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Theme Changer

 Topic: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time

 (Read 37163 times)
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  • Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     OP - May 17, 2010, 05:52 PM

    The mainstream Islamic veiw is that the whole of the Quran in general is meant be for all-time. But was this ever really meant to be the case or did those who came after Muhammad raise the Quran to this status? If one reads the Quran it appears that a lot of the passages are only relavant to specific situations that were present at that time - these range from how the companions of the Prophet should behave when entering the Prophet's house for food to what should be done in very specific situations of conflict/war that existed at that time. So just how much of the Quran, if any of it at all, was supposed to be for the times we live in now?

    The period during which the Quran was revelaed had a very harsh reality and it may perhaps be fair to say that humanity was in the stoneage compared to what it is now. Hence it might follow that we today may find some of the passages of the Quran harsh and innapropriate, whereas these passages may in fact may have been apporpiate/necessary to deal with specific situations of that time. Hence it is possible that passages such as 4:34, cutting off the hands of thieves, flogging of adulterers, encouraging the freeing rather than banning of slavery, for whatever reason they were ordained without sepculating on the details, was done only to contend with very specific relevant conditions at the time.


    If we are to accept this notion, we must also accept that revalation and sending down of scripture was only meant to be a way for God to keep humanity on the right track - perhaps it was always the intention of God that we evolve into beings that can become capable of using their God-given souls and intellect to decide on what is right/wrong. Indeed, the Quran itself says that it was sent down as a 'mercy' to mankind rather than something that we absolutely needed to live good lives. Another argument that one might make to support this general veiw is that Muhammad, it appears, made no attempt to compile the Quran as a single book before he died - something that we might have expected if if the Qur'an was indeed meant to be an eternal guide for the whole of humanity.

    In my opinion, religion has played a major role in shaping our civilisations for the greater good over the course of our very long history - without it I'm not sure where humanity would be now. Maybe that was the purpose of religion and God's intention - religion helped shape humanity into what it is now but we were eventually meant to learn to rely on our souls and intellect to decide on good/bad right/wrong.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #1 - May 17, 2010, 06:08 PM

    Yeah, all that says to me "The qur'an is man-made".
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #2 - May 17, 2010, 06:22 PM

    My opinion differs from yours because the way i see any religion is that religions come and enforce their versions of morality and ethics upon their followers. all these ethics and morals are man made and existed before the invention of religion. and in islam's case it was spread by a very inspirational person who just fine tuned the ethics and morals according to his experiences and called them the word of god. Such as banning alcohol and gambling. I view the "prophets" as reformers.

    i dont agree that religion has been mostly a source of good. religion has been manipulated in most of the global conflicts by the leaders. i assume that u live in europe which is highly godless compared to the rest of the world and the type of humanism and secularism that is thriving can only spread without religion in the mainstream politics and governing policies.

    i do agree that the quran is not relevant for all humanity for nor for all time. but then how do we determine which parts are relevant today and which are not? and that in my opinion leads to religion becoming insignificant. the christians and jews have realized this about their religions but us muslims are still stuck.

    let me know what u think.

    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #3 - May 17, 2010, 06:25 PM

    @ Abu

    No where in the Quran, does it say all verses are for all time. The religion as a whole is (worshipping one God, maintaining the 5 pillars and trying to avoid sin).

    But not all the verses are for ALL time. In fact, there are verses that were frozen even when Muhammed was still alive (for example, the verses related to drinking: the earlier ones were obsolete even when he was stilll alive).

    I usually cite such verses that were made obsolete even before the prophet's death to *try* to silence the vast majority of Muslims who do claim that ALL verses are for ALL time... and if that was not enough, I cite the following verse:

    5:3
    ..... This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion....


    This means that the religion was completed on that day (of pilgrimmage). Note that pilgrimmage is the 5-th pillar of the religion and with it the religion was completed... so for those Muslims who claim ALL Quranic verses to be parts of the religion, the above verse should (hopefully) clarify the falsehood of this invented Islamic doctorine.

