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 Topic: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...

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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #120 - May 27, 2010, 04:10 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 03:11 PM
    Zebedee, the reason your example was incorrect is because the Earth does have an exact age whether we know it or not; whereas the purpose of my post is to demonstrate that there clearly is no such thing as absolute morality - so there is nothing to be closer to or further from.

    Morality is completely objective, it's just that some morals are more successful than others.  The ones where it was okay to kill your children when you were bored tended to be less successful, whereas the ones where you don't kill your own were more successful - but this proves that killing itself is not immoral, because a group which doesn't kill its own yet will kill members of another group during times of limited resources will prevail.


    So how do you know that there is no objective standard with which to measure morality? It seems you've already assumed your conclusion in that regard.

    It seems to me that you're thinking about morality in a purely descriptive and evolutionary way, rather than as it being a complex subject of philosophical inquiry. That is, that morality is something that is shaped only by natural selection and nothing else; an absurd notion.

    If that were the case then we'd be exterminating anyone who didn't measure up to certain standards, or who would likely not survive in a state of nature.

    If morality were founded only on natural selection, then we'd have no way to debate about whether or not, or to what extent, taxation, for example, is justified. Or abortion, or the use of lethal force in certain circumstances.

    Besides, natural selection is a purely descriptive process. To say that morality should be influenced or shaped by it is itself a prescriptive statement. Natural selection is simply the process by which some beings die out, and others continue to exist and propagate. But if you're going to make such a prescriptive statement, then why not make others?

    I don't think that morality is as simple as you make it sound.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #121 - May 27, 2010, 04:26 PM
    @ Abu

    I don't think you're being modest by avoiding my pseudo-invitations to the Exclusive Room. I think you just don't want me to remove the blindfold from your eyes.

    Anyway, I'll be busy for a week or so, and then I'll start a new thread in the Exclusive Rooms, and I'll PM you to alert you. And I'm not like Hassan.... Hassan is already tired of discussing Islam... I'm tired too of discussing Islam, but when it comes to you, it's very exciting because of your unique circumstances.

    Just wait and see my friend, it is me who will finish you off! 
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #122 - May 27, 2010, 04:30 PM
    I got bored of debating Islam a while ago. I come here to chat with like-minded and intelligent people (and BlackDog). Wasted too much time on Islam when I was a Muslim, I want to move on.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #123 - May 27, 2010, 04:34 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 27, 2010, 04:26 PM
    @ Abu

    I don't think you're being modest by avoiding my pseudo-invitations to the Exclusive Room. I think you just don't want me to remove the blindfold from your eyes.

    Anyway, I'll be busy for a week or so, and then I'll start a new thread in the Exclusive Rooms, and I'll PM you to alert you. And I'm not like Hassan.... Hassan is already tired of discussing Islam... I'm tired too of discussing Islam, but when it comes to you, it's very exciting because of your unique circumstances.

    Just wait and see my friend, it is me who will finish you off! 


    Why do you want abuyunis to apostate?
    ...
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #124 - May 27, 2010, 04:39 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 27, 2010, 04:26 PM
    @ Abu

    I don't think you're being modest by avoiding my pseudo-invitations to the Exclusive Room. I think you just don't want me to remove the blindfold from your eyes.

    Anyway, I'll be busy for a week or so, and then I'll start a new thread in the Exclusive Rooms, and I'll PM you to alert you. And I'm not like Hassan.... Hassan is already tired of discussing Islam... I'm tired too of discussing Islam, but when it comes to you, it's very exciting because of your unique circumstances.

    Just wait and see my friend, it is me who will finish you off!  


    hehe you're a funny guy. I already said once before that I'll of course would read anything you have to say - I'll read it word for word - but I can't gurantee that I will enter into a debate or discussion with you - in fact I most likely won't. I think I've done too much of that on here and it's time to stop  Smiley
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #125 - May 27, 2010, 04:47 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on May 27, 2010, 04:10 PM
    So how do you know that there is no objective standard with which to measure morality?


