Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time

Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 ... 9 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #90 - May 18, 2010, 01:54 PM

''btw what do you think Khalideena and Abadan (Forever/Eternity) mean?''

as far as i am aware according to Arabic lexicography Khalideena can mean 'long time' as well as 'forever' and Abadan can mean 'always' as well as 'forever'. It might be possible that someone can stay in hell 'always' without being in hell forever - if hell itself does not last forever. Some scholars cite this verse indicating that paradise itself may last forever but that hell itself may not last forver:

‘’On the day when it shall come, no soul shall speak except with His permission, then (some) of them shall be unhappy and (others) happy.

So as to those who are unhappy, they shall be in the fire; for them shall be sighing and groaning in it:

Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.

And as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; a gift which shall never be cut off.’’

11:106-108

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #91 - May 18, 2010, 02:14 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 01:54 PM
''btw what do you think Khalideena and Abadan (Forever/Eternity) mean?''

as far as i am aware according to Arabic lexicography Khalideena can mean 'long time' as well as 'forever' and Abadan can mean 'always' as well as 'forever'. It might be possible that someone can stay in hell 'always' without being in hell forever - if hell itself does not last forever. Some scholars cite this verse indicating that paradise itself may last forever but that hell itself may not last forver:

‘’On the day when it shall come, no soul shall speak except with His permission, then (some) of them shall be unhappy and (others) happy.

So as to those who are unhappy, they shall be in the fire; for them shall be sighing and groaning in it:

Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.

And as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; a gift which shall never be cut off.’’

11:106-108

It's playing with words - which is what is left to those who want to wriggle out of what the Qur'an says. Playing with language is easy because one can always find a meaning that suits if one looks long enough. To me it is blindingly obvious it means forever, but I guess I'm either one of those who intentionally covers up the truth - or I guess I haven't studied enough.

Odd how Allah carefully disguised his book to make it look like eternal Hell when it is not eternal. I guess God is a little incompetent. I mean there are hundreds of ways he could have phrased things to make it clear what he meant but instead he used "forever" and "Eternally" and "They will never get out" etc... and kept repeating it in hundreds of verses.

But let us say it is not forever.

How long does it mean?

I mean you do accept it means a very long time - right?

So how long will they be tortured? A thousand years, a Million? A Billion?

Again - do you think torturing them - yes metaphorically of course - but still torture - for a thousand years is a fair punishment? A reasonable punishment? For the handful of guys at the time?

Why would God spend so much of the Qur'an banging on about what is a tiny fraction of people at the time of Muhammad and keep describing in great detail how they will be so deliciously - but metaphorically - tortured over and over again for... well you tell me.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #92 - May 18, 2010, 02:17 PM

btw Paradise is described as Khalideena and abadan also.

So are you saying that in these verses it doesn't mean forever?
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #93 - May 18, 2010, 02:26 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2010, 02:14 PM
It's playing with words - which is what is left to those who want to wriggle out of what the Qur'an says. Playing with language is easy because one can always find a meaning that suits if one looks long enough. To me it is blindingly obvious it means forever, but I guess I'm either one of those who intentionally covers up the truth - or I guess I haven't studied enough.

Odd how Allah carefully disguised his book to make it look like eternal Hell when it is not eternal. I guess God is a little incompetent. I mean there are hundreds of ways he could have phrased things to make it clear what he meant but instead he used "forever" and "Eternally" and "They will never get out" etc... and kept repeating it in hundreds of verses.

But let us say it is not forever.

How long does it mean?

I mean you do accept it means a very long time - right?

So how long will they be tortured? A thousand years, a Million? A Billion?

Again - do you think torturing them - yes metaphorically of course - but still torture - for a thousand years is a fair punishment? A reasonable punishment? For the handful of guys at the time?

Why would God spend so much of the Qur'an banging on about what is a tiny fraction of people at the time of Muhammad and keep describing in great detail how they will be so deliciously - but metaphorically - tortured over and over again for... well you tell me.

I don't think any of us today know the truth so we can't cover the truth or be considered kafir. In addition I don't think that belief in the Quran is necessary to avoid hell and enter paradise. But maybe the people who it was revealed to knew exactly what the Quran meant - they had a messenger of God to explain to them after all.

I don't know how long hell is for - maybe it's even just a few weeks. If someone was subjected to severe mental pain - then I'm sure it would feel like years.

''Why would God spend so much of the Qur'an banging on about what is a tiny fraction of people at the time of Muhammad and keep describing in great detail how they will be so deliciously - but metaphorically - tortured over and over again for... well you tell me.''

I don't know - I wasn't around at the time - so i do not know what the context was.

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #94 - May 18, 2010, 02:32 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 02:26 PM
I don't know how long hell is for - maybe it's even just a few weeks

No comment
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #95 - May 18, 2010, 02:38 PM

why is everyone looking at me like that?

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #96 - May 18, 2010, 02:40 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 02:38 PM
why is everyone looking at me like that?

