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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hijab

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  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #150 - June 26, 2010, 01:04 AM
    I meant modesty as in 'humbleness.'

    It's kind of hard to explain my views but let me put it this way. Actually I don't really care, to be honest with you. I don't care about it as I used to, even though I support Muslim women's rights to wear what they want for the sake of the Lord, because I think there are many bigger issues that the Muslim world (including the women) have to worry about today.

  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #151 - June 26, 2010, 01:07 AM
    Sorry Wizzie but why don't men need hijab to be humble?

    They can act humble right?

    So why can't women?
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #152 - June 26, 2010, 01:12 AM
    Quote from: wizzie on June 26, 2010, 01:04 AM
    I meant modesty as in 'humbleness.'

    It's kind of hard to explain my views but let me put it this way. Actually I don't really care, to be honest with you. I don't care about it as I used to, even though I support Muslim women's rights to wear what they want for the sake of the Lord, because I think there are many bigger issues that the Muslim world (including the women) have to worry about today.




    but thats just it, habibi... There should be NO compulsion in religion...period!  It shouldnt be something you HAVE to do, but rather, something you CHOOSE to do for your belief system.  Just because i am an ex muslim, doesnt mean im running around half naked, getting drunk, or any other kaffir stuff.  I am modest by nature, not because of a religion.  I still have strong values, morals, and strong beliefs in what is right and wrong.  The biggest difference is I no longer "guilt" or "fear" to do or not do something.  I do/not do something because of my morals and values, by choice...not forced to.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #153 - June 26, 2010, 01:14 AM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on June 26, 2010, 01:12 AM
    but thats just it, habibi... There should be NO compulsion in religion...period!  It shouldnt be something you HAVE to do, but rather, something you CHOOSE to do for your belief system.  Just because i am an ex muslim, doesnt mean im running around half naked, getting drunk, or any other kaffir stuff.  I am modest by nature, not because of a religion.  I still have strong values, morals, and strong beliefs in what is right and wrong.  The biggest difference is I no longer "guilt" or "fear" to do or not do something.  I do/not do something because of my morals and values, by choice...not forced to.


    I am though  dance
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #154 - June 26, 2010, 01:17 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 26, 2010, 01:07 AM
    Sorry Wizzie but why don't men need hijab to be humble?

    They can act humble right?

    So why can't women?


    Men have their own dress code they need to adhere to.
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #155 - June 26, 2010, 01:17 AM
    Quote from: wizzie on June 26, 2010, 01:04 AM
    I meant modesty as in 'humbleness.'

    Then your original statement doesn't make sense.

    If you meant modesty as in sexual reserve, I can see where you're coming from although I don't view sexual reserve as a virtue.

    If you meant modesty as in humbleness, you statement doesn't make sense. Humble can mean:
    -unassuming in attitude and behaviour
    -respectful = feeling or showing respect and deference towards other people
    -lowly = without pretensions
    Wearing hijab per se dosen't infer any of the above.
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #156 - June 26, 2010, 01:19 AM
    Quote from: wizzie on June 26, 2010, 01:17 AM
    Men have their own dress code they need to adhere to.


    But luv how does a beard make me humble? Or having pants above my ankles?

    Shouldn't me acting humble come first and foremost?
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #157 - June 26, 2010, 01:29 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 26, 2010, 01:14 AM
    I am though  dance

    you are what? dancing nekkid while drunk?  Cheesy
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #158 - June 26, 2010, 01:30 AM
     Cheesy

     yes bunny piggy
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #159 - June 26, 2010, 01:59 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 25, 2010, 07:13 AM
    Is it really mandatory?

    I know there is verse about covering bosom in Quran. And then the hadith about Umar spying on Muhammad's wife taking a shit. And him asking the Prophets wives to cover up. Not sure if this then extends automatcially to all women.


    covering up was cultural. even pagans did it. there is no verse in the quran about head covering. the verse u mention is 24:31 it does not even use the word "head" in it. stupid mullahs and their interpretations have made it miserable for so many Muslim women.
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #160 - June 26, 2010, 04:49 AM
    Alright fine, I'll turn tables for once.