    Finally, it can be understood from the Quran itself that not all matters of life has been discussed, and many things are left open, all to make life easier.

    5:101
    O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; God pardons this, and God is Forgiving, Forbearing.
    5:102
    A folk before you asked (for such disclosures) and then disbelieved therein.


    And by the way, Umar abolished cutting-hands for some time when burglary rate was very high. Even modern *Islamists* like Sayyed Qutb believed some things allowed in the Quran, like slavery, to be immoral...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #4 - May 17, 2010, 07:34 PM

    Quote
    In my opinion, religion has played a major role in shaping our civilisations for the greater good over the course of our very long history - without it I'm not sure where humanity would be now. Maybe that was the purpose of religion and God's intention - religion helped shape humanity into what it is now but we were eventually meant to learn to rely on our souls and intellect to decide on good/bad right/wrong.


    Not to seem rude, but you are a seriously confused person. If we don't need religion anymore and it was fine for that particular time, why are you still a Muslim? What is the point?

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #5 - May 17, 2010, 08:01 PM

    Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time?


    No.

    But let me tell you why from my perspective.

    I don't think Muhammad ever imagined his religion would spread as far - or last as long - as it did and the things he said in the Qur'an were all about the situation he was facing.

    Sprinkled on top were traditions of Jews, Christians and myths and babble to impress/convince his audience.

    The Qur'an only makes sense in it's context. If one realises it was Muhammads utterances and responses to the situations he faced.

    It makes no sense if it is supposed to be the God of all mankind - as it makes him look like a very parochial god, obsessed with 7th century Arabia and the traditions of that area. A very local god.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #6 - May 17, 2010, 08:03 PM

    What I want to say yet I can never put it down that Succinct.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #7 - May 17, 2010, 08:18 PM

    I see Abu moving closer to apostasy  whistling2

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #8 - May 17, 2010, 08:23 PM

     Cheesy

    Leave him alone Debunker you devil Tongue
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #9 - May 17, 2010, 08:23 PM

    I see Abu moving closer to apostasy  whistling2


    LOL... give the poor guy more credit, Debunker. After all statistically very few Muslims apostate in comparison to those who believe in some form of reformist/modernist form of Islam - or personal interpretation - like someone else on this thread  whistling2
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #10 - May 17, 2010, 08:34 PM

    Oh come on Hass Smiley the other guy you're referring to is basing all his interpretation on verses from the Quran... for example, that other guy didn't deny Hell, remember?

    Seriously though, I was surprised when I saw the other thread where Abu was thinking that the Quranic God is not necessarily omnipotent... why would anyone consider a being with "limited" powers, to be God, anyway?

    As for this this thread, he sounds like a Quranist... My main objection against Quranists is that they read the Quran as they wish (for example, beating wives becomes making love to them, etc)... in my view Quranists are the closest Muslims to apostasy....

    I hope I didn't offend Abu... I like the dude a lot, but I'm afraid he's closer than ever Smiley

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #11 - May 17, 2010, 08:37 PM

    Oh come on Hass Smiley the other guy you're referring to is basing all his interpretation on verses from the Quran... for example, that other guy didn't deny Hell, remember?

    Seriously though, I was surprised when I saw the other thread where Abu was thinking that the Quranic God is not necessarily omnipotent... why would anyone consider a being with "limited" powers, to be God, anyway?

    As for this this thread, he sounds like a Quranist... My main objection against Quranists is that they read the Quran as they wish (for example, beating wives becomes making love to them, etc)... in my view Quranists are the closest Muslims to apostasy....

    I hope I didn't offend Abu... I like the dude a lot, but I'm afraid he's closer than ever Smiley


    lol... well I have to agree with you and I give you credit for being far more intellectually honest than the Qur'anists.

