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Theme Changer

 Topic: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time

 (Read 37199 times)
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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #30 - May 17, 2010, 10:58 PM

    lol true. that's the type of thinking i had before i went all the way and apostated.


    He will leave Islam. Just watch. It will happen sooner or later.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #31 - May 17, 2010, 11:00 PM

    I don't think I will ever apostate. I still have faith - and I do mean that. I do still believe that the Quran was the the word of God revealed via the angel Gabriel to Muhammad - I just believe that the Quran was meant more specifically for 7th century rather than all time - a time where some guidance was necessary.

    I no crazy - honest  Smiley

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #32 - May 17, 2010, 11:02 PM

    Me too.  It's simple; either religion is true or not?  Which is it? An intelligent person should be able to look at the evidence and tell.


    not all of us are as intelligent as you and Islame  Tongue

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #33 - May 17, 2010, 11:07 PM

    No fair, I never claimed to be intelligent.  Just an all or nothing kind of person Tongue

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #34 - May 17, 2010, 11:10 PM

    I don't think I will ever apostate. I still have faith - and I do mean that. I do still believe that the Quran was the the word of God revealed via the angel Gabriel to Muhammad - I just believe that the Quran was meant more specifically for 7th century rather than all time - a time where some guidance was necessary.

    I no crazy - honest  Smiley


    You aren't crazy lol. But your beliefs are. Seriously AY, if you don't believe the Qur'an is for all times, there is no point on being a Muslim.

    If you believe that we don't need religion and we can think for ourselves, then Islam is pointless.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #35 - May 17, 2010, 11:28 PM

    What I like about most ex-muslims, is that contrary to what some muslims would like to believe, we actually were sincere muslims at one time.  We were more sincere that most muslims today. As can be seen from our bio's most of us prayed, read about the religion, and tried our utmost to stay true to what we thought was the message.

    Take a quick look on muslim sites on facebook, and you'll see the exact opposite. Teenage wannabe's, posing by flashy cars in some high street showroom, turning Islam into some kind of gangster label  handjob

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #36 - May 17, 2010, 11:31 PM

    I don't think I will ever apostate. I still have faith - and I do mean that. I do still believe that the Quran was the the word of God revealed via the angel Gabriel to Muhammad - I just believe that the Quran was meant more specifically for 7th century rather than all time - a time where some guidance was necessary.

    I no crazy - honest  Smiley


    so how do u differentiate between what is relevant and what is not? and what do u think about the fairy tales like Noah and his ark or the birds throwing stones on elephants  and killing them?

    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #37 - May 17, 2010, 11:36 PM

    not all of us are as intelligent as you and Islame  Tongue

    I didn't claim to be intelligent either.  Read my statement again. Tongue

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #38 - May 17, 2010, 11:41 PM

    What I like about most ex-muslims, is that contrary to what some muslims would like to believe, we actually were sincere muslims at one time.  We were more sincere that most muslims today. As can be seen from our bio's most of us prayed, read about the religion, and tried our utmost to stay true to what we thought was the message.

    Take a quick look on muslim sites on facebook, and you'll see the exact opposite. Teenage wannabe's, posing by flashy cars in some high street showroom, turning Islam into some kind of gangster label  handjob


    i don't think internet is reflective of real life - in fact it often gives very false impressions. Muslims today are as sincere about their faith as they've ever been - in my opinion - it's just that our thinking is becoming much less dogmatic. On the contrary one could argue that Islam encourages progressive thinking.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #39 - May 17, 2010, 11:50 PM

    Quote
    On the contrary one could argue that Islam encourages progressive thinking.


     Grin

    Abuyunus, take it easy blud  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #40 - May 17, 2010, 11:52 PM

    hehehehe

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #41 - May 18, 2010, 02:57 AM

    I probably am confused CC, but then again I don't think any of us can claim we know the truth. I guess the difference between me and you for example is that I still have faith that Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc. were messengers of God rather than them being imposters/liars - so that makes me almost by definition a Muslim. I also beleive there are a lot of things from religion that are still useful and beneficial - prayers I feel for example help us feel closer to God and hence enable us to better keep in touch with what is good in our every day lives. I even think that fasting has its benefits for the soul. Hence I do of course still feel that there are aspects of religion that can be of use to us - for those who wish to have faith in them. Also religion make us aware that there is a God - and perhaps that in itself can be important for some people.