    There is no evidence against which to compare our attempts, so there is no KNOWN objective moral standard; therefore if there is a god with an absolute moral standard we need to be told what it is.  I don't think that's too hard to follow?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #126 - May 27, 2010, 05:07 PM
    @ Abu

    Quote
    hehe you're a funny guy. I already said once before that I'll of course would read anything you have to say - I'll read it word for word - but I can't gurantee that I will enter into a debate or discussion with you - in fact I most likely won't. I think I've done too much of that on here and it's time to stop  

     

    clearly, you're scared shitless Smiley  but without you promising me to discuss what I was planning to write to you, in the Exclusive Rooms, i don't think it's worth the effort... since only by discussion I can break you into admitting your disbelief in the Quran... ok, i'll leave you alone then...  hugs
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #127 - May 27, 2010, 05:11 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on May 27, 2010, 04:34 PM
    Why do you want abuyunis to apostate?


    for purely evil reasons  yes but anyway, he won't discuss with me, so I can't break him  Smiley
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #128 - May 27, 2010, 05:25 PM
    Evil is haram and Allah will punish you for it Debunker. The way you are behaving is proud and arrogant.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #129 - May 27, 2010, 05:28 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 27, 2010, 05:07 PM
    @ Abu
     
    clearly, you're scared shitless Smiley  


    yes i'm pissing my pants  Wink

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #130 - May 27, 2010, 05:53 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 27, 2010, 05:11 PM
    for purely evil reasons  yes but anyway, he won't discuss with me, so I can't break him  Smiley


    I asked you about what you believe is deemed criminal enough to be punished eternally for it. I've kinda lost track of where the thread was so I'll respond here.

    From the page you linked me to, I got the impression that you argue it is 'disbelief', right? Someone who does not believe in Allah will be punished eternally. The problem I have with this is that believing isn't a choice. Forget the free will argument, let's assume it exists. Still it follows that the act of believing, in itself, is not a choice. You cannot choose to believe the keyboard you're typing with doesn't exist, and more than you can choose to believe there is a pink unicorn under your bed. You have to be made to believe. You cannot just say 'okay, I'm going to believe x,y and z.' Belief is forced upon people by their surroundings. So you saying to me that people will be punished incomprehensibly harshly for something they didn't choose to do, is indefensible. (Especially considering the nature of the 'crime', disbelief in a needless God! Is there a less harmful act?!)
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #131 - May 27, 2010, 06:01 PM
    I don't really care about debating. One of the worst part of leaving Islam was the isolation I felt, this place removed it all, it's very comforting to see that there are people like me even though I knew there must be.

    Knowing that if anything was to happen I can come here, where there are good people who will be patient with me, makes me relax.

    So thank you all  far away hug
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #132 - May 27, 2010, 06:03 PM
    Quote from: Aurora on May 27, 2010, 06:01 PM
    I don't really care about debating. One of the worst part of leaving Islam was the isolation I felt, this place removed it all, it's very comforting to see that there are people like me even though I knew there must be.

    Knowing that if anything was to happen I can come here, where there are good people who will be patient with me, makes me relax.

    So thank you all  far away hug


     far away hug  Kiss
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #133 - May 27, 2010, 06:05 PM

    Hey Aurora, you are a winner  Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #134 - May 27, 2010, 06:10 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 06:50 AM
    I just thought about something on the bus today; shouldn't God or whatever provide with tangible proof outside religion? Not assumptions made by us but actual proof? Why is that so hard? Why do we have to answer all the questions, and ask all the questions. It's just a load of assumptions ingrained into belief and somehow is held as truth. In the past making religions and having prophets was a way of life. Try that today! In fact try being a self-help guru and see how that works out, add some supernatural stuff and I say to you good luck friend, I'm sure you'll find a few people to believe you but not for long.

