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Theme Changer

 Topic: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said

 (Read 8812 times)
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  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #30 - May 30, 2010, 02:19 PM

    @ Rationalizer

    Could you please send me the Nasa link?

    @ islame

    Quote
    Please show me the source in the hadith.


    I found it in Tafsir Ibn Kathir... it listed many Hadiths, all talking about the miracle of splitting the moon, except one Hadith saying it was a prophecy of a lunar eclipse.

    Quote
    Nevertheless this is what the Quran says about splitting the moon, not it uses the word split as opposed to overshadow:

    (54:1) – “The moon has split and the hour has drawn closer. Then they saw a great miracle; but they turned away and said, “Old magic.” They disbelieved, followed their opinions, and adhered to their old traditions.”

     

    The literal translation is: "...the moon was torn...". If you look at the moon during eclipse, one way to describe it is as if the whole moon or part of the moon was torn out...

    I'll try to look up the Hadith in English.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #31 - May 30, 2010, 02:21 PM

    Should I say the obvious here? That verse is stating something that is totally unnecessary then, with your interpretation Debunker.
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #32 - May 30, 2010, 02:35 PM

    elaborate.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #33 - May 30, 2010, 03:18 PM

    If that verse is pointing to a natural event why is the second half pointing to a supernatural event? The people acted as if this had been a magical event? That  makes no sense. Also, the fact that the moon has split is a sign of Day of Judgment, the Hour has drawn near, saying that and then saying it was just an eclipse, totally natural event doesn't make much sense.
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #34 - May 30, 2010, 03:59 PM

    If I can believe Jesus raised the dead, then why can't I believe Muhammed split the moon? Anyway, the answer is no. I don't believe he performed any miracles AT ALL, simply because, as you said, the Quran in many places said he won't perform miracles.


    NASA:
    http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/JSEX/JSEX-AS.html

    Enter MECCA for the city, and choose 0601-0700 then look for July 23rd 613CE for a 0.934 annular eclipse.

    51:4 definitely talks about this eclipse, but the verse says that the end of the world approached and then the moon (split/tore open/etc).  So Muhammad thought the eclipse was the end of the world.

    I am recreating an old video, it will be a few weeks yet I think, I will give you the link once uploaded.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #35 - May 30, 2010, 04:09 PM

    If that verse is pointing to a natural event why is the second half pointing to a supernatural event? The people acted as if this had been a magical event? That  makes no sense. Also, the fact that the moon has split is a sign of Day of Judgment, the Hour has drawn near, saying that and then saying it was just an eclipse, totally natural event doesn't make much sense.


    Well, you could look at it like this:
    It's not just any eclipse, it's a prophecied eclipse. This event was one of the markers of the Hour drawing near. As for the rest of the verse it says: and if they (pagans) see/witness every sign/clear proof, they'd say that's persistent/potent magic.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #36 - May 30, 2010, 04:10 PM

    @ islame

    I found it in Tafsir Ibn Kathir... it listed many Hadiths, all talking about the miracle of splitting the moon, except one Hadith saying it was a prophecy of a lunar eclipse.
     

    The literal translation is: "...the moon was torn...". If you look at the moon during eclipse, one way to describe it is as if the whole moon or part of the moon was torn out...


    Thankyou  Narcissist

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  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #37 - May 30, 2010, 04:20 PM

    NASA:
    http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/JSEX/JSEX-AS.html

    Enter MECCA for the city, and choose 0601-0700 then look for July 23rd 613CE for a 0.934 annular eclipse.

    54:1 definitely talks about this eclipse, but the verse says that the end of the world approached and then the moon (split/tore open/etc).  So Muhammad thought the eclipse was the end of the world.

    I am recreating an old video, it will be a few weeks yet I think, I will give you the link once uploaded.


    1- Definitely Muhammed/others saw eclipses during their lifetimes before.
    2- The first marker of the extreme closeness of the Hour, according to Quran, is Moses' prophethood.. Yes, the Quran claims that the Hour has become so imminent since the time of Moses.

    So no, Muhammed didn't think a lunar eclipse was an usual special event... the only thing that can be special about it is the prophecy itself.

    Thanks for the link, btw.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #38 - May 30, 2010, 04:23 PM

    DB - That's shirk, that was not an eclipse, its a moon-tearing to you Wink

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  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #39 - May 30, 2010, 04:40 PM

    @ rationalizer

    actually I guess it's:
    617-Nov-04 @ 0.609

    because I read somewhere this event took place 5 years before the flight to Medina (in the year 622) PLUS, a partial eclipse @ ~ 0.5 in magnitude is closer to the description of a moon looking like it's been torn (as opposed to ~0.9).

    You'd be surprised of Hadiths that greatly tone down the grandiose language used to describe the same event reported in other Hadiths...

    For example, the Hadiths of Muhammed riding a horse to heaven are the popular ones as opposed to the far less exciting (and contradicting) Hadiths that say only his soul visited heaven while his body remained behind OR that he only visited heaven in his dreams!

