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 Topic: The curious case of Miriam and her brother

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  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #150 - May 30, 2010, 12:11 AM
    Is there a verse in the Quran which says that at some point in the careers of every prophet Satan was able to trick them and put in his own words but then God would delete them later?
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #151 - May 30, 2010, 12:28 AM
    no.. if i remember correctly the verse says that Satan also seduces prophets.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #152 - May 30, 2010, 12:59 AM
    Seduces, in what way?
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #153 - May 30, 2010, 01:01 AM
    ok, i'll look up the verse.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #154 - May 30, 2010, 01:03 AM
    Quote from: Winston on May 30, 2010, 12:11 AM
    Is there a verse in the Quran which says that at some point in the careers of every prophet Satan was able to trick them and put in his own words but then God would delete them later?


    [22:52]
    And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet but that when he recited [the scripture] Satan cast into his recitation. Thereat God abrogates, whatever Satan had cast, then God confirms His revelations. And God is Knower, Wise.

    [22:53]
    That He may make what Satan has cast a trial for those in whose hearts is a sickness and those whose hearts are hardened. For truly the evildoers are [steeped] in extreme defiance.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #155 - May 30, 2010, 01:04 AM
    here it is:

    022.052
    YUSUFALI: Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:

    PICKTHAL: Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;

    SHAKIR: And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaitan made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah annuls that which the Shaitan casts, then does Allah establish His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise,
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #156 - May 30, 2010, 01:05 AM
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/022.qmt.html
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #157 - May 30, 2010, 01:06 AM
    By the way, debunker, do you believe that the Satanic Verses incident happened or do you think that these verses refer to something else?
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #158 - May 30, 2010, 01:13 AM
    Debunker,

    If the Quran admits to it's own integrity having been compromised by Satan, how can you be in any way certain that what is left in the Quran is actually God's words?
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #159 - May 30, 2010, 01:16 AM
    @ zebedee.. I just read Pickthal translation, which didn't match the arabic verb (to wish/desire) and then checked Tafsir Al-Jalalayn! Pickthal's translation is based on the shocking Tafsir story..

    when I read these verses I always read them as retelling of 17:73-75.

    Anyway, to answer your question, see 17:73-75.

    17:73-75

    And they almost tempted you to turn away from that which We have revealed to you, that you should forge against Us other than that, and then they would certainly have taken you for a friend.

    And had We not made you firm, you almost inclined to them a little;

    And if you did We would certainly have made you to taste a double punishment in this life and a double punishment after death, then you would not have found any helper against Us.

    That's what I believe happened exactly.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #160 - May 30, 2010, 01:18 AM
    Quote from: Winston on May 30, 2010, 01:13 AM
    Debunker,

    If the Quran admits to it's own integrity having been compromised by Satan, how can you be in any way certain that what is left in the Quran is actually God's words?



    it doesn't... the Tafsir (which is largely dependent on stories in history books and numerous many other sources) claims this integrity was compromised... theTafsir also claims Jesus was God... the Tafsir claims so many fucked up thing.. (see my signature, by the way).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #161 - May 30, 2010, 01:40 AM
    I was only referring to Quran 22:52 and not the tafsir.

    How would you interpret it saying that Satan managed to throw some vain desire into the prophets revelation? Are you saying that this happened to every prohpet before Mohammed, but in Mohammeds case he was only 'almost' tempted by Satan?
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #162 - May 30, 2010, 01:46 AM
    Huh?

    022.052
    YUSUFALI: Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom.

    where does it say that the prophets' *desires* are revelations from God???!!!

    PS. Could you please, Winston, use that scary avatar of yours?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #163 - May 30, 2010, 01:49 AM
    It seems implicitly clear that that is the case, given that Allah has to "cancel" the "desires" in order to "confirm" his "signs".
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #164 - May 30, 2010, 01:50 AM
    the way you read it implies that the *prophets' desires = God's revelations*. And only the Stanic desires are not revelations from God!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #165 - May 30, 2010, 01:55 AM
    anyway, like I said, 17:73-75 explains 22:52

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10503.msg275702#msg275702
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #166 - May 30, 2010, 01:59 AM
    Hehe well being a non-Muslim I do see a strong correlation between Mohammed's desires and what later turns out to be a convenient revelation from God!

