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Theme Changer

 Topic: Who is still muslim?

 (Read 20279 times)
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  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #90 - May 14, 2010, 02:36 PM

    Quote
    Who very conveniently has a bunch of appointed emisarries to dispense guidance to these slaves  

    And hey, talking about slaves, did you read my posts about Massah Allah and his plantations? Islam is a slave - slave master - plantation overseer and the dynamics of this model?

     

    no, I must have missed that... but are you saying Muslims did horrible things? like demolishing the Kaaba, killing the prophet's grandson, and stuff? yeah, I know about that.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #91 - May 14, 2010, 02:37 PM

    You love ex Muslims - they're the only ones who respect you  Wink

    What does that tell you, debunker?




    I don't know, fuck Muslims? Like I care if they're looked down upon, just don't come killing us in our countries, that's all I want from the very humane West.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #92 - May 14, 2010, 02:42 PM



    no, I must have missed that... but are you saying Muslims did horrible things? like demolishing the Kaaba, killing the prophet's grandson, and stuff? yeah, I know about that.






    No, it was on the 'Justifications for Hell' thread from the other day, when someone talked about how Muslims are servants of Allah. But as you say, they are posited not as servants, but as slaves:


    Quote
    The relationship is actually that of a slave to his master - you do as you are told, or you will be whipped or killed.

    Islam posits the world as a slave plantation with Allah as the slave owner and Mohammad as the plantation overseer. Muslims must know their place, picking cotton and being whipped and abused and taking punishment for Big Allah Plantation Massah.

    They must also thank Massah Allah all the time for whipping and punishing them, or else he gets angry!




    Quote
    Massah Allah keeps his slaves in line by telling them to hate all the other people who don't follow him. He tells them that they are plotting and conspiring against them, and that they think they are free because they're not under his whip, and that they should be looked down upon because they do not work on his plantation. This keeps them always full of turmoil and dislike and suspicion, and prevents them from rebelling against the overseer Mohammad and the slave master, because they must always fight and dispute with those who deny their owner.

    And he also covets other lands that are not his, and wants to make them fertile for his slave plantation. His plantation is not enough - the whole world must become his plantation, and all the cotton pickers must spread the word of Massah Allah and make slaves everywhere


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #93 - May 14, 2010, 02:44 PM

    I don't know, fuck Muslims? Like I care if they're looked down upon, just don't come killing us in our countries, that's all I want from the very humane West.


    Why are bringing the West into it?

    My point was you're a self-declared Muslim, but you get turfed out of every Muslim website you interact on. Don't you find that weird?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #94 - May 14, 2010, 03:02 PM



    Too much writing.

    Quote
    But the short answer is: because He does NOT care...


    That's not an answer to the question, "If he does not care then....?". I'm sure there's a name for this fallacy too.

    If he doesn't care, why send messengers to earth?

    Quote
    if He shall make my suffering any less horrible than the utmost grusome infinite torment, then He should care for me first, at least a little.... His infinite mercy is what might make Him care for an infinitely insignificant creation like myself.


    Allah's mercy isn't infinite, it is limited. There are some people he will never forgive, his mercy does not extend to them. And don't confuse the notion of mercy with justice. They are mutually exclusive in their perfect forms. Both are seen as 'good' traits, hence men who dream up gods tend to give them such traits, but if you are unlimitedly merciful, you cannot be just, and if you are completely just, you cannot be merciful. Mercy and justice cannot co-exist infinitely.
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #95 - May 14, 2010, 03:08 PM

    Quote
    No, it was on the 'Justifications for Hell' thread from the other day, when someone talked about how Muslims are servants of Allah. But as you say, they are posited not as servants, but as slaves:


    Of course I am a lowly slave of God and I am not fit to be called anything other than that.

    Quote
    Why are bringing the West into it?

    My point was you're a self-declared Muslim, but you get turfed out of every Muslim website you interact on. Don't you find that weird?


    Not at all. Besides, one of them, a Shiite one, did actually put up with me for a very long time (over 500 posts or so) but I think they tolerated me for so long, mainly because I was ridiculing Sunni beliefs too.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #96 - May 14, 2010, 03:09 PM

    Too much writing.

    That's not an answer to the question, "If he does not care then....?". I'm sure there's a name for this fallacy too.

    If he doesn't care, why send messengers to earth?

