ago when there was an embargo on Libya, so that was a really difficult time."

    Ibtissam Ben-Amer wants to open more chocolate shops
    "Right now things are getting better and the Libyan market is opening up very fast."
    She is looking to branch out with her chocolate shop in other parts of Libya.
    But in North Africa generally, fathers, husbands and brothers still have a huge say in women's choices, so women's lib is an uphill struggle.
    Haifa El Geblawi, who works for a foreign oil and gas company in Libya, says she has the support of her family to pursue her career but other women are not so lucky.
    "Some men prefer their wives to work in schools - that way they get to come home earlier," Ms El Geblawi says.
    "The husband still depends on her to take care of the children, the housework and cooking. So even if she works, she still has to do all of that as well."
    Rough terrain
    In private, young Libyan women, who are considered "too liberal", will complain of being sidelined or even excluded from business trips abroad because their male bosses want to pre-empt any gossip.
       
     Our society is very conservative and patriarchal 
    Libyan business woman
    A young Libyan business woman shared her experience on condition of anonymity.
    She works in a government investment firm while most of her peers work in the private sector.
    It is in the civil service, she says, that she comes up against many barriers.
    "Our society is very conservative and patriarchal," she says.
    "It is unusual for a woman to live on her own and work in the public sector. I struggle all the time to overturn the stereotype of women working only as secretaries.
    "As a result, my ability to do my job is often hindered and made difficult. I deal with bureaucratic and chauvinistic obstacles every day."

    The Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, has been seen as an emancipator of Libyan women.
    He has challenged social taboos and even appointed female bodyguards.
    Libya's military academy for women also had foreigners training in it during the 1990s, including recruits from Sudan, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories.
    But despite the progress, Libyan women in the security field are in the minority as society's perceptions of more traditional roles for women prevail.
    And the abiding image in Libya is still of women who rarely mix with men in public and still cover themselves up with a veil.




    Damn she is one hot tamale.  Phwoar

    But good for her though, its a step towards the right direction.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #23 - May 14, 2010, 07:14 AM

    Quote
    I know you think that Iraqis are a homogenous and 'backwards' mass, inferior to middle class liberals like yourself in the west


    Get real.  I have no idea whether or not Iraq has gone "phenomenally backwards" since Saddam was ousted, my post was based on accepting your premise that they had.  Now, if a society goes phenomenally backwards in any given area as soon as a tyrant is deposed, that shows you what kind of attitudes were bubbling under the surface all along, does it not?

    However, whether or not your premise is true is another matter entirely. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #24 - May 14, 2010, 07:48 AM

    Not sure if everybody does - I agreed with the invasion after the constant flouting of UN weapons inspectors.  They were making a mockery of international law, and after the sanctions, thought they were left with little choice. 

    And if another nation in the future does the same, they should learn from Iraq, but this time do the job properly.


    Meh it was pretty obvious that the US was going invade independent of the results of weapons inspections besides the violations of the weapons inspections really didn't merit invasion even from the terrible intel they had from the CIA.  It was painfully obvious even from the most generous light given to the US administration that Saddam wasn't going to have WMD's of any scale to threaten anyone seriously, and certainly wasn't connected to Al Qaida in any serious way.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #25 - May 14, 2010, 07:51 AM

    Damn she is one hot tamale.  Phwoar

    But good for her though, its a step towards the right direction.


    She is a hottie, and damn talented to be one of the first female pilots.  It can be tough being the first women into a "man's occupation"

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #26 - May 14, 2010, 08:08 AM

    Talking about women in Libya, I think Gaddafi trusts the ladies more than men.... Afro
     
    The lady who is tucking away her gun, had actually taken a bullet for him several years ago. She is the head of his personal security team.



    ...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #27 - May 14, 2010, 08:46 AM

    Painting Saddam's Iraq as a great place for women which was ruined by the wicked west invading is completely innacurate.  It wasn't that great, it was a country in which the security forces used rape as a form of intimidation against their political enemies, so excuse me if I don't share Nour's tears about the passing of Saddam.


    Believe me, Cheetah,  I didn't cry at the capture and hanging of Saddam although I was very happy when his two sons, esp. Uday were killed.  I know that Saddam and his cohorts kept the Iraqi populace under control via fear, rape and torture.  My point was that women had it better under Saddam than they do now since the Islamic militias have be left to run riot in Iraq.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #28 - May 14, 2010, 09:41 AM

    I know what you mean, Nour.  However, if IA's description of events is true, (and he is Iraqi, he should know), then I would expect it to right itself within a generation.  That's probably not much consolation to Iraqis now, but that's how real progress happens, its always two steps forward and one step back.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #29 - May 14, 2010, 01:26 PM

    Meh it was pretty obvious that the US was going invade independent of the results of weapons inspections besides the violations of the weapons inspections really didn't merit invasion even from the terrible intel they had from the CIA.  It was painfully obvious even from the most generous light given to the US administration that Saddam wasn't going to have WMD's of any scale to threaten anyone seriously, and certainly wasn't connected to Al Qaida in any serious way.


    Why did they go ahead then? What was the real motivation?
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