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 Topic: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...

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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #150 - May 27, 2010, 09:07 PM
    Quote from: z10 on May 27, 2010, 08:38 PM
    All we know is that it is


    I don't know that.

  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #151 - May 27, 2010, 09:08 PM
    Quote from: z10 on May 27, 2010, 09:05 PM
    Simply put Islame, I am certain that there is a transcendental element to reality because of consciousness. Subectivity is a transcendent phenomenon. I can elucidate this point if you like but like I said in another thread, we've never really agreed about this before so I'm not sure if you want to. To me, at least, this is an apparent fact about reality but I can see why you have concerns.

    The only way I can accept that there is no transcendent aspect to reality if all of reality can be absolutely known at once in a rational manner. Transcendence is that which is beyond rational understanding and because I think it is impossible to grasp all of reality this way (and by all of reality I mean even the contents of every mind because they also exist just as concretely as anything else) I think transcendence has to be the truth.


    Is this transcendence supernatural or natural? I'm guessing the latter but I think therein lies the confusion. When you talk about it I mean.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #152 - May 27, 2010, 09:09 PM
    I apologise for putting words in your mouth Hassan. I guess I saw bd talking about transcendence as if he agreed that it is and I got carred away.  Smiley
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #153 - May 27, 2010, 09:11 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:08 PM
    Is this transcendence supernatural or natural? I'm guessing the latter but I think therein lies the confusion. When you talk about it I mean.

    Transcendence is supernatural isnt it?  Otherwise we are simply talking about a natural phenomenon, and transcendence certainly is not within that realm.
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #154 - May 27, 2010, 09:11 PM
    I think it's hard to deny transcendence I mean meditation or looking at a wonderful landscape; that feeling that is created is awe-inspiring. But that's what I mean with this word. I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing Z10?
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #155 - May 27, 2010, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: z10 on May 27, 2010, 09:09 PM
    I apologise for putting words in your mouth Hassan. I guess I saw bd talking about transcendence as if he agreed that it is and I got carred away.  Smiley


    No worries - but what is this transcendent you talk of? Can you define it?
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #156 - May 27, 2010, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:08 PM
    Is this transcendence supernatural or natural? I'm guessing the latter but I think therein lies the confusion. When you talk about it I mean.


    Well, as I understand it, supernatural means beyond the laws of causation and natural means conforming to the laws of causation. The way I see transcendence it is immanent in every causal event. It doesn't break the laws, it makes them.

    And yes, that awe-inspiring feeling you are talking about bd is the centremost aspect of transcendence so we are talking about the same thing (even if it sounds like I am tying myself in mental knots, haha).
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #157 - May 27, 2010, 09:15 PM
    It's the feeling muslims would call fitrah God-knowledge, presence of God. Is there not a word for that in Islam? I thought it was fitrah, but that's more about knowing right and wrong rather knowing that God exists. Which is funny since I am pretty sure I was taught God. And did not come the conclusion on my own. I'm talking like being 6 years and knowing that God is.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #158 - May 27, 2010, 09:24 PM
    Yes, Muslims would say Fitrah means a natural, inbuilt knowledge of God etc...

    But I'm not sure such a thing really exists.

    It seems to me that you are using the word "Transcendent" for feelings, emotions?

    Or the laws that govern the universe?

    Or perhaps you mean the gaps in our knowledge - things we don't understand?

    None of these things are outside our world though - are they?

  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #159 - May 27, 2010, 09:26 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 08:43 PM
    Like tasting your own tongue I guess


    Exactly

    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:15 PM
    It's the feeling muslims would call fitrah God-knowledge, presence of God. Is there not a word for that in Islam? I thought it was fitrah, but that's more about knowing right and wrong rather knowing that God exists. Which is funny since I am pretty sure I was taught God. And did not come the conclusion on my own. I'm talking like being 6 years and knowing that God is.


    Dhikr?
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #160 - May 27, 2010, 09:27 PM
    Children are by nature atheists, that's the fitrah of our Lord Dawkins.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #161 - May 27, 2010, 09:27 PM
    Quote from: z10 on May 27, 2010, 09:05 PM
    The only way I can accept that there is no transcendent aspect to reality if all of reality can be absolutely known at once in a rational manner.

    But do you think this is a fair way of looking at it i.e. that if we dont understand it yet, then what you suppose must be true?  
    Unless we can prove it right away, then transcendence is by default the truth?