    Allah's mercy isn't infinite, it is limited. There are some people he will never forgive, his mercy does not extend to them. And don't confuse the notion of mercy with justice. They are mutually exclusive in their perfect forms. Both are seen as 'good' traits, hence men who dream up gods tend to give them such traits, but if you are unlimitedly merciful, you cannot be just, and if you are completely just, you cannot be merciful. Mercy and justice cannot co-exist infinitely.


    yeah, I know it's too much to read.. but somehow I don't feel like repeating myself, not today, anyway...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #97 - May 14, 2010, 03:10 PM


    Quote
    Of course I am a lowly slave of God and I am not fit to be called anything other than that.

     


    I'm sorry debunker, but I just find the self-debasing rhetoric of Islam comical these days  Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #98 - May 14, 2010, 03:11 PM

    Quote
    I'm sorry debunker, but I just find the self-debasing rhetoric of Islam comical these days

     

    these days? you always did.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #99 - May 14, 2010, 03:11 PM

    Not at all. Besides, one of them, a Shiite one, did actually put up with me for a very long time (over 500 posts or so) but I think they mainly tolerated me for so long because I was ridiculing Sunni beliefs too.


    You mean you don't find it weird that all your co-religionists disregard you and consider your ideas on Islam ridiculous?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #100 - May 14, 2010, 03:14 PM

    yeah, I know it's too much to read.. but somehow I don't feel like repeating myself, not today, anyway...


    I'll take that as 'I have no argument'.
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #101 - May 14, 2010, 03:16 PM

    these days? you always did.


    No, but there is something about the specific rhetoric of slavehood and debasement and 'I am not worthy!' stylings that is funny, and I have only recently started finding this hilarious.

    Its like the Yorkshireman sketch from Monty Python, except with Muslims trying to outdo themselves in who is the most debased and enslaved in their devotion to Allah  Grin

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #102 - May 14, 2010, 03:22 PM

    That's relative billy..... the vast majority of Muslims don't care what other Muslims believe... this can't be said regarding Muslims who are interested enough to spend a lot of their time maintaing a web site to air their religious views... I don't think such people should be very tolerant of me.

    But to anwer your question, even big names Muslim scholars from the same sect differ on major issues.

    Ibn  Taimiah? Doesn't believe Hell is eternal.

    Sayyd Qutb? (a deceased Egyptian hardliner) believes slavery is immoral and it was for a certain period and now that it's dead, it is HARAM to wake it up!

    Even the definition of Hijab is disagreed upon.

    I mainly irritate them because I view their *great* scholars as ordinary people I can criticize and ridicule their errors as I wish... that's very offensive to them...  

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #103 - May 14, 2010, 03:22 PM

    I'll take that as 'I have no argument'.


    EXACTLY!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #104 - May 14, 2010, 03:26 PM

    No, but there is something about the specific rhetoric of slavehood and debasement and 'I am not worthy!' stylings that is funny, and I have only recently started finding this hilarious.

    Its like the Yorkshireman sketch from Monty Python, except with Muslims trying to outdo themselves in who is the most debased and enslaved in their devotion to Allah  Grin

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo



    It's not about devotion or non devotion... a creator creates, the creation is automatically *owned* by its creator... as for worthiness, even a a million dollars is nothing compared to an infinite amount of money, etc, etc.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #105 - May 14, 2010, 03:29 PM

    It's not about devotion or non devotion... a creator creates, the creation is automatically *owned* by its creator... as for worthiness, even a a million dollars is nothing compared to an infinite amount of money, etc, etc.


    And you see nothing wrong with such a belief?
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #106 - May 14, 2010, 03:34 PM

    no.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #107 - May 14, 2010, 03:36 PM

    Read Mikhail Bakunin's God and the State.  Smiley
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #108 - May 14, 2010, 03:40 PM

    Quote
    Read Mikhail Bakunin's God and the State.

     

    I'm sure that book would convince me... it's all I need, really... people thinking on my behalf.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #109 - May 14, 2010, 03:45 PM

    Why are you making arguments in this forum? Do you think other people need you to think for them?
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #110 - May 14, 2010, 03:46 PM

    And no other god, even one you dream up, can solve the Problem of Evil! To you, it would seem that if God exists, any God at all, then He must be a *monster* for allowing all this suffering to go around in the world, and you don't want to worship a monster! That's why you can't committ to Deism, for example.


    Certainly the existence of suffering and evil makes the existence of a God problematic for me, but I can't dismiss the idea that if God exists, he does have a very good reason and objective that it simply is beyond my understanding.

    But if there is a God I cannot believe he can be so harshly judgmental towards those who reject what is in the Qur'an - even if it was true - since even if one stretches and hammers it into something more 'acceptable' - no-one can be blamed for seeing it in a different way - the way it so apparently appears to be.