You made me chuckle with that comment
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #97 - May 18, 2010, 02:42 PM

hehe

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- TheRationalizer
- Pub Regular
- Gone - due to unfair moderation
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #98 - May 18, 2010, 02:43 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 02:38 PM
why is everyone looking at me like that?

You know if you answer every question with "Because Muhammad made it all up" it answers every misunderstanding you can possibly have about the Quran, and doesn't require you to perform mental acrobatics.

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #99 - May 18, 2010, 02:46 PM

Hass, when you were a Muslim how long did you think hell was for - did you think that for as far as you know it could really be any period of time?

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- Lilyesque
- The Deconverter
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #100 - May 18, 2010, 02:47 PM

Aby, as I said, maybe it is easier to accept what are obviously good bits in the Qu'ran and scrap the bits which are dicey to say the least. Put it down to Muhammad being influenced by the harsher nature of his times. Also I do not believe that Hell is anything that the Abrahmic faiths say it was, as I understand it the Hebrew and Arabic words for god is a mistranslation of the name of a valley near Jerusalem where rubbish and criminals who were found guilty of murder and the like were burnt and with the people burnt to death. It is simply a expansion on hearsay of this place the concept of this hell in the afterlife.
- TheRationalizer
- Pub Regular
- Gone - due to unfair moderation
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #101 - May 18, 2010, 02:56 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 02:46 PM
Hass, when you were a Muslim how long did you think hell was for - did you think that for as far as you know it could really be any period of time?

Look at my question about the money and the fire. Is there any amount of money in the entire world for which you would endure 60 seconds of intense gas fired flames all over your body, even if I could guarantee you would live?

If these people KNEW, what could possibly have been attractive enough to them to convince them to deny what was unquestionably true and therefore leading them to some period of time in fire (or equivalent experience)? Can you think of anything that would be worth it?

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #102 - May 18, 2010, 02:59 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 02:46 PM
Hass, when you were a Muslim how long did you think hell was for - did you think that for as far as you know it could really be any period of time?

I believed it was eternal - that's what it plainly says - no two ways about it imho. At first I didn't think about it too much - my faith and enthusiasm just made me put it in the box labelled "God will explain it all later" (that box became very full and I had to get a bigger box eventually ).

But as time went on and as my faith started waning with the constant questions and doubts - I became desperate to try and make it make sense. I started arguing that Hell meant the pain and anguish one suffers due to the harm one caused to others and that it was in some way a healing process that would one day lead to one's 'purification' and was not simply eternal punishment. I tried to bring in all the arguments I now see others doing - including yourself - to try and bend it to what I wanted.

I'm afraid that just made me feel dishonest and I grew tired of this game.

Not that I'm accusing you of being dishonest - I just think ppl are different - some are more willing to go further than I am willing to defend things that don't really make sense.
- Saif Rahman
- Ex-Muslim
- Je suis Haram
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #103 - May 18, 2010, 03:18 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 18, 2010, 02:43 PM
You know if you answer every question with "Because Muhammad made it all up" it answers every misunderstanding you can possibly have about the Quran, and doesn't require you to perform mental acrobatics.

couldnt have put it better myself

My Book
My Blog
- ateapotist
- Supermassive Black Hole
- Ex-Muslim
- Spaghettifier Extraordinaire
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #104 - May 18, 2010, 03:28 PM

+10000

occam's razor springs to mind.

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

Baloney Detection Kit
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #105 - May 18, 2010, 04:37 PM

@ Abu

Quote
i think that there is a much deeper reason behind these acts of worship - they are for the benefit of us rather than the benefit of God (of course i don't mean rewards in heaven etc., but like i said i think they benefit our souls).

Rather than the benifit of God?!!! Do you think that God demands worship because that 'benifits' Him in anyway? I've been over this many times, I could copy/paste from other posts, but the bottom line is worship is simply a *duty* imposed upon us... if you find it enjoyable (like fasting is good for your soul in your case) then lucky you, but hey, it does NOT have to be enjoyable... in fact, in the Quran, God demands "patience" for prayer/worship... (Ta Ha: 132; Maryam: 65)... so no, even if you don't find it enjoyable, Abu, too bad, you gotta do it anyway.

Quote
I've never felt that God owes me any rewards or that He must justify anything - I do relaise that it's a bit silly to ask an all-knowing all-wise God to justify anything. I do realise that Islam is all about submission to God - this means i do good that my God-given soul and intellect tells me is good, and i forbid bad that my God-given soul and intellect tells me is bad.

well, that's very subjective, but overall, I agree with you.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #106 - May 18, 2010, 04:38 PM

@ RIBS

although your question is directed at Abu, I hope you don't mind my answering.

Quote
Are you a Muslim becasue you love Allah so much, or are you afraid of his fire?

First and foremost I submit to God simply because I believe this is only fair, regardless of fire/paradise.

For example, if someone gave me some money and told me they'd come back later to reclaim it, I'd most certainly hand them back the money, regardless whether I hated that person, loved them, regardless of wheather they needed it or not, and regardless whether they could punish me or not for giving them back the money.