    That I can imagine and feel transcendence is an amazing thing but I can't say anything beyond this point. Why do we have it? I don't know yet. How does it work? Don’t know that either. But can I infer a Being out of this? A supernatural being even :S With metaphysical attributes? Or even a bigger assumption, a religion? People infer all sorts of things to this state. And all of them are baseless unless they have hard evidence.

    I’m getting tired of discussing the finer points of religion but not philosophy or the bigger questions.

    Honestly though I’m here for the people. And to troll Tongue



    I think you are correct on the whole bd, the question that really remains is what to make of the transcendent aspect of reality because as you say it is a fact, it is the tangible evidence that you ask for - however, what does it mean? how far will you go to find out? can you dedicate your entire being to finding it?
    I only ask because as you can tell yourself, the transcendent, the numinous, the mystical in life cannot be grasped half-heartedly, by its very nature it requires you to go beyond intellectual grappling, it cannot be reasonably knwon, it must be known some other way, some further fulfilling way...

    (catches breath)
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #135 - May 27, 2010, 06:12 PM
    That is the cruel irony of life, the objective reality/tangible evidence is understood transiently.

    I don't think you can dedicate your whole life to finding it, it would be another irony of life. Trying to understand it so much you spent little time living life. Unless that for you is living, for me I enjoy other things as well. If I'm lucky, people more intelligent and wise will have some answers in my own life-time, until then I have to accept the fact that there will be things I can't understand and know, that's OK as long as I keep an open mind and at least try to increase my field of knowledge. Hopefully I will have the luck of meeting people that will help me towards enlightenment.

    I guess tangible evidence would be within the frame of what we understand to be tangible evidence. Whatever means we have to understand for example oxygen, the rotation of the moon, a combustion engine etc I can't say what this proof would look like but I know how we would understand it. It would be a part of our reality. And most of us believe in reality, we don't jump of a cliff for we know we can not fly. This is a hard fact. I mean tangible evidence at this level.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #136 - May 27, 2010, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 03:39 PM
    Let us know your thoughts on these 2 questions please

    1) What does your God-given soul and intelligence tell you about eating a ham sandwich?
    2) What is the use for the Quran now?

    Let me know your thoughts on these questions mate. 

    I suppose you are still collecting your own thoughts on these matters, and admittedly the way you look at the Quran is a far more refreshing & robust way of looking at things from a humanitarian perspective.

    But unless you can answer such basic questions competently then I dont think there is much chance for your stance to take off  Cry
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #137 - May 27, 2010, 08:05 PM
    Quote from: z10 on May 27, 2010, 06:10 PM
    the transcendent, the numinous, the mystical in life cannot be grasped half-heartedly, by its very nature it requires you to go beyond intellectual grappling, it cannot be reasonably knwon, it must be known some other way, some further fulfilling way...


    Cue spooky music... Wink

    What is this 'transcendent' and what is the way to knowledge of it? And why must it be so hard to find?

    Has anyone found it?
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #138 - May 27, 2010, 08:28 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 27, 2010, 08:05 PM
    Cue spooky music... Wink

    What is this 'transcendent' and what is the way to knowledge of it? And why must it be so hard to find?

    Has anyone found it?


    You know, the Buddhists say that as long as you search for Enlightenment, you will never find it. Or as that wise hippy Alan Watts put it, trying to find the Self is like trying to bite your own teeth.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #139 - May 27, 2010, 08:32 PM
    Will Buddhists sometimes set themselves on fire so nuff said.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #140 - May 27, 2010, 08:38 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 27, 2010, 08:05 PM
    What is this 'transcendent' and what is the way to knowledge of it? And why must it be so hard to find? Has anyone found it?


    Well, this is the central problem, I think, Hassan. All we know is that it is. Who knows whether it can be found at all?
    I think it is worthwhile trying to do so.