    Again no offense to Abu - (he's a big hearted guy - I'm sure he can take it  Afro )
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #12 - May 17, 2010, 08:43 PM

    Abuyunus, why don't you take the good messages in Islam and scrap the bad? Develop your own philosophy on life from many sources.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #13 - May 17, 2010, 08:47 PM

    Not to seem rude, but you are a seriously confused person. If we don't need religion anymore and it was fine for that particular time, why are you still a Muslim? What is the point?


    I probably am confused CC, but then again I don't think any of us can claim we know the truth. I guess the difference between me and you for example is that I still have faith that Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc. were messengers of God rather than them being imposters/liars - so that makes me almost by definition a Muslim. I also beleive there are a lot of things from religion that are still useful and beneficial - prayers I feel for example help us feel closer to God and hence enable us to better keep in touch with what is good in our every day lives. I even think that fasting has its benefits for the soul. Hence I do of course still feel that there are aspects of religion that can be of use to us - for those who wish to have faith in them. Also religion make us aware that there is a God - and perhaps that in itself can be important for some people.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #14 - May 17, 2010, 08:48 PM

    So, if there had to be verses/commandments addressing a specific issue at that time, why didn't Allah leave them out from the final edition of the Qur'an? Why do we have to use our own faulty brains in order to figure out what Allah really meant to say in his perfect (yet confusing) word? Why isn't there just a book full of nicely ordered, intelligent and wise stories that could inspire anybody, even the non-believers?

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #15 - May 17, 2010, 08:51 PM

    Yes Aby, I get that, I think then you could have a philosophy on life incorporating the good parts of religions into it with examples by said "prophets" as stories to guide you. These don't have to be the only men/women, you could use more modern humans and also people like Aasop (his fables).
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #16 - May 17, 2010, 08:53 PM

    Maybe look at it in another way.

    What is the nature of revelation? How does God exactly 'inspire' or 'talk" to his 'prophets' - one could argue God is speaking to us all - all the time on different levels - and our Qur'ans are what we create - Leonardo Da Vinci's inventions - Salvador Dali's art - the guitar riffs of Hendrix...

    Just another way of looking at "Divine Revelation"  grin12
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #17 - May 17, 2010, 08:55 PM

    True Hass, I think people need to be more pragmatic about their beliefs and less dogmatic.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #18 - May 17, 2010, 08:56 PM


    The period during which the Quran was revelaed had a very harsh reality and it may perhaps be fair to say that humanity was in the stoneage compared to what it is now. Hence it might follow that we today may find some of the passages of the Quran harsh and innapropriate, whereas these passages may in fact may have been apporpiate/necessary to deal with specific situations of that time. Hence it is possible that passages such as 4:34, cutting off the hands of thieves, flogging of adulterers, encouraging the freeing rather than banning of slavery, for whatever reason they were ordained without sepculating on the details, was done only to contend with very specific relevant conditions at the time.


    I agree, I dont think Muhammeds intention was long term. Otherwise he would also have decided on his successor.  I think he didnt becase he thought it would have been a thorny issue with the rival contenders.

    Quote
    Indeed, the Quran itself says that it was sent down as a 'mercy' to mankind rather than something that we absolutely needed to live good lives. Another argument that one might make to support this general veiw is that Muhammad, it appears, made no attempt to compile the Quran as a single book before he died - something that we might have expected if if the Qur'an was indeed meant to be an eternal guide for the whole of humanity.


    I would have also expected him to keep Europe, Australia or other parts of the globe relevant in the Quran, if that indeed were to be the final book.  For example Iceland does not have sunrise & sunset everyday, but at times every six months.  So what are they supposed to do during the month of ramadhan?  Starve to death?  On the other hand, other issues like water are overly mentioned when only parts of the world would have been suffering from drought like conditions like Arabia.
    Quote
    In my opinion, religion has played a major role in shaping our civilisations for the greater good over the course of our very long history - without it I'm not sure where humanity would be now. Maybe that was the purpose of religion and God's intention - religion helped shape humanity into what it is now but we were eventually meant to learn to rely on our souls and intellect to decide on good/bad right/wrong.