    Of course, Muslims would naturally love to believe the more grandiose version of the same event and that's why we hear of him riding a horse to heaven (instead of only dreaming of it) and him splitting the moon in half (instead of merely prophesying an eclipse!)      

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #40 - May 30, 2010, 04:46 PM

    Yes, in the vid the date seemed to fit the chronology of events.

    Anyway from what I remember Rationalizers original vid actually showed pictures of the type of eclipse it was and would have very much looked like the "moon tearing" to the untrained eye.

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  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #41 - May 30, 2010, 04:48 PM

    I found it in Tafsir Ibn Kathir... it listed many Hadiths, all talking about the miracle of splitting the moon, except one Hadith saying it was a prophecy of a lunar eclipse.

    Given that Hadiths seem to be a plethora of chinese whispers, it seems pretty likely to me that the prophesy Hadith was also distorted.


    For example, the Hadiths of Muhammed riding a horse to heaven are the popular ones as opposed to the far less exciting (and contradicting) Hadiths that say only his soul visited heaven while his body remained behind OR that he only visited heaven in his dreams!

    Of course, Muslims would naturally love to believe the more grandiose version of the same event and that's why we hear of him riding a horse to heaven (instead of only dreaming of it) and him splitting the moon in half (instead of merely prophesying an eclipse!)      

    Very honest debunker, thanks. Afro

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #42 - May 30, 2010, 07:10 PM

    So no, Muhammed didn't think a lunar eclipse was an usual special event... the only thing that can be special about it is the prophecy itself.


    Did this prophecy give a date and a time?  Or was it just "One day there will be another eclipse"?

    You know there are a number of hadiths will describe Muhammad's actions during the eclipse?  How he wept and pleaded with Allah not to end the universe, and then told everyone they should be scared whenever they see an eclipse because he knows how the universe will end.


    because I read somewhere this event took place 5 years before the flight to Medina (in the year 622)


    Do you have a URL where I can read the argument for this date?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #43 - May 30, 2010, 08:59 PM

    @ rationalizer

    Quote
    Did this prophecy give a date and a time?  Or was it just "One day there will be another eclipse"?

    No. I'll translate the Hadith: "the moon was eclipsed and the pagans accused the prophet of sorcery".

    Quote
    You know there are a number of hadiths will describe Muhammad's actions during the eclipse?  How he wept and pleaded with Allah not to end the universe, and then told everyone they should be scared whenever they see an eclipse because he knows how the universe will end.

     
    Really???!!!! Show me the Hadiths then, because the one I know of says that he said: "The sun and the moon are two signs, they don't eclipse for the death or birth of anyone... when there's an eclipse remember God and pray."

    That's it, no weaping and pleading for postponing the end of the world, but like i said show me the Hadiths that support your claims...it would be nice to add them to my collection of weird Hadiths.

    Quote
    Do you have a URL where I can read the argument for this date?

    Sure.
    http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=54&nAya=1

    http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%86%D8%A7_%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF_%D8%B5%D9%84%D9%89_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87_%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%87_%D9%88%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%85/%D9%85%D8%B9%D8%AC%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%AA_%D8%B1%D8%B3%D9%88%D9%84_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #44 - May 30, 2010, 09:54 PM

    Sahih Muslim Bk 4, Number 1966:
    (During an eclipse Muhammad was noted to have said)
    O people of Muhammad, by Allah, if you knew what I know, you would weep much and laugh little.


    Hikayat-e-Sahaba
    The Sun once was in eclipse in the Prophet's time…He wept in his prayers and said:   "O, My Lord! You have said that You would not punish them as long as I am with them and so long as they seek Your forgiveness."  He then addressed the people saying:   "You should hasten for prayer whenever you happen to find the Sun or the Moon in eclipse. If you happen to know the signs of the Last Day as I do. then surely you would weep more and laugh less." 


    Shamaa-il Tirmidhi (307) Hadith Number 3.
    In the time of the Messenger there once occurred a solar eclipse….due to the intense fear he began taking heavy breaths and crying, and began pleading to the Almighty Allah that 'O Allah, it is only You that have promised that when these people seek forgiveness there will be no punishment'.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #45 - May 30, 2010, 10:54 PM

    Quote
    Sahih Muslim Bk 4, Number 1966:
    (During an eclipse Muhammad was noted to have said)
    O people of Muhammad, by Allah, if you knew what I know, you would weep much and laugh little.


    This doesn't say much, so it's useless to me (besides, the comment between brackets means this is NOT a part of the Hadith, only an addition by the translator).  

    Quote
    Hikayat-e-Sahaba
    The Sun once was in eclipse in the Prophet's time…He wept in his prayers and said:   "O, My Lord! You have said that You would not punish them as long as I am with them and so long as they seek Your forgiveness."  He then addressed the people saying:   "You should hasten for prayer whenever you happen to find the Sun or the Moon in eclipse. If you happen to know the signs of the Last Day as I do. then surely you would weep more and laugh less."

      

    This is not even a Hadith...


    Quote
    Shamaa-il Tirmidhi (307) Hadith Number 3.
    In the time of the Messenger there once occurred a solar eclipse….due to the intense fear he began taking heavy breaths and crying, and began pleading to the Almighty Allah that 'O Allah, it is only You that have promised that when these people seek forgiveness there will be no punishment'.