    Let me ask a question - why is the West so concerned about a number of Muslim women wearing hijab, even if it's out of choice?
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #161 - June 26, 2010, 05:45 AM
    Because there are lot of the muslim women who are forced to wear the scarf (punishment for going against it is for example honour killings)...And without people making a noise about it and making people aware that these things exists, there will be all these women (and girls) who will suffer, under controlling even abusive men.

    A lot of women are told they have to wear it and islam demands it, so they don't get the choice.

    I was forced to wear the scarf. It's only been over a year and a half since I've taken the scarf off and I'm loving it, I was made to wear it from when I started high school.
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #162 - June 26, 2010, 05:59 AM
    Quote from: canex on June 26, 2010, 01:59 AM
    covering up was cultural. even pagans did it. there is no verse in the quran about head covering. the verse u mention is 24:31 it does not even use the word "head" in it. stupid mullahs and their interpretations have made it miserable for so many Muslim women.


    bro man you can't say that its just not being fair. If you look at the hadith as soon as the women heard the verses they knew exactly what they meant and ripped their clothes and used it as a hijab.

     1 – It was narrated from Safiyyah bint Shaybah that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) used to say: When these words were revealed – “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” – they took their izaars (a kind of garment) and tore them from the edges and covered their faces with them.

    Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4481. The following version was narrated by Abu Dawood (4102):

    May Allaah have mercy on the Muhaajir women. When Allaah revealed the words “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)”, they tore the thickest of their aprons (a kind of garment) and covered their faces with them.

    there are numerous other hadith where it shows women wearing the hijab/niqaab. How was it a cultural thing when they obviously didn't wear it before these verses were revealed?
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #163 - June 26, 2010, 01:14 PM
    Quote from: wizzie on June 26, 2010, 04:49 AM
    Alright fine, I'll turn tables for once.

    Let me ask a question - why is the West so concerned about a number of Muslim women wearing hijab, even if it's out of choice?

    If it's TRULY out of choice, I have no problem with it; but often when you look deeper, you see all kinds of religious and cultural pressures that young women are under to wear the hijab or niqab.  My teenage sister has to wear the niqab and hasn't got many freedoms to go out etc.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #164 - June 26, 2010, 01:18 PM
    It must suck to wear hijab, especially in the summer.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #165 - June 26, 2010, 01:57 PM
    A bit of trivia for yall.. did you know that up to the 1950s/60s American woman HAD TO wear a hat
    and gloves any time they went outside in a city?  Its True!
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #166 - June 26, 2010, 09:56 PM
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB_pSOkb63c
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #167 - June 26, 2010, 10:03 PM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on June 26, 2010, 01:57 PM
    A bit of trivia for yall.. did you know that up to the 1950s/60s American woman HAD TO wear a hat
    and gloves any time they went outside in a city?  Its True!


    source lol ?
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #168 - June 26, 2010, 10:07 PM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 26, 2010, 05:59 AM
    bro man you can't say that its just not being fair. If you look at the hadith as soon as the women heard the verses they knew exactly what they meant and ripped their clothes and used it as a hijab.

     1 – It was narrated from Safiyyah bint Shaybah that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) used to say: When these words were revealed – “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” – they took their izaars (a kind of garment) and tore them from the edges and covered their faces with them.

    Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4481. The following version was narrated by Abu Dawood (4102):

    May Allaah have mercy on the Muhaajir women. When Allaah revealed the words “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)”, they tore the thickest of their aprons (a kind of garment) and covered their faces with them.

    there are numerous other hadith where it shows women wearing the hijab/niqaab. How was it a cultural thing when they obviously didn't wear it before these verses were revealed?



    these veils were cultural to begin with. they were worn by men and women. they were primarily worn to protect from the blowing sand and sun. the verse was thought up by mohammad when some women were displaying their breasts to men about to engage in warfare. again remember that there was no necessity to cover the hair for women in particular. the quranic verse was "revealed" to cover the chest.

    dunno much about the hadths. but again thats the poverty of sunni islam that relies so heavily on irrational hadiths.
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #169 - June 26, 2010, 10:13 PM
    codex.. it was part of an anthropology class i took years ago.  i will TRY to find that book
    (omg!! LOL) dust it off and give you the precise reference. lol

    wizzie.  Here in the states, sometimes its the family that dictates the woman wear a hijab. The ones i have known also wore a long coat with it.  But as far as american law, there are no dictates to wear a hijab.  Its up to the woman (or as her family dictates to her)
    No one is going to rebuke her outside of her own home.