    As you know, the vast vast majority of the quran is spoken as if its a direct instruction to people who are around him about the here & now, so I would agree.  It does say that its a book forever, but I think was intended to show that it was a special book that would outlive their years, and was to show how important the words were.

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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #19 - May 17, 2010, 08:59 PM

    imposters/liars


    I never say Muhammad was a liar - I sincerely believe that he sincerely believed he was communicating with God.

    But we must look at the person - the human being. He was a man of his time. Unless he was a god himself then how could one expect him to be anything other than a 7th century Arab with all the mentality that brought to him. Whatever inspired him was filtered through his person - his perception - his imagination - his cultural references - his concept of what God means - and limited by all that.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #20 - May 17, 2010, 09:01 PM

    And besides there have been thousands of prophets during mankind's history and many of them had followers. Some till this day still manage to get followers. But I dare say it's getting harder and harder to make a profit as a prophet.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #21 - May 17, 2010, 09:04 PM

    debunker and Hass, in my defence i never claimed for example that 'hit them' means 'make love to them' or anything silly like that - what i am saying is that perhaps verses like these, or even most of the Quran, was meant to apply to specific situations that came up during Muhammads Prophethood rather than be rulings for all time.

    and of course both of you, i won't take offence at what you say regarding my position - i consider you friends after all

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #22 - May 17, 2010, 09:21 PM

    I see Abu moving closer to apostasy  whistling2

    The race is still on .. remember? You better hurry up or you might just get pipped to the post  whistling2 http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8651.100

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #23 - May 17, 2010, 09:33 PM

    No.

    But let me tell you why from my perspective.

    I don't think Muhammad ever imagined his religion would spread as far - or last as long - as it did and the things he said in the Qur'an were all about the situation he was facing.

    Sprinkled on top were traditions of Jews, Christians and myths and babble to impress/convince his audience.

    The Qur'an only makes sense in it's context. If one realises it was Muhammads utterances and responses to the situations he faced.

    It makes no sense if it is supposed to be the God of all mankind - as it makes him look like a very parochial god, obsessed with 7th century Arabia and the traditions of that area. A very local god.

    +1

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #24 - May 17, 2010, 09:40 PM

    Maybe look at it in another way.

    What is the nature of revelation? How does God exactly 'inspire' or 'talk" to his 'prophets' - one could argue God is speaking to us all - all the time on different levels - and our Qur'ans are what we create - Leonardo Da Vinci's inventions - Salvador Dali's art - the guitar riffs of Hendrix...

    Just another way of looking at "Divine Revelation"  grin12

    Sounds very Sufi to me Wink

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #25 - May 17, 2010, 10:05 PM

    Maybe look at it in another way.

    What is the nature of revelation? How does God exactly 'inspire' or 'talk" to his 'prophets' - one could argue God is speaking to us all - all the time on different levels - and our Qur'ans are what we create - Leonardo Da Vinci's inventions - Salvador Dali's art - the guitar riffs of Hendrix...

    Just another way of looking at "Divine Revelation"  grin12


    I like your post Hassan, it makes a lot of sense! Afro

    ...
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #26 - May 17, 2010, 10:06 PM

    I see Abu moving closer to apostasy  whistling2


     Cheesy

    ...
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #27 - May 17, 2010, 10:29 PM

    I see Abu moving closer to apostasy  whistling2


    lol true. that's the type of thinking i had before i went all the way and apostated.

    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #28 - May 17, 2010, 10:32 PM

    lol I think I am the only one that missed this step.  But then Ive always been an all or nothing kind of person.

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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #29 - May 17, 2010, 10:54 PM

    Me too.  It's simple; either religion is true or not?  Which is it? An intelligent person should be able to look at the evidence and tell.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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