    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 06:12 PM
    That is the cruel irony of life, the objective reality/tangible evidence is understood transiently.

    I don't think you can dedicate your whole life to finding it, it would be another irony of life. Trying to understand it so much you spent little time living life.



    This reminds me of a Zen Koan:-
    ""Before I studied Zen mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers; while I studied Zen mountains were not mountains and rivers were not rivers;  when i finished studying Zen mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers.""

    I suppose the idea is to know that the transcendent is living, just at a higher plane than other pursuits. Or, to put it another way, you are not wasting your life if you search for the truth no matter how stagnating it might feel. After all, as Rumi puts it way better than I ever have,

    "What have you done with your life if you have not loved the absolute?"  Smiley

    As for tangible evidence - I think the only thing that matters is that you know with all your being that something is true. It does not matter how true something might seem intellectually or how much you may want to believe it, but unless you know it, with an absolute certainty that is beyond any dispute, a knowing that can never be doubted there is no use for evidence.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #141 - May 27, 2010, 08:43 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on May 27, 2010, 08:28 PM
    Or as that wise hippy Alan Watts put it, trying to find the Self is like trying to bite your own teeth.

    Like tasting your own tongue I guess
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #142 - May 27, 2010, 08:54 PM
    Quote from: z10 on May 27, 2010, 08:38 PM
    Well, this is the central problem, I think, Hassan. All we know is that it is.

    Do we?  I think we are questioning that.  I for one think its a mental illusion, like the optical illusion of a mirage or the way that some can feel Gods presence.  Seems real to a few, but no substance to it and you'll never find answers to the questions because it simply doesnt exist.  

    Can I ask what it would take for you to see it this way, or why you have ruled it out?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #143 - May 27, 2010, 08:56 PM
    I don't trust that feeling Z10 because I can tell you that a few years ago I believed with all certainty that a girl was as in love with me as I was with her. I felt it, through and through. I was convinced. I believed. I knew. And so I acted on it.

    Well turns out she never had those feelings for me. She liked me a lot, and even thought we had a very special relationship but we were never more than friends.

    Believing something to be true because you want it to be true and simply because you believe it to be true does not make it so.

    The only way that I would know is if she told me. Now that might be a lie but within the realm of truth that she has provided it in deed is true. I might somehow try to prove her love for me; or have it proven (or wait to see it disproven). But that would fall under my premises, such as for example her not cheating on me (she can very likely still be in love with me and cheat on me) or stick around when I'm sick (she can of course do this out of sympathy and loyalty and not love).

    I can ask her if she loves me, and how would she prove it? Or what does loving me mean to her? Or love in general. And then I can gauge if her described behavior (action/words) matches her feelings for me. I can also see if it matches my idea of love but that is besides the point.

    This is the problem with knowing if love is true.

    What I'm talking about is if this world is true and if there is anything outside this world that is true. And as far as I know this world is true and as far as I know there is nothing beyond this world. Now I can be wrong in both cases, that's why I won't state that there is nothing beyond our world and that our world is definitely true (meaning we are not in some computer simulation for example). But I don't base my life around assumptions of things I can't prove, I base my life on things I can prove.

    People will argue everybody does this, for example muslims. The problem is their view on the world often does not match the real world. As far as we know there are no jinns and studying the Quran it's difficult to really think there was a supernatural origin to this book and most importantly where is the God described by this religion?

    Now I knew that she loved me or felt it strongly, when she told me otherwise I could of course imagine that she is deluded. And I can know she is wrong. But what good would that do me? I then knew I had deluded myself when looking through my "evidence" and I noticed it was filled with projection and arbitrary details. The spell was broken and then I could analyze my actions and actual reality rationally on objective and tangible evidence. And I did not find anything that said that she had ever loved me and more importantly I found tangible evidence of the contrary.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #144 - May 27, 2010, 09:00 PM
    I wonder whether the core of it is wanting a romanticised view of this world, rather than cut-throat darwinism.  Me too, but sadly wanting it to be true, doesnt make it true no matter how long you research it.  Occam it instead, and save yourself a heap load of time. 
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #145 - May 27, 2010, 09:02 PM
     
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 08:56 PM
    I don't trust that feeling Z10 because I can tell you that a few years ago I believed with all certainty that a girl was as in love with me as I was with her. I felt it, through and through. I was convinced. I believed. I knew. And so I acted on it.