    What is your reading of the verse? Are you saying that all prophets became possessed by Satan's spirit and he was able to influence their desires until God stepped in to stop it? How do you know that Mohammed's desires weren't influenced by Satan and he "received" revelation whilst under this influence? The integrity of the Quran is compromised in the same way, whether the revelations are directly being affected or the "desires" of the prophets who recite the revelation are!
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #167 - May 30, 2010, 02:09 AM
    Quote
    Hehe well being a non-Muslim I do see a strong correlation between Mohammed's desires and what later turns out to be a convenient revelation from God!


    yeah, but the point is it is very laughable to think that Muhammed claims *his* desires are God's revelations!
     
    Quote
    What is your reading of the verse? Are you saying that all prophets became possessed by Satan's spirit and he was able to influence their desires until God stepped in to stop it? How do you know that Mohammed's desires weren't influenced by Satan and he "received" revelation whilst under this influence? The integrity of the Quran is compromised in the same way, whether the revelations are directly being affected or the "desires" of the prophets who recite the revelation are!


    I already told you the verse is not clear and can only be clarified in light of 17:73-75...

    PS. could you please use that scary avatar? I miss it!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #168 - May 30, 2010, 03:01 AM
    Quote from: debunker on May 30, 2010, 02:09 AM
    yeah, but the point is it is very laughable to think that Muhammed claims *his* desires are God's revelations!


    I don't find it so laughable considering verses like this:

    33:36 It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

    There's certainly a lot of scope here for Mohammed to claim his desires as God's revelations, and my personal opinion is that he did so quite regularly.


    Quote from: debunker on May 30, 2010, 02:09 AM
    I already told you the verse is not clear and can only be clarified in light of 17:73-75...


    ----------------------022.052
    YUSUFALI: Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom.-----------------------------

    According to this verse all the previous prophets (including or excluding Mohammed?) had, at some point, their "desires" influenced by Satan. Could this mean that these prophets desired something because of Satan and were duped into producing false revelation to attain those desires? The language in the remainder of the verse would suggest so: why else would Allah be 'cancelling' the results of these desires to confirm his own signs (signs=revelations more often than not?).


    ------17:73-75

    And they almost tempted you to turn away from that which We have revealed to you, that you should forge against Us other than that, and then they would certainly have taken you for a friend.

    And had We not made you firm, you almost inclined to them a little;

    And if you did We would certainly have made you to taste a double punishment in this life and a double punishment after death, then you would not have found any helper against Us. ------------------


    Are you saying here that this verse is showing that Mohammed was not subjected to Satan's influence like the other prophets were before him? If so, does the double punishment and damnation part apply to all the previous prohets who did incline towards their enemies at one point or another, due to Satan's influence?


    Quote from: debunker on May 30, 2010, 02:09 AM
    PS. could you please use that scary avatar? I miss it!


    Aye, I'll try to get it.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #169 - May 30, 2010, 03:07 AM
    @ Winston

    Quote
    I don't find it so laughable considering verses like this:

    33:36 It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

    There's certainly a lot of scope here for Mohammed to claim his desires as God's revelations, and my personal opinion is that he did so quite regularly.

     

    Yet, assuming he was an imposter, it would be insanely stupid for him to claim, in the Quran, that his/other prophets' desires are God's revelations!

    As for the rest:
    The verses are saying that Satan did tempt the prophet to change the revelations, but that didn't happen... it almost did.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #170 - May 30, 2010, 03:25 AM
    Quote from: debunker on May 30, 2010, 03:07 AM
    @ Winston

    Yet, assuming he was an imposter, it would be insanely stupid for him to claim, in the Quran, that his/other prophets' desires are God's revelations!


    But that's exactly what 22.52 is suggesting. Assuming he was an imposter, I think the reason this verse is there is because the Satanic Verses incident really happened and he was trying to limit the damage to his reputation amongst his followers by saying "Hey look it happened to all the others prophets before me but it's ok because God straightened it out, you can still trust me".


    Quote from: debunker on May 30, 2010, 03:07 AM
    As for the rest:
    The verses are saying that Satan did tempt the prophet to change the revelations, but that didn't happen... it almost did.


    Yes but it could have almost happened in the sense that it actually did happen but it was because of Satan's trickery and God fixed the problem. I think Mohammed would be trying his best to draw attention away from the issue of his prophetic integrity at this point.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #171 - May 30, 2010, 03:47 AM
    First of all, thank you very much for the avatar! dance

    Now, I know you can only think that he was an imposter, but again, it does NOT help him AT ALL to say his desires are God's revelations! Can't you at least see this?

    Quote
    Yes but it could have almost happened in the sense that it actually did happen but it was because of Satan's trickery and God fixed the problem. I think Mohammed would be trying his best to draw attention away from the issue of his prophetic integrity at this point.