    Daily prayers/fasting are mainly forms of worship... I never felt fasting was *good for my soul*, on the contrary, it makes me grumpy all day but I fast because it is my duty to worship God...

    By the way, Abu, do you feel God owes you anything? anything at all? A lot of Muslims, surprisingly, do think that God owes them *rewards* if they prayed to him/fasted, etc. Or that He must *justify* particular rituals. I hope you're not one of those, because in this case you didn't understand the true message of submission to God, which is summarrized in this one verse:

    6:162
    Say. Surely my prayer and my nusuk (rituals) and my life and my death are (all) for God, the Lord of the worlds;


    [your entire life is God's].

    And by the way, a big part of the Quran is encompassed in these two verses:

    31:33
    O mankind! do your duty to your Lord, and fear (the coming of) a Day when no father can avail aught for his son, nor a son avail aught for his father. Verily, the promise of God is true: let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the deceiver beguile you, in regard to God.
    31:34
    Surely God is He with Whom is the knowledge of the hour, and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs; and no one knows what he shall earn on the morrow; and no one knows in what land he shall die; surely God is Knowing, Aware.


    [Life, no matter how long, will eventually come to an end, so let's not be deceived by it].

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #42 - May 18, 2010, 07:21 AM

    we actually were sincere muslims at one time.  


    And it is that sincerity that led many of us away in the end. In my own case - once I had come to see Islam through reason rather than faith - I was simply unable to bend and reshape Islam as I wanted it to be and still feel sincere.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #43 - May 18, 2010, 07:24 AM

    i don't think internet is reflective of real life - in fact it often gives very false impressions. Muslims today are as sincere about their faith as they've ever been - in my opinion - it's just that our thinking is becoming much less dogmatic. On the contrary one could argue that Islam encourages progressive thinking.


    Progressive thinking/behaviour needs to be backed up by arguments that justify it - or it is just deviation and lax behaviour.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #44 - May 18, 2010, 09:07 AM

    And it is that sincerity that led many of us away in the end. In my own case - once I had come to see Islam through reason rather than faith - I was simply unable to bend and reshape Islam as I wanted it to be and still feel sincere.


    exactly how I felt then Afro

    ...
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #45 - May 18, 2010, 09:17 AM

    I don't think I will ever apostate.


    What matters is that you continue to think about things and ask questions. What kind of god would want ignorant obedience?

    If something doesn't make sense then it doesn't, accept it, it's not your fault! There's a saying my father-in-law likes to repeat:
    "If the student hasn't learned, it's because the teacher hasn't taught properly."

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #46 - May 18, 2010, 11:02 AM

    What matters is that you continue to think about things and ask questions. What kind of god would want ignorant obedience?

    If something doesn't make sense then it doesn't, accept it, it's not your fault! There's a saying my father-in-law likes to repeat:
    "If the student hasn't learned, it's because the teacher hasn't taught properly."


    So true. I constantly blamed myself for not understanding, for being unable to see how this or that really did make sense. Kept telling myself I was inadequate, limited - I didn't have a enough knowledge.

    The solution was I just needed to learn more - read the right books - speak to the right scholars.

    Every time I read a book or spoke to a scholar and it didn't answer my questions I kept telling myself they were obviously not the right ones.

    Eventually I had to stand back and - without being arrogant - accept that I had in fact studied, read and spoke to more scholars than the vast majority of Muslims have and for many more years than a God could reasonably expect from his creation - that he himself limited.

    A time comes when one must stop blaming the pupil and start pointing the finger at the teacher.

    We give God far too much rope!
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #47 - May 18, 2010, 11:04 AM

    We give God far too much rope!


    I've got some more if he wants to hang himself Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #48 - May 18, 2010, 11:05 AM

    lol I think he already has.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #49 - May 18, 2010, 11:15 AM

    Daily prayers/fasting are mainly forms of worship... I never felt fasting was *good for my soul*, on the contrary, it makes me grumpy all day but I fast because it is my duty to worship God...