    Quote from: z10 on May 27, 2010, 09:13 PM
    And yes, that awe-inspiring feeling you are talking about bd is the centremost aspect of transcendence so we are talking about the same thing

    I dont get it then, what is transcendence, as that to me just sounds like it means being very amazed?

    I realise its hard to define it to somebody who has never experienced it, I guess its like describing sight to a blind man.  

    Kant describes it as being beyond the limits of experience and hence unknowable, which obviously doesnt help  Cheesy
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #162 - May 27, 2010, 09:31 PM
    Hm how the hell do you explain it? It's like being engulfed by something much larger than yourself? I guess it's like being on whatever form of drugs that make you feel this captivating feeling but being fully conscious/self-aware and in control?

    It's not only that per say its the fact that we can experience this that is amazing to me.

    I'm not inferring anything outside it, because anything I infer should be provable on its own. I'm merely saying this state of mind is fascinating by the experience it brings and its existence (as we have defined it).

    It's being outside your own skin basically. Crudely put.

    It's like being captivated by a ray of light shining through a drop of morning dew on a rose petal. Yeah it's basically like being high.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #163 - May 27, 2010, 09:35 PM
    How cool is that. Id love to have some of that, but the closest Ive ever got to the feeling was when I was tripping of ecstacy.  But how I wish I could get there by natural means   Cry
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #164 - May 27, 2010, 09:36 PM
    You have to let your mind go. Venture into the abyss of madness and come back transformed.

    Come
                   back
    saner
             Zanier.
                          It's real

    //cue out with creepy music
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #165 - May 27, 2010, 09:39 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 09:35 PM
    How cool is that. Id love to have some of that, but the closest Ive ever got to the feeling was when I was tripping of ecstacy.  But how I wish I could get there by natural means   Cry


    This is what I felt when I prayed. The presence of God. Or when I did Dhikr of God when seeing something beautiful, it would increase the feeling of transcendence. Sounds like bragging now, me and Allah had something special going on  yes
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #166 - May 27, 2010, 09:39 PM
    Smacks of paradolia to me.  If you want to see supernatural stuff, then you'll see it.  If you want to feel God, then you'll feel him also.  And if you want to see the world in a rational manner, then you'll see it too.

    You choose.
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #167 - May 27, 2010, 09:40 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:31 PM
    Hm how the hell do you explain it? It's like being engulfed by something much larger than yourself? I guess it's like being on whatever form of drugs that make you feel this captivating feeling but being fully conscious/self-aware and in control?

    It's not only that per say its the fact that we can experience this that is amazing to me.

    I'm not inferring anything outside it, because anything I infer should be provable on its own. I'm merely saying this state of mind is fascinating by the experience it brings and its existence (as we have defined it).

    It's being outside your own skin basically. Crudely put.

    It's like being captivated by a ray of light shining through a drop of morning dew on a rose petal. Yeah it's basically like being high.


    But are these things proof of something outside/beyond this world?

    Or are they just the feelings, visions, emotions produced by the brain?
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #168 - May 27, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:39 PM
    This is what I felt when I prayed. The presence of God. Or when I did Dhikr of God when seeing something beautiful, it would increase the feeling of transcendence. Sounds like bragging now, me and Allah had something special going on  yes

    Did you ever make love to Allah, like that for real COEM member a while ago?
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #169 - May 27, 2010, 09:42 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 27, 2010, 09:40 PM
    But are these things proof of something outside/beyond this world?

    Or are they just the feelings, visions, emotions produced by the brain?


    No of course I would never say it is proof of something outside/beyond this world. And since we have proven everything we know so far with natural causes I can not suddenly and go "Yes but this thing, this thing is outside the natural world". Sure I would have to conclude it's a state produced by the brain, I mean it can be produced artificially. But still, the state itself can not be denied. That's all I'm saying.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #170 - May 27, 2010, 09:44 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:42 PM
    Sure I would have to conclude it's a state produced by the brain, I mean it can be produced artificially. But still, the state itself can not be denied. That's all I'm saying.

    Is it like a rush of emotion, like crying & laughing?
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #171 - May 27, 2010, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Did you ever make love to Allah, like that for real COEM member a while ago?


    Grin

    Yeah but his Allah was a woman. Oh man that would be trippy. Hmm.... maybe I should start worshiping a female goddess. And pray nude?

