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 Topic: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time

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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #120 - May 18, 2010, 06:07 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 05:44 PM
    suppose that God, evetually, takes out everyone out of Hell, except *Satan*.


    I would start a petition and organise a sit-in - and go on hunger-strike - and Houri-strike until he was released.

  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #121 - May 18, 2010, 06:09 PM
    i'd find it extremely difficult - in fact probably impossible to believe in this
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:03 PM
    Great, so I don't see the point of you 'wrestling' with the idea of an eternal Hell. You do seem to me that you are very disturbed by it...

    Anyway, let me ask you another question:

    Suppose, it's not only Satan who stays in Hell forever... let's add 100 more people with him in eternity of torment in Hell... would you still believe in a book whicj would claim this?


    i'd find it extremely difficult - in fact probably impossible to believe in this
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #122 - May 18, 2010, 06:09 PM
    Quote
    I would start a petition and a sit in - and go on hunger-strike - and Houri-strike until he was released.


    I know you would Hassan... indeed, why should Satan suffering an *eternity* of Hell be any less horrible than a human with a similar fate.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #123 - May 18, 2010, 06:10 PM
    Debunker if you ended up in hell, an eternity of torment would hate you Allah after a while?
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #124 - May 18, 2010, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 06:09 PM
    i'd find it extremely difficult - in fact probably impossible to believe in this
    i'd find it extremely difficult - in fact probably impossible to believe in this


    Oh please Abu, it's a yes/no question.. I need a straight answer... let's stop beating around the bush Smiley
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #125 - May 18, 2010, 06:12 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:09 PM
    I know you would Hassan... indeed, why should Satan suffering an *eternity* of Hell be any less horrible than a human with a similar fate.


    This including Shaitan had more evidence than any of us of God's existence and Hell's punishments and the fact that Shaitan is (more or less) behind all of the evils of the world. This will sound funny but seriously an eternity is an awfully long time.

    The question is why can't God punish somebody in accordance to what they have done? Or let them feel the pain the others have felt? Instead of this fire and for an eternity.

    And also burn people for not believing?  mysmilie_977
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #126 - May 18, 2010, 06:13 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:11 PM
    Oh please Abu, it's a yes/no question.. I need a straight answer... let's stop beating around the bush Smiley


    What about you Debunker? What's your answer.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #127 - May 18, 2010, 06:13 PM
    There is not a crime on Earth committed by anyone at any point through history (including millions killed in concentration camps in WWII) that would get me to sentence someone to death by fire let alone punish them for an indeterminate period of time in fire.

    As for committing "Satan" to hell for eternity...

    Imagine the worst creature in existence, a creature which would end all life everywhere if it ever escaped it's prison, or worse still torture all live forever. Let's assume this creature cannot be killed, so we have no choice but to imprison it for all eternity.

    Would you just imprison that creature for eternity, or would you also torture it for eternity?

    I would imprison through necessity, but I wouldn't even torture this "pure evil" beast. If I tortured it then I would be a monster, to torture it for eternity would make me an infinite monster, I would be utterly disgusting.

    As I wrote this description of my fictitious "Satan" it occurred to me, I am describing Yahweh/Allah.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #128 - May 18, 2010, 06:13 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:06 PM
    by the way, Abu, your first avatar gave a more enthusiastic impression whereas this one reeks of disappointment... just saying.


    i wouldn't read too much into it. but i am in general getting the feeling that there are things that I will never understand in this lifetime.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #129 - May 18, 2010, 06:13 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 18, 2010, 06:10 PM
    Debunker if you ended up in hell, an eternity of torment would hate you Allah after a while?


    Not really... I already know i have *no right* to object if that happened... everything a man thinks he owns, is really not his... not his soul, not his flesh.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #130 - May 18, 2010, 06:14 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 18, 2010, 06:13 PM
    What about you Debunker? What's your answer.


    yes.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #131 - May 18, 2010, 06:15 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:11 PM
    Oh please Abu, it's a yes/no question.. I need a straight answer... let's stop beating around the bush Smiley


    My answer was no
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #132 - May 18, 2010, 06:17 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:13 PM
    Not really... I already know i have *no right* to object if that happened... everything a man thinks he owns, is really not his... not his soul, not his flesh.


    That's interesting. I take it Allah asked you before if you wished to exist along with the possibility of eternal torment? He had your approval of existing? Because as far as I know I had no choice in this matter.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #133 - May 18, 2010, 06:17 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:13 PM
    Not really... I already know i have *no right* to object if that happened... everything a man thinks he owns, is really not his... not his soul, not his flesh.


    I know you don't like me addressing you but that's tough, because what you just said is utter bollocks.

    If someone burns someone else with fire you have *no right* to object if the tortured person is "owned" by the torturer? Utter crap!  My wife brought my children into this world, that does NOT give her permission to throw them into fire.  IF (and this is a BIG "if") there is a God who created us that doesn't mean this "god" can throw us into fire and not have us think he is an utter bastard. He may be bigger than me, he may be able to throw me into fire, but there is no way he can stop me from thinking he is an utter shit head.

    Get a back bone!
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #134 - May 18, 2010, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 06:15 PM
    My answer was no


    Could you love any conscious being that tortures people for crimes by burning their entire body in fire even for a short period of time?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #135 - May 18, 2010, 06:19 PM
    Quote
    My answer was no


    Hallejuah! You are already part of the club, Abu! Congrats!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #136 - May 18, 2010, 06:19 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:14 PM
    yes.


    Do you believe God is omnibenevolent?
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #137 - May 18, 2010, 06:20 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:09 PM
    I know you would Hassan... indeed, why should Satan suffering an *eternity* of Hell be any less horrible than a human with a similar fate.