    After 9/11 SOME chose to not wear it outside because it was a sensitive issue with
    Americans
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #170 - June 26, 2010, 10:23 PM
    Quote from: canex on June 26, 2010, 10:07 PM
    these veils were cultural to begin with. they were worn by men and women. they were primarily worn to protect from the blowing sand and sun. the verse was thought up by mohammad when some women were displaying their breasts to men about to engage in warfare. again remember that there was no necessity to cover the hair for women in particular. the quranic verse was "revealed" to cover the chest.

    dunno much about the hadths. but again thats the poverty of sunni islam that relies so heavily on irrational hadiths.


    You're right. The veil predates Islam. You're correct on the whole protection from sun and sand storm thing. I've met women who wear niqab not only for the sake of Allah but because they want to preserve their skin's bright color. By going out in the sun, they would tan and generally in suck cultures, light skin is looked at as something beautiful as opposed to dark skin.

    Also, they covered in Arabia because the different tribes would battle often. So for the women's protection from meeting with other tribesmen and getting attacked, they would cover from head to toe. That way, you'd never know.
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #171 - June 26, 2010, 10:49 PM
    here ya go codex.  excerpt from this site

    http://www.fashion-era.com/hats-hair/hats_hair_1_wearing_hats_fashion_history.htm

    Etiquette articles suggest that it would be A disgraceful act to venture out of the house without a hat or even gloves.  One record tells of a young lady venturing out to post a letter without her hat and gloves and being severely reprimanded for not being appropriately dressed.  The post box was situated a few yards from her front garden gate.


    ADDENDUM:  There were cities in the US that had made it law that a woman must
    wear a hat/gloves in the city.. dont worry, i wil lfind it for you
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #172 - June 27, 2010, 03:01 PM
    Quote from: canex on June 26, 2010, 10:07 PM
    these veils were cultural to begin with. they were worn by men and women. they were primarily worn to protect from the blowing sand and sun. the verse was thought up by mohammad when some women were displaying their breasts to men about to engage in warfare. again remember that there was no necessity to cover the hair for women in particular. the quranic verse was "revealed" to cover the chest.

    dunno much about the hadths. but again thats the poverty of sunni islam that relies so heavily on irrational hadiths.




    Could you please explain the meaning of the word "Juyoobihinna" using your vast knowledge of the Arabic language?

    Quote from: DARKEYED9 on June 26, 2010, 10:23 PM
    You're right. The veil predates Islam. You're correct on the whole protection from sun and sand storm thing.


    maybe you could please provide a source? If women already covered why would the verses need to be revealed?

    You may have trouble finding this because very little written history of pre-islamic arabia exists. Even the "orientalists" derive their info from Islamic sources (hadith). You may find sources that say the veil existed in other places such as Persia but not arabia.

    In fact I could bring you a number of hadith that show women did not cover their faces in Arabia before these verses were revealed. (nor men for that matter)

    inb4 canex says the hadith are not true while making claims and bringing no evidence at all.
    [/quote]
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #173 - June 27, 2010, 03:23 PM
    I even found a non hadith source regarding pre islamic arbian dress and there is no mention of the veil

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=RBIOC40E6FcC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=pre+islamic+dress&source=bl&ots=ka_2yHVjR3&sig=oMmffO5agDQLFpuYdr4lBSdVT3A&hl=en&ei=M2QnTIDyK4H_8AbHrK2xDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=pre%20islamic%20dress&f=false
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #174 - June 27, 2010, 03:55 PM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 27, 2010, 03:01 PM
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Could you please explain the meaning of the word "Juyoobihinna" using your vast knowledge of the Arabic language?

    maybe you could please provide a source? If women already covered why would the verses need to be revealed?

    You may have trouble finding this because very little written history of pre-islamic arabia exists. Even the "orientalists" derive their info from Islamic sources (hadith). You may find sources that say the veil existed in other places such as Persia but not arabia.