     

    Although laughable, it's not speaking of the end of days, it's speaking of a punishment, like an earthquake or something. Besides, unfortunately, i can only tease my friends using ridiculous Hadiths from Bukhari/Muslim (these are like holy books to them).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #46 - May 30, 2010, 11:02 PM

    Although laughable, it's not speaking of the end of days, it's speaking of a punishment, like an earthquake or something. Besides, unfortunately, i can only tease my friends using ridiculous Hadiths from Bukhari/Muslim (these are like holy books to them).

    Whats your favourite funny hadith?

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  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #47 - May 30, 2010, 11:10 PM

    Quote
    Whats your favourite funny hadith?


    Wow! It's hard to choose really... but I guess Bukhari's Hadith where the prophet said that everyone on earth will perish in 100 years, was very laughable given that when the robot Bukhari added this Hadith to his book, 200 years after the death of the prophet, he should have known it was a lie. Besides, many verses in the Quran say the Hour is known ONLY to God and it comes ONLY suddenly.

    What a clown this Bukhari was.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #48 - May 30, 2010, 11:14 PM

    I thought you'd prob say the satan urinating in peoples ears or farting to drown out the sound of the azan  Cheesy

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  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #49 - May 30, 2010, 11:17 PM

    @ Islame

    The most *painful* email I sent to my friends, for which I received a lot of responses was this one:

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    So? who is the best of prophets?
    [/u]


    Although the Quran does say that God made some prophets on higher levels than other prophets:

    Al-Baqara: 253
    تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ مِنْهُمْ مَنْ كَلَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ وَآَتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ

    still, according to Quran, we, the slaves of God, should not differentiate between the prophets:

    Al-Baqara: 136
    قُولُواْ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

    Al-Baqara: 285
    آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

     Al-Imran: 84
    قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

    _______________________
    And some Sahih Hadiths agree, e.g.

    1- "Don't prefer one prophet to another"
    ‏عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏لا تخيروا بين الأنبياء
    http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=10302

    2- "Don't prefer me to any prophet"
    لا تخيروني من بين الأنبياء
    http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=10303

    _______________________

    Yet another Sahih Hadith disagrees and claims that prophet Muhammed is the best:

    "I'll be the (best?/leader?/master?) of men in the hereafter"
    ‏قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أنا سيد ولد ‏ ‏آدم ‏ ‏يوم القيامة
    http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=5432

    _______________________

    But another Sahih Hadith says it's prophet Abraham:

    "A man came to the prophet and addressed him as the best of men, upon which the prophet replied: that's Abraham! (i.e. Abraham is the best of men, not Muhammed)"
    ‏جاء رجل إلى رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فقال يا خير ‏ ‏البرية ‏ ‏فقال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏ذاك ‏ ‏إبراهيم ‏ ‏عليه السلام
    http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=5615



    So which of these "Sahih" Hadiths should we accept? How about we stick to the clear message in the Quran regarding this?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    This email was the most disturbing one i sent to my Muhammedan (Muhammed worshipping) friends.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #50 - May 30, 2010, 11:18 PM

    I thought you'd prob say the satan urinating in peoples ears or farting to drown out the sound of the azan  Cheesy


    are therse in Bukhari/Muslim? I only use Bukhari/Muslim with them... the idea is to destroy the holiness of these 2 Hadith books.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #51 - May 30, 2010, 11:26 PM

    Yep, you didnt know  Huh?  If you dont have that in your collection then your missing some real gems.

    Here take a look at my vid that I posted in the other thread.  Watch from 1:10 onwards for the best ones, or look up hadiths section in my blog for the actual text..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSfQrMvuGf0

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  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #52 - May 31, 2010, 04:06 AM

    where them hot British Girl with British Accent at?  Cheesy Wink
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #53 - May 31, 2010, 07:54 AM

    This doesn't say much, so it's useless to me (besides, the comment between brackets means this is NOT a part of the Hadith, only an addition by the translator).  


    No, it's a summary of the text that came before it that I added to shorten it.  What else can it mean to say that if you knew what he knew you would weep much and laugh little?  It's obvious this hadith is suggesting that he thought there was something to fear about eclipses.

    Also, sura 54 talks about the end in a past tense, what is your explanation for that?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #54 - June 17, 2011, 07:22 PM

    NASA:
    http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/JSEX/JSEX-AS.html

    Enter MECCA for the city, and choose 0601-0700 then look for July 23rd 613CE for a 0.934 annular eclipse.

    51:4 definitely talks about this eclipse, but the verse says that the end of the world approached and then the moon (split/tore open/etc).  So Muhammad thought the eclipse was the end of the world.

    I am recreating an old video, it will be a few weeks yet I think, I will give you the link once uploaded.

    I am trying to search for this video - do you have a link to it?

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  • Re: What mohammad said vs what "Allah" Said
     Reply #55 - June 18, 2011, 08:36 AM

    It is here
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWLA-MZBhyE&t=290

    (4 min 50s)

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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