Now I believe that my life and my very being is God's... So I have no other option but to live this life in submission to its owner, regardless of the fact that He doesn't need my submission, and regardless of wheather He'd punish/reward me.

The other reason why I submit to God is indeed love, and lastly fear of fire, but these two, to me, are besides the point anyway. I have a duty of submitting my life to its rightful owner (worshipping God), that's the bottom line.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #107 - May 18, 2010, 04:40 PM

@ Hassan

Quote
That's for the lesser mortals - ignorant rabble - who won't respond to anything else.

That's exactly what I believe.

Quote
That's the usual argument.

Mine too.. i can't imagine a simple-minded fishrman, for example, can understand anything beyond the concept of reward/punishment.

Quote
Funny how I never meet any of these guys who say "Yeah, we obey coz we're scared shitless!"

Really?! Most of the Muslims i know worship God precisely for that!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #108 - May 18, 2010, 04:40 PM

Debunker how do you feel about saying the shahada? Especially the second part? And how do you feel about alla home sali ala mohammed wa ali mohammad? Especially in prayer? And other parts where you bless mohammad in prayer?
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #109 - May 18, 2010, 04:50 PM

Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 04:40 PM
i can't imagine a simple-minded fishrman, for example, can understand anything beyond the concept of reward/punishment.

I'd like to think they can. I would hope all men should aspire to something more than the stick and carrot we use to motivate donkeys.

But regardless - if that is the case, it reflects badly on humanity and even worse on it's creator.

Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 04:40 PM
Really?! Most of the Muslims i know worship God precisely for that!

I guess we move in different circles.
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #110 - May 18, 2010, 04:55 PM

Can I just interject with something?

Hassan is pure sex.
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #111 - May 18, 2010, 04:55 PM
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #112 - May 18, 2010, 05:17 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on May 18, 2010, 04:40 PM
Debunker how do you feel about saying the shahada? Especially the second part? And how do you feel about alla home sali ala mohammed wa ali mohammad? Especially in prayer? And other parts where you bless mohammad in prayer?

lol! You have this habit of asking questions out of nowhere, BD

Anyway, I don't feel anything's wrong about *praying* for Muhammed during my prayer.

As for the Shahada, including his name is only meant to emphasize that you believe in the Quran.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #113 - May 18, 2010, 05:24 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2010, 04:50 PM
I'd like to think they can. I would hope all men should aspire to something more than the stick and carrot we use to motivate donkeys.

But regardless - if that is the case, it reflects badly on humanity and even worse on it's creator.

yeah, it does reflect badly on humanity, but not the Creator... Him choosing to make a perfect/imperfect creation is a different issue (although perfection is always a relative issue, only God is ABSOLUTELY perfetct, anyway).

Quote
I guess we move in different circles.

I have come to realize that... where I come from, most Muslims are Muslims without ever thinking why this or why that... as for non-adherent Muslims, they simply believe God is merciful and leave it at that (somewhat in parallel with 'Jesus loves you' so you can do whatever you want, mindset).

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #114 - May 18, 2010, 05:26 PM

@ Hassan

Quote
Metaphor doesn't mean I say "I'm going to skewer your eyes out with red hot pokers" - when I really mean "Sit in the corner for an hour and think about what you've done!"

LOL!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #115 - May 18, 2010, 05:29 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on May 18, 2010, 04:55 PM
Can I just interject with something?

Hassan is pure sex.

LOL
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #116 - May 18, 2010, 05:44 PM

@ Abu

Quote
I have no idea if they were sane or not. I already stated that I think the punishments in the Quran are metaphorical and that hell is not forever. I don't have time now but i'll start a thread soon arguing why hell as described in Qur'an may not be forever.

I can't wait for you to start the thread... but for now let me ask you 2 tiny questions and I really hope you'd answer honestly:

1- Do you think that even the vilest of vilest humans would torture *anyone* in Hell for *eternity*? (I'm stealing this from Hassan, by the way).

2- I know you don't believe in the eternity of Hell... true, some big name scholars, like Ibn Taimiah don't believe that either.. Heck, there's this silly little Hadith that says Hell is NOT forever (contradicting the entire Quran). Also, it is true, according to Quran, that not all people who go to Hell stay there forever, but some of them do... Now, suppose that God, evetually, takes out everyone out of Hell, except *Satan*... He tortures him, for not a 1000 years or a trillion years, but for ALL eternity... would you still believe in Islam, if yu believed that at least Satan stays in Hell forever?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #117 - May 18, 2010, 05:54 PM

1- probably not

2- Yes

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #118 - May 18, 2010, 06:03 PM

Quote
1- probably not

2- Yes

Great, so I don't see the point of you 'wrestling' with the idea of an eternal Hell. You do seem to me that you are very disturbed by it...

Anyway, let me ask you another question:

Suppose, it's not only Satan who stays in Hell forever... let's add 100 more people with him in eternity of torment in Hell... would you still believe in a book whicj would claim this?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #119 - May 18, 2010, 06:06 PM

by the way, Abu, your first avatar gave a more enthusiastic impression whereas this one reeks of disappointment... just saying.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 ... 9 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »