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 Topic: Women's lib takes off in Libya

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  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #30 - May 14, 2010, 01:36 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on May 14, 2010, 07:48 AM
    Meh it was pretty obvious that the US was going invade independent of the results of weapons inspections  besides the violations of the weapons inspections really didn't merit invasion even from the terrible intel they had from the CIA.  It was painfully obvious even from the most generous light given to the US administration that Saddam wasn't going to have WMD's of any scale to threaten anyone seriously, and certainly wasn't connected to Al Qaida in any serious way. 

    I dont think it was that obvious, otherwise what was the point of going to war then?  I think they were not sure if they had WMD weapons as the intel I saw was not conclusive , or that they should not flagrantly disregard UN resolutions in any case. 

    Either way they wanted to make an example of them as Saddam was a pain in any case, and in the meantime show off Bush's military muscle to the rest of the world.  I am yet to be convinced by any of the conspiracy theories.

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  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #31 - May 14, 2010, 02:02 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 14, 2010, 01:36 PM
    I dont think it was that obvious, otherwise what was the point of going to war then?

    Have said this here before, based on George Friedman's (Stratfor) analysis.
    A confluence of short, medium and long term goals from different players in the US Administration.

    Long term:
    PNAC - projecting current US hegemony as far into the future as possible, by taking up key strategic locations around the world - especially based on resources.
    Neo-con vision of remaking the Islamic world as liberal democracies.
    Medium term:
    To provide stability to oil supply in case Saudi falls.
    To provide a military base for armoured divisions to be able to threaten countries in the region.  (Threats backed by lobbing in missiles is less effective).
    Short term:
    To prove that America was capable of undertaking a ground offensive (Afghanistan was originally led on the ground by Northern Alliance with air support by the Americans).
    The aim of this was to bully less cooperative countries in the region into disclosing intel on Al Qaeda.  (Al Qaeda consisting of 3 separate types of group - grass roots, "franchises" and the "true" Al Qaeda being the one based in Afghanistan which demonstrated the capability of getting a nuclear device into the US and could not be deterred by a MAD policy - it is this "Al Qaeda" and only this that they are concerned with).
    Short term goals were predicated on a swift and decisive victory though...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #32 - May 14, 2010, 02:07 PM
    The first Gulf War ended with a conditional ceasefire.
    Saddam didn't meet his conditions (he kept shooting at the planes enforcing the no fly zone) , so the ceasefire was annulled.
    The "weapons of Mass distruction" was a political blunder. Bush had no idea whether or not they existed so he assumed a worse case scenario and trusted his assumedly god-given instincts over the unreliable intelligence he had in front of him.
    Of course the execution of the occupation was a complete fiasco.
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #33 - May 14, 2010, 02:40 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on May 14, 2010, 02:07 PM
    ....Of course the execution of the occupation was a complete fiasco.



    yup Afro
    ...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #34 - May 14, 2010, 03:10 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 14, 2010, 01:26 PM
    Why did they go ahead then? What was the real motivation?


    It's the Oil, stupid!  Tongue

    ... and finishing what Daddy Bush Sr started...
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #35 - May 14, 2010, 03:30 PM
    Cheesy
    ...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #36 - May 14, 2010, 03:59 PM
    I know the oil argument and it might very well be true, I just want practical proof of how its done. Positive evidence thank you very much.

    People say America is there for the oil and leave it at that, they don't explain how they get the oil and so on.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #37 - May 14, 2010, 04:58 PM
    Precisely BD, I dont think they did it for the oil although I acknowledge their are plenty of conspiracy theories showing how they control this pipeline and the other now.  afaik it all went to tender in the end anyway.
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  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #38 - May 14, 2010, 05:15 PM
    Skepticism is the way to go in all of life's endeavors, including love.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #39 - May 14, 2010, 05:26 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 14, 2010, 03:59 PM
    I know the oil argument and it might very well be true, I just want practical proof of how its done. Positive evidence thank you very much.

    People say America is there for the oil and leave it at that, they don't explain how they get the oil and so on.


    How about you google which companies produce oil in Iraq? You shouldn't be surprised if your search turns out to be all American with Bush or  Ramsfeild owning a big chunk of the oil companies there. Afro
    ...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #40 - May 14, 2010, 05:44 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on May 14, 2010, 07:14 AM
    Get real.  I have no idea whether or not Iraq has gone "phenomenally backwards" since Saddam was ousted, my post was based on accepting your premise that they had.  Now, if a society goes phenomenally backwards in any given area as soon as a tyrant is deposed, that shows you what kind of attitudes were bubbling under the surface all along, does it not?