    In other words it is not so much that I object to evil or suffering - but that I object to the harsh and judgmental God of Abraham - even if these are all metaphors or whatever - I simply cannot see how the "stubborn Kafir" can really be blamed for rejecting a book that God appears to have done his best to disguise as a cruel and, sadistic God - reflecting the very worst human emotions of vengeance, tyranny and anger.

    And with that I'm off to a Sufi prayer meeting lol (True! - Talk later  grin12)
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #111 - May 14, 2010, 03:46 PM

    Debunker is a house slave Grin Massa how are we doing today?
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #112 - May 14, 2010, 03:51 PM

    It's not about devotion or non devotion... a creator creates, the creation is automatically *owned* by its creator... as for worthiness, even a a million dollars is nothing compared to an infinite amount of money, etc, etc.


    I love it when it gets laid on really thick, saying stuff that is supposedly self-evident ('the creation is automatically owned by its creator') and crashing that wave onto the rock of ones debasement for God  Afro




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #113 - May 14, 2010, 04:18 PM

    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #114 - May 14, 2010, 04:29 PM


    And with that I'm off to a Sufi prayer meeting lol (True! - Talk later  grin12)


    lol, when you get back tell us more (was this the one your ex-wife drags you to?)

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #115 - May 14, 2010, 04:36 PM

    I thought that was a comment, not a question... could you reformulate it as a question?

    OK, its the original question with the accent on the word commit, as you originally answered it with it making more sense.

    I dont think we should commit to anything until we have proof. At best we should remain ambivalent, what you say Debunker?


    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #116 - May 14, 2010, 04:47 PM

    I love it when it gets laid on really thick, saying stuff that is supposedly self-evident ('the creation is automatically owned by its creator') and crashing that wave onto the rock of ones debasement for God  Afro



    Translate that for me, please..

    oh, wait! are you saying that I'm oversimplifying things or that I'm being a simpleton or.... tsk, never mind. The next thing you're gonna say would probably fly way over my head too, anyway... 

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #117 - May 14, 2010, 04:51 PM

    Certainly the existence of suffering and evil makes the existence of a God problematic for me, but I can't dismiss the idea that if God exists, he does have a very good reason and objective that it simply is beyond my understanding.

    But if there is a God I cannot believe he can be so harshly judgmental towards those who reject what is in the Qur'an - even if it was true - since even if one stretches and hammers it into something more 'acceptable' - no-one can be blamed for seeing it in a different way - the way it so apparently appears to be.

    In other words it is not so much that I object to evil or suffering - but that I object to the harsh and judgmental God of Abraham - even if these are all metaphors or whatever - I simply cannot see how the "stubborn Kafir" can really be blamed for rejecting a book that God appears to have done his best to disguise as a cruel and, sadistic God - reflecting the very worst human emotions of vengeance, tyranny and anger.


    But that's being inconsistent, Hassan... if you're really capable of allowing the idea of God to survive the Problem of Evil, since things might be beyond your understanding, then why wouldn't you categorize other troubling issues under the same banner of limited human understanding?

    In my case, I think I have pretty decent justifications for some of these issues, but these work only for me... I believe, in my case, the basis is GOD CERTAINLY EXISTS, and everything else is essentially a *side issue* that I can either try to justify or slip it under the carpet. I could go for pure Deism, in which case there would be only the problem of evil, but I eventually chose Islam again for various many reasons.

    What I really think Hassan, is you will never accept ANY God. I *think* the Problem of Evil is the basis from which you set out to seek reasons not to believe in God: evolution, imperfection of creation, the total apparent randomness of fate, etc... you *collect evidence* against the existence of God, for no God is really worthy of your love when He ignores His creation like this, while you, given a chance, you'd make life much much better for everyone on Earth!

    You want to create your own God, whom you can love, but there will always be a missing ingredient for you... so you curse this idea and bury it with tons of evidence against it! But you'll always, always yearn for your beloved God, without ever being able to find Him.

    Quote
    And with that I'm off to a Sufi prayer meeting lol (True! - Talk later  grin12)


    LOOOOL! yeah, I'll be talking to you soon...next weekend, inshallah... after I'm finally done. Good luck with that prayer Smiley LOL.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #118 - May 14, 2010, 04:53 PM

    @ Islame

    Quote
    I dont think we should commit to anything until we have proof. At best we should remain ambivalent, what you say Debunker?


    True! Although, I'd replace "proof" with "evidence".

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #119 - May 14, 2010, 04:54 PM

    @ prince

    Quote
    Why are you making arguments in this forum? Do you think other people need you to think for them?


    no.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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