     

    that's only a speculation on your part...
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #172 - May 30, 2010, 04:12 AM
    You're welcome,

    It's not really speculation when you take Tabari's account into consideration. This thing was recorded as a historical event and I wouldn't be as inclined to think of him as an imposter if there weren't so many instances like this which show he was.

    Edit: and yes of course it wouldn't be in his best interest to say that, but at that point he was desperate, I hope you can see that much!
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #173 - May 30, 2010, 04:24 AM
    Tabari's account didn't use the word "desire", it completely changed it and used the word "recite"... but you know, it is truly amazing when you see Tabari/Ibn Ishaq, who were (I believe) true Muslims and yet they reported these weird stories contradicting the Quran they believed in...

    for example, there are verses that say if Muhammed dared fake revelations, God would rip off his heart artery... now they surely believed in this... they also believed in the verses that said he *almost* gave in to temptation, then why the hell do they put stories in their books that actually says that he DID fake part of the revelation and then God changed them back?!

    I mean your position is understandable, but how can those idiots (Tabari/Ibn Ishaq/etc) believe in stories that contradict verses in the Quran? Amazing!


    Quote
    and I wouldn't be as inclined to think of him as an imposter if there weren't so many instances like this which show he was.

     
    so many instances? you mean self-serving instances? even from a neutral point of view, there are less than 10 so-called self-serving instances in the entire Quran... that hardly makes God, Muhammed alter-ego.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #174 - May 30, 2010, 04:35 AM
    Probably because they were historians and they wanted to record Mohammed's history as accurately as possible. The Quran shouldn't be used to filter out historical narratives that contradict it, rather the historical narratives should be compiled in a scholarly way and then compared to the Quran to assess it's reliability.

    The claim that God would kill Mohammed if he falsified revelation is absolutely meaningless if he was an imposter or not when you think about it.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #175 - May 30, 2010, 04:42 AM
    Quote
    Probably because they were historians and they wanted to record Mohammed's history as accurately as possible. The Quran shouldn't be used to filter out historical narratives that contradict it, rather the historical narratives should be compiled in a scholarly way and then compared to the Quran to assess it's reliability.

     

    Apparently, you don't know anything about the *accurate* Islamic history.. the reason Hadith scholars started collecting Hadiths (according to their own standards) is that those historians just collected any story they heard without applying any sort of standards.

    Quote
    The claim that God would kill Mohammed if he falsified revelation is absolutely meaningless if he was an imposter or not when you think about it.

     

    The the point is: Ibn Ishaq et al didn't think he was an imposter.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #176 - May 30, 2010, 04:49 AM
    Ok so what historical criteria was used by mainstream Islamic sects to deny that this whole thing ever happened?
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #177 - May 30, 2010, 06:09 AM
    history books are not religious books... Ibn Hisham/Ibn Ishaq/Tabari/etc are NOT religious books.

    The only religious book is Quran + Sunnis believe Bukhari et al's books are also necessarily and entirely part of the religion. (this is, of course, heretical in my view).

    Sunnis wouldn't hold even Tafsir books to the same level as Hadith. That's the orthodox view.

    EDIT: I was making fun of the old historical books... there are no *accurate* Islamic history books... Hadith books are only an attempt at verifying, if you will, the history of Muhammed's life. In that regard, Hadith books are "authenticated" history books... the authentication of course follows the standards set by the author (or collector) of the Hadith...
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #178 - May 30, 2010, 07:11 AM
    So is your basis for rejecting the authenticity of the satanic verses account based on anything other than faith that Mohammed was a true prophet?
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #179 - May 30, 2010, 07:25 AM
    Quote
    So is your basis for rejecting the authenticity of the satanic verses account based on anything other than faith that Mohammed was a true prophet?


    Yes... It's based on the fact that it contradicts the Quran, which is entirely Mutawatir.

    Now, the *authenticity* of the story of the Satanic verses you find in Tabari/Ibn Ishaq couldn't even stand the lacking standards of ALL the Hadith scholars... and that is precisely why you don't find that story in their books. (Hadith scholars, by the way, judge the authenticity of a historical account *solely* according to the chain of narration... yes, they too didn't care if the historical accounts contradicted the Quran, as long as the chain of narration is according to their standards--while historians didn't even care about the chain of narration).

    Tafsir books, on the other hand, don't restrict themselves to the so-called authenticated historical accounts of Muhammed's life you find in the Hadith books and that's why you see the same stupid story in Tafsir