    In fact I could bring you a number of hadith that show women did not cover their faces in Arabia before these verses were revealed. (nor men for that matter)

    inb4 canex says the hadith are not true while making claims and bringing no evidence at all.



    sigh.

    you need to read "The veil and the male elite" by Fatima Mernissi and "Chasing a Mirage" by tarek fatah. These two authors go into great detail regarding the veil and its historical contexts. I have read Tarek's book and thats why I have stated earlier what I did. I am not going to type out what the book says. Look these books up they will really give you a much better understanding.
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #175 - June 27, 2010, 06:04 PM
    Quote from: canex on June 27, 2010, 03:55 PM
    sigh.

    you need to read "The veil and the male elite" by Fatima Mernissi and "Chasing a Mirage" by tarek fatah. These two authors go into great detail regarding the veil and its historical contexts. I have read Tarek's book and thats why I have stated earlier what I did. I am not going to type out what the book says. Look these books up they will really give you a much better understanding.


    WHY DON"T YOU POST AN EXCERPT FROM THE BOOK TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #176 - June 27, 2010, 06:22 PM
    Quote from: canex on June 27, 2010, 03:55 PM
    sigh.

    you need to read "The veil and the male elite" by Fatima Mernissi and "Chasing a Mirage" by tarek fatah. These two authors go into great detail regarding the veil and its historical contexts. I have read Tarek's book and thats why I have stated earlier what I did. I am not going to type out what the book says. Look these books up they will really give you a much better understanding.


    As an Islamic feminist, Mernissi is largely concerned with Islam and women's roles in it, analyzing the historical development of Islamic thought and its modern manifestation. Through a detailed investigation of the nature of the succession to Muhammad, she casts doubt on the validity of some of the hadith  (sayings and traditions attributed to him), and therefore the subordination of women that she sees in Islam, but not necessarily in the Qur'an.

    this looks legit  Roll Eyes

    seriously canex...you should be able to post simple historical facts to back up your claims ...until you do this (or put forth any evidence at all  Roll Eyes ) you should shut your mouth because you are part of the reason that people think this site does not put forth fair arguments against Islam
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #177 - June 27, 2010, 09:38 PM
    Darkeyed... thats a brave woman.   also notice how few people bothered to stop and see if she was alright.
    Man, i got a HEAVY burden for the persians. 
    and noticed your tag on your avitar lol.  Afro  I wore my ring today, just because i know you want it   Tongue
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #178 - June 27, 2010, 09:59 PM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 27, 2010, 06:22 PM
    As an Islamic feminist, Mernissi is largely concerned with Islam and women's roles in it, analyzing the historical development of Islamic thought and its modern manifestation. Through a detailed investigation of the nature of the succession to Muhammad, she casts doubt on the validity of some of the hadith  (sayings and traditions attributed to him), and therefore the subordination of women that she sees in Islam, but not necessarily in the Qur'an.

    this looks legit  Roll Eyes

    seriously canex...you should be able to post simple historical facts to back up your claims ...until you do this (or put forth any evidence at all  Roll Eyes ) you should shut your mouth because you are part of the reason that people think this site does not put forth fair arguments against Islam

    Cheesy Where's your daleel, bruzzer?  You can tell DigDug used to be a Salafi.   (only kidding bro') Tongue
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hijab
     Reply #179 - June 27, 2010, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: ateapotist on June 27, 2010, 09:59 PM
    Cheesy Where's your daleel, bruzzer?  You can tell DigDug used to be a Salafi.   (only kidding bro') Tongue


    lol i see what you did there and yea this is my former salafi mentality for sure.

    But it's still not fair to say something and not provide evidence. Especially when it isnt an "opinion" type thing but just a simple historical fact.

    If you assert that the veil was an arab cultural thing there should surely be some historical evidence. But I honestly looked and I was unable to find anything...only evidence to the contrary.

    So I find it a little frustrating that 3 different people come in here and say that it was cultural despite having no evidence but even spitting in the face of evidence that refutes their point.

    It almost seems as crazy as me saying Muhammad was born in China.
    I'm an asshat.
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