    By the way, Abu, do you feel God owes you anything? anything at all? A lot of Muslims, surprisingly, do think that God owes them *rewards* if they prayed to him/fasted, etc. Or that He must *justify* particular rituals. I hope you're not one of those, because in this case you didn't understand the true message of submission to God, which is summarrized in this one verse:

    6:162
    Say. Surely my prayer and my nusuk (rituals) and my life and my death are (all) for God, the Lord of the worlds;


    [your entire life is God's].

    And by the way, a big part of the Quran is encompassed in these two verses:

    31:33
    O mankind! do your duty to your Lord, and fear (the coming of) a Day when no father can avail aught for his son, nor a son avail aught for his father. Verily, the promise of God is true: let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the deceiver beguile you, in regard to God.
    31:34
    Surely God is He with Whom is the knowledge of the hour, and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs; and no one knows what he shall earn on the morrow; and no one knows in what land he shall die; surely God is Knowing, Aware.


    [Life, no matter how long, will eventually come to an end, so let's not be deceived by it].


    I beleive that prayers/fasting are forms of worship as well - i just don't think they are necessarily worship to God in the classic theological sense that a lot of people think them to be (i.e. that God simply wants to be worshiped). i think that there is a much deeper reason behind these acts of worship - they are for the benefit of us rather than the benefit of God (of course i don't mean rewards in heaven etc., but like i said i think they benefit our souls).

    I've never felt that God owes me any rewards or that He must justify anything - I do relaise that it's a bit silly to ask an all-knowing all-wise God to justify anything. I do realise that Islam is all about submission to God - this means i do good that my God-given soul and intellect tells me is good, and i forbid bad that my God-given soul and intellect tells me is bad.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #50 - May 18, 2010, 11:17 AM

    Progressive thinking/behaviour needs to be backed up by arguments that justify it - or it is just deviation and lax behaviour.


    ....well i have been trying...my arguments make sense to me - but everyone of course is free to disagree with me

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #51 - May 18, 2010, 11:20 AM

    What kind of god would want ignorant obedience?




    dude, i think you understand God even less than I do.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #52 - May 18, 2010, 11:21 AM

    I've got some more if he wants to hang himself Smiley


    Cheesy

    ....well i have been trying...my arguments make sense to me - but everyone of course is free to disagree with me


    Aboyunus, may I ask you this question please:

    Are you a Muslim becasue you love Allah so much, or are you afraid of his fire?

    ...
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #53 - May 18, 2010, 11:27 AM

    according to a lot of Muslims I am already destined for the fire anyway, lol. but to beleive in God because of fear has never made sense to me (i realise this is a non-sensical reason to beleive in God - even if it is pascals wager) - i am Muslim because i love God. The God that you think is God and the God that I think is God are very very different to say the least. it is because of God that i am able to love my son and wife - how could i not love God??

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #54 - May 18, 2010, 12:05 PM

    This bit about loving God, that you just mentioned and that born again Christians repeat ad nauseum, is something again I have never understood, now or as a muslim.

    Is Allah is omnipotent, then he would have been able to create us at the click of a finger.  Its not a big deal.  You draw parallels with being a father, but a father invests a lot of effort & time in raising their children, thats why you love them back.  You woulds love your father if he was a serial flirt, who had hundreds of kids and you had never known him personally or even where he lived.

    In other words I find it difficult to love something that you have never heard, seen or touched.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #55 - May 18, 2010, 12:14 PM

    it is because of God that i am able to love my son and wife


    I don't believe that.

    btw I suspect that the God you love is the same God many of us loved at one time. The one we created in our head and tried to superimpose on the Qur'an.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #56 - May 18, 2010, 12:17 PM

    I still wanna love Him but I guess just because I want something to be true doesn't mean that it is true.

    At least I don't have the evidence, I guess I would have to make-believe.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #57 - May 18, 2010, 12:18 PM

    There's no God.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #58 - May 18, 2010, 12:21 PM

    to beleive in God because of fear has never made sense to me


    How do you rationalize that belief against the fact that the Quran talks so much about punishment in order to make the reader have fear?


    it is because of God that i am able to love my son and wife


    No, that will be evolution. Animals with highly dependent offspring which did not love their offspring would have had less surviving offspring, therefore their "Don't give a fuck about my kids" gene didn't do well.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #59 - May 18, 2010, 12:28 PM

    There's no God.


    ROFL
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