    That kinda reminds of me sexual orgies as devotional prayers. That must have been some good sex, add some shrooms and you'd start believing in anything.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #172 - May 27, 2010, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:39 PM
    This is what I felt when I prayed. The presence of God. Or when I did Dhikr of God when seeing something beautiful, it would increase the feeling of transcendence. Sounds like bragging now, me and Allah had something special going on  yes


    Well I thought I did once - and I still sometimes have a conversation with God.

    I'm just not sure there is anything really there.

    I cannot be sure it's not just my emotions and feelings that are just creating this sense of something beyond.

    Feelings and emotions are so unreliable - they can't possibly lead you to know something for sure.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #173 - May 27, 2010, 09:47 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 09:44 PM
    Is it like a rush of emotion, like crying & laughing?


    It includes crying, tears of joy. It also involved tears of redemption. Like the feeling of being forgiven for the worst sin. I don't ever remember laughing transcendently though.

    It's funny, all this time, unless God actually exists, I have pardoned my own sins.

    I have been my own attorney & persecutor, my own judge & jury. Who was I leaving the execution for?  wacko
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #174 - May 27, 2010, 09:47 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 27, 2010, 09:45 PM
    Well I thought I did once - and I still sometimes have a conversation with God.

    I'm just not sure there is anything really there.

    I cannot be sure it's not just my emotions and feelings that are just creating this sense of something beyond.

    Feelings and emotions are so unreliable - they can't possibly lead you to know something for sure.


    You are like a brother to me now. That's exactly what made me stop praying and start having doubts. I was never sure if there was anything outside me, if I was my own God so to speak.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #175 - May 27, 2010, 09:48 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:42 PM
    No of course I would never say it is proof of something outside/beyond this world. And since we have proven everything we know so far with natural causes I can not suddenly and go "Yes but this thing, this thing is outside the natural world". Sure I would have to conclude it's a state produced by the brain, I mean it can be produced artificially. But still, the state itself can not be denied. That's all I'm saying.


    Sure - and I'm not having a go at you - these questions are to myself also - I'm just using you to sound them out.

    Of course feeling something cannot be denied.

    But whether it has a significance beyond this world seems dubious to me.

    That is adding speculation to a feeling that is real.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #176 - May 27, 2010, 09:50 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:47 PM
    It includes crying, tears of joy. It also involved tears of redemption. Like the feeling of being forgiven for the worst sin. I don't ever remember laughing transcendently though.


    Perhaps thats why some  find it so hard to leave Islam, I guess if I had an experience like this then it would also seriously buckle my 'faith' in agnosticism
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #177 - May 27, 2010, 09:52 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 27, 2010, 09:48 PM
    Sure - and I'm not having a go at you - these questions are to myself also - I'm just using you to sound them out.

    Of course feeling something cannot be denied.

    But whether it has a significance beyond this world seems dubious to me.

    That is adding speculation to a feeling that is real.


    Nono I understand. We are thinking the exact same thing I'd say.

    I can see why you tried hard to believe now Smiley

    And sometimes I wish I had never ventured out here  Cry

    But I always worshiped truth, I used to pray "Give me truth Lord"

    He sure answered that one prayer for me. Thanks  Afro
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #178 - May 27, 2010, 09:53 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 09:50 PM
    Perhaps thats why some  find it so hard to leave Islam, I guess if I had an experience like this then it would also seriously buckle my 'faith' in agnosticism


    Doubtful. You would in the end start wondering if this is a real* feeling or one you have created.

    As in outside the natural world, real beyond the world we can observe. What some would say is the supernatural. I never called it that, sounded too much like superstition and magic. I equaled transience with proof of some sort but of course that's now how it really works, transcendence is proof of transcendence anything else outside it needs to be proven on its own premise.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #179 - May 27, 2010, 09:54 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 27, 2010, 09:47 PM
    You are like a brother to me now. That's exactly what made me stop praying and start having doubts. I was never sure if there was anything outside me, if I was my own God so to speak.


    Indeed - this is how I feel. I can sit in bed at night and look out my window and up to the stars and speak to God I certainly get a tingly feeling of awe and a sense his presence and that he is listening and watching over me. But how do I know this is not just all my projection? I don't.

    The only thing I can know is the tangible stuff. What I see and observe in life and real experiences.

    And they don't reflect well on God - if he does exist.
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