    Well turns out she never had those feelings for me. She liked me a lot, and even thought we had a very special relationship but we were never more than friends.

    Believing something to be true because you want it to be true and simply because you believe it to be true does not make it so.

    The only way that I would know is if she told me. Now that might be a lie but within the realm of truth that she has provided it in deed is true. I might somehow try to prove her love for me; or have it proven (or wait to see it disproven). But that would fall under my premises, such as for example her not cheating on me (she can very likely still be in love with me and cheat on me) or stick around when I'm sick (she can of course do this out of sympathy and loyalty and not love).

    I can ask her if she loves me, and how would she prove it? Or what does loving me mean to her? Or love in general. And then I can gauge if her described behavior (action/words) matches her feelings for me. I can also see if it matches my idea of love but that is besides the point.

    This is the problem with knowing if love is true.

    What I'm talking about is if this world is true and if there is anything outside this world that is true. And as far as I know this world is true and as far as I know there is nothing beyond this world. Now I can be wrong in both cases, that's why I won't state that there is nothing beyond our world and that our world is definitely true (meaning we are not in some computer simulation for example). But I don't base my life around assumptions of things I can't prove, I base my life on things I can prove.

    People will argue everybody does this, for example muslims. The problem is their view on the world often does not match the real world. As far as we know there are no jinns and studying the Quran it's difficult to really think there was a supernatural origin to this book and most importantly where is the God described by this religion?

    Now I knew that she loved me or felt it strongly, when she told me otherwise I could of course imagine that she is deluded. And I can know she is wrong. But what good would that do me? I then knew I had deluded myself when looking through my "evidence" and I noticed it was filled with projection and arbitrary details. The spell was broken and then I could analyze my actions and actual reality rationally on objective and tangible evidence. And I did not find anything that said that she had ever loved me and more importantly I found tangible evidence of the contrary.


    sad sad sad
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #146 - May 27, 2010, 09:04 PM
    ROFL I swear to Zeus I was gonna write "insert big fat sad smiley here" but I thought no asshole was gonna call me on it. How wrong I was.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #147 - May 27, 2010, 09:05 PM

    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 08:54 PM
    Do we?  I think we are questioning that.  I for one think its a mental illusion, like the optical illusion of a mirage or the way that some can feel Gods presence.  Seems real to a few, but no substance to it and you'll never find answers to the questions because it simply doesnt exist.  

    Can I ask what it would take for you to see it this way, or why you have ruled it out?


    Simply put Islame, I am certain that there is a transcendental element to reality because of consciousness. Subectivity is a transcendent phenomenon. I can elucidate this point if you like but like I said in another thread, we've never really agreed about this before so I'm not sure if you want to. To me, at least, this is an apparent fact about reality but I can see why you have concerns.

    The only way I can accept that there is no transcendent aspect to reality if all of reality can be absolutely known at once in a rational manner. Transcendence is that which is beyond rational understanding and because I think it is impossible to grasp all of reality this way (and by all of reality I mean even the contents of every mind because they also exist just as concretely as anything else) I think transcendence has to be the truth.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #148 - May 27, 2010, 09:06 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:04 PM
    ROFL I swear to Zeus I was gonna write "insert big fat sad smiley here" but I thought no asshole was gonna call me on it. How wrong I was.


    You underestimated the size of my asshole my asshole-ness.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #149 - May 27, 2010, 09:06 PM
     Cheesy Cheesy
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