    However, whether or not your premise is true is another matter entirely.  

    That would be true if there were no unregulated powerful religious militias.



    Quote from: Cheetah on May 14, 2010, 09:41 AM
    I know what you mean, Nour.  However, if IA's description of events is true, (and he is Iraqi, he should know), then I would expect it to right itself within a generation.  That's probably not much consolation to Iraqis now, but that's how real progress happens, its always two steps forward and one step back.

    Not necessarily. If the militias remain as powerful as they are I doubt we're gonna see any major social progress.


    Another thing I would like to say is that on a private familial level not much changed. Yes women now feel pressure to wear hijab in some areas in Baghdad but they still take it off once they're inside the house/campus.
    In Kurdistan, which is practically a separate safe part of Iraq and where there has been no religious militias, you would find that the majority of women do not wear any hijab.
    Overall, things are getting better but the progress is extremely volatile.

    To lighten things up a bit, here is some pics a friend of mine sent me from the pre-graduation celebration at the University of Technology, Iraq. This kind of celebration was not possible in late '06 or early '07. In fact when I was at Baghdad Medical School we had to cancel our 06 celebration because the militias raided another uni and confiscated all the DJs equipment and costumes:


















    BTW, they're pretending to drink alcohol here.















  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #41 - May 14, 2010, 05:59 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on May 14, 2010, 05:26 PM
    How about you google which companies produce oil in Iraq? You shouldn't be surprised if your search turns out to be allhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOM2mFDmmow&feature=youtube_gdata American with Bush or  Ramsfeild owning a big chunk of the oil companies there. Afro


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOM2mFDmmow&feature=youtube_gdata
    ...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #42 - May 14, 2010, 06:12 PM
    You don't seem to have many hijabies in Iraq!! Nice  Afro
    ...
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #43 - May 14, 2010, 06:18 PM
    Well yes and no. There is a huge gap between urban and non-urban areas. But overall, the Hijab rates in Iraq are way less than those in Egypt or Jordan.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #44 - May 14, 2010, 06:51 PM
    Thanks Ribs. May Odin grant you eternal life in the heavenly abode.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #45 - May 14, 2010, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on May 14, 2010, 06:18 PM
    Well yes and no. There is a huge gap between urban and non-urban areas. But overall, the Hijab rates in Iraq are way less than those in Egypt or Jordan.

    After Arabia, whats the second most religious arabi country?  Also how do you think Iran fares with Iraq in terms of religiosity?
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  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #46 - May 14, 2010, 09:57 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on May 14, 2010, 07:14 AM
    Get real.  I have no idea whether or not Iraq has gone "phenomenally backwards" since Saddam was ousted, my post was based on accepting your premise that they had.  Now, if a society goes phenomenally backwards in any given area as soon as a tyrant is deposed, that shows you what kind of attitudes were bubbling under the surface all along, does it not?

    However, whether or not your premise is true is another matter entirely. 


    Skip a bunch of substantive content, then, why don't you?

    IA also put it quite well.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #47 - May 14, 2010, 11:58 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 14, 2010, 08:09 PM
    After Arabia, whats the second most religious arabi country?  Also how do you think Iran fares with Iraq in terms of religiosity?

    Religion is enforced in Iran so one cannot know for sure. You can sense how liberal a country is by observing the social attitudes. Hijab rates, percentage of males with a long beard, legality and abundance of alcohol, Jumaa prayer attendance rates, degree of religiosity of the average citizen, social acceptance of the concept of dating, presence or lack thereof of coeducational primary schools and/or secondary schools and/or institutes of higher education, percentage of women in the workforce, degree of socializing and mixing between classmates and work colleagues of different gender, degree of enforcement of anti-prostitution......etc
    However, these data are meaningless when you have a theocratic government controlling the lives of its citizens.

    From my observations, Iranians have become on average more educated and well-off financially after 1990. This is of course because of 13-year long sanctions which led to significant deteriorations in the infrastructure and a drop in the literacy and school attendance rates. The working class was the mos affected. Child labour became widespread. So on a private level, I would say Iranians are more liberal.

    What is the most religious Arab country after Saudi? probably Sudan but I'm pulling this one outta my ass. But I can't tell you for sure it's not Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, Bahrain, Tunisia or the West Bank.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #48 - May 15, 2010, 02:11 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on May 14, 2010, 11:58 PM
    Religion is enforced in Iran so one cannot know for sure. You can sense how liberal a country is by observing the social attitudes. Hijab rates, percentage of males with a long beard, legality and abundance of alcohol, Jumaa prayer attendance rates, degree of religiosity of the average citizen, social acceptance of the concept of dating, presence or lack thereof of coeducational primary schools and/or secondary schools and/or institutes of higher education, percentage of women in the workforce, degree of socializing and mixing between classmates and work colleagues of different gender, degree of enforcement of anti-prostitution......etc
    However, these data are meaningless when you have a theocratic government controlling the lives of its citizens.