    If God really did create an eternal Hell, I would demand to be sent there.

    He wants my willing submission? I will use the only thing I have to spite him - my free will.

    He can take that away of course - but as long as I have it - I will never give it willingly to him.

    He can tell himself he's great - but he will know I was there spitting in his eye.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #138 - May 18, 2010, 06:22 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 18, 2010, 06:17 PM
    That's interesting. I take it Allah asked you before if you wished to exist along with the possibility of eternal torment? He had your approval of existing? Because as far as I know I had no choice in this matter.


    well, He creates whatever He wants and does whatever He wants... besides, if I really didn't treasure my life (which no one took my permission to have it since I wasn't around anyway, before actually having it), I would end it right now.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #139 - May 18, 2010, 06:22 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:19 PM
    Hallejuah! You are already part of the club, Abu! Congrats!



    what club?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #140 - May 18, 2010, 06:24 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 18, 2010, 06:18 PM
    Could you love any conscious being that tortures people for crimes by burning their entire body in fire even for a short period of time?


     i already said i don't beleive there is any fire - it's mental torment designed for reform and justice.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #141 - May 18, 2010, 06:24 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2010, 06:20 PM
    If God really did create an eternal Hell, I would demand to be sent there.

    He wants my willing submission? I will use the only thing I have to spite him - my free will.

    He can take that away of course - but as long as I have it - I will never give it willingly to him.

    He can tell himself he's great - but he will know I was there spitting in his eye.


    Allah is not all powerful. He cannot both give me freewill AND make me love him. You summed up my feelings perfectly, that would make an excellent video Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #142 - May 18, 2010, 06:25 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 18, 2010, 06:17 PM
    I know you don't like me addressing you but that's tough, because what you just said is utter bollocks.

    If someone burns someone else with fire you have *no right* to object if the tortured person is "owned" by the torturer? Utter crap!  My wife brought my children into this world, that does NOT give her permission to throw them into fire.  IF (and this is a BIG "if") there is a God who created us that doesn't mean this "god" can throw us into fire and not have us think he is an utter bastard. He may be bigger than me, he may be able to throw me into fire, but there is no way he can stop me from thinking he is an utter shit head.

    Get a back bone!


    by the way, I didn't read any of your crap.. .but in case if you were wondering, why you, of all members here, I choose not to talk to, it's because nothing irritates me more than a stupid person like yourself acting all smart and shit... you're like a revoltingly ugly chick who's too arrogant thinking she's actually beautiful....such a sight is nauseating... you are nauseating!  
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #143 - May 18, 2010, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 06:24 PM
    i already said i don't beleive there is any fire - it's mental torment designed for reform and justice.


    Yes, a mental torment equivalent to experiencing your skin burning off in fire only to be replaced in order to be burned off again.  So, considering the "mental torment" is equivalent to burning in fire we may as well just say "burning in fire".

    So I repeat my question, but slightly rephrased.

    Could you love any conscious being that tortures people for crimes with something equivalent to burning their entire body in fire even for a short period of time?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #144 - May 18, 2010, 06:27 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:25 PM
    by the way, I didn't read any of your crap.. .but in case if you were wondering, why you, of all members here, I choose not to talk to, it's because nothing irritates me more than a stupid person like yourself acting all smart and shit... you're like a revoltingly ugly chick who's too arrogant thinking she's actually beautiful....such a sight is nauseating... you are nauseating!  


    I said what I needed to say, if you "heard" it or not is insignificant. Your apathy towards human suffering disgusts me.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #145 - May 18, 2010, 06:27 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 06:22 PM
    what club?


    Atheists club, my dear.. you just don't know it yet... hopefully members here will eventually make you see your truth... but hey, I still love you, as always far away hug
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #146 - May 18, 2010, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:25 PM
    by the way, I didn't read any of your crap.. .but in case if you were wondering, why you, of all members here, I choose not to talk to, it's because nothing irritates me more than a stupid person like yourself acting all smart and shit... you're like a revoltingly ugly chick who's too arrogant thinking she's actually beautiful....such a sight is nauseating... you are nauseating!  


    That was out of order, Debunker - I have never seen anything he has said to deserve that outburst.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #147 - May 18, 2010, 06:29 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2010, 06:28 PM
    That was out of order, Debunker - I have never seen anything he has said to deserve that outburst.


    In fairness I was once arrogant in a conversation we had.  I was so certain I was right about something and would not listen, only to later discover I was wrong. Not sure I deserve Debunker's eternal punishment for it though Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #148 - May 18, 2010, 06:31 PM
    Quote
    That was out of order, Debunker - I have never seen anything he has said to deserve that outburst.


    Ok, could you be "less" politically correct, Hassan and answer this question:

    What if you are disgusted by someone, for whatever reason, and asked them, no, begged them many times not to address you and yet they keep doing it regardless, wouldn't you consider this as an insult of no small measure?

    yes, what I said was harsh, but that's exactly why I can't stand this dude!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #149 - May 18, 2010, 06:33 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 18, 2010, 06:26 PM
    Yes, a mental torment equivalent to experiencing your skin burning off in fire only to be replaced in order to be burned off again.  So, considering the "mental torment" is equivalent to burning in fire we may as well just say "burning in fire".

    So I repeat my question, but slightly rephrased.

    Could you love any conscious being that tortures people for crimes with something equivalent to burning their entire body in fire even for a short period of time?



    Yes, i could love a conscious being that subjects people to mental torment for the sake of reform and justice for evil crimes they commited, even for a short period of time.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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