    You're right, it is difficult to judge.
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on May 14, 2010, 11:58 PM


    What is the most religious Arab country after Saudi? probably Sudan but I'm pulling this one outta my ass. But I can't tell you for sure it's not Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, Bahrain, Tunisia or the West Bank.

    I thought Tunisia was African?  Anyhow I would have said UAE, then Yemen then Oman.  No?
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  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #49 - May 15, 2010, 02:51 PM
    Correction: In the previous post, I meant to say "I can tell you for sure that it's not Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, Bahrain, Tunisia or the West Bank."
    So it's definitely NOT any of these countries.

    Yemen? could be.
    Oman? no. I have acquaintances who have visited/lived there and they told me they have a relaxed attitude.
    UAE? I don't know. If you exclude Abu Dhabi, Dubai, and Ajman the other Emirates are pretty conservative.


    Regarding Tunisia, it's both. It's a member of the Arab League. BTW, the biggest Arab country is Egypt which lies in Africa.
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #50 - May 17, 2010, 12:57 PM
    Quote from: Nour on May 14, 2010, 03:10 PM
    It's the Oil, stupid!  Tongue

    ... and finishing what Daddy Bush Sr started...

    The Cost of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Other  Global War on Terror Operations Since 9/11

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf


      Oil reserves (most recent) by country

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_res-energy-oil-reserves

     4       Iraq:     112,500,000,000 barrels


    A simple cost/benefit analysis doesn't add up to come to teh conclusion "It's the Oil, stupid"., Unless all Iraqi  Oil money goes to only  Bush family and American Tax payers pay for the war..

    I am not certain American game in Iraq was  Oil  and I don't think it was oil. In some quarters from Pakistan same conclusions were made that  America went for war against  Afghanistan and occupied it  to extract oil,  build pipeline through Afghanistan from central Asian  countries. That propaganda is often made in Mosques across the country to recruit Jihadis..



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #51 - May 17, 2010, 05:17 PM
    It is a war against Islam, ldo. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Women's lib takes off in Libya
     Reply #52 - May 17, 2010, 05:25 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on May 17, 2010, 12:57 PM
    The Cost of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Other  Global War on Terror Operations Since 9/11

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf


     Oil reserves (most recent) by country

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_res-energy-oil-reserves

     4       Iraq:     112,500,000,000 barrels


    A simple cost/benefit analysis doesn't add up to come to teh conclusion "It's the Oil, stupid"., Unless all Iraqi  Oil money goes to only  Bush family and American Tax payers pay for the war..

    I am not certain American game in Iraq was  Oil  and I don't think it was oil. In some quarters from Pakistan same conclusions were made that  America went for war against  Afghanistan and occupied it  to extract oil,  build pipeline through Afghanistan from central Asian  countries. That propaganda is often made in Mosques across the country to recruit Jihadis..






    People look at it from the wrong direction imo.  Oil is fungible.  That means it hits the world oil market before being bought by US companies.  So even if America somehow got all of Iraq's oil online and conquered Afghanistan and built a pipeline that means that world wide buyers of oil ( China, Europe, and America) "win", but since America incurred most of the expense everyone else is benefiting relative to the US because it has to pay for the wars while everyone else gets the benefit of having cheaper oil.  From a game theory perspective it doesn't make sense to go for cheaper oil prices as a benefit for the US.

    But if you look at it the opposite way, cheaper oil means oil producers DON'T benefit as well as they would under higher oil prices then a lot of the strategy makes sense.  For instance, for Al Qaida/Jihadi movements a lot of the psychological training ( brainwashing), financing, and brainpower come from Saudi Arabia.  Having a spigot right next to them in which to flood the market with oil to lower oil prices and lower the Saudi's main revenue source would be gaining leverage against them which could be used to clamp down on Jihadis.  Likewise other US "problem spots" mostly come from oil producers such as Venezuela and Russia ( who were both magically against the war).  Open a flood of oil and watch Hugo Chavez's social programs go down the drain and see him lose popularity, same with Russia.  

    Plus the stuff already mentioned Iraq, middle of the Middle East, access to Gulf trafficking lanes, projection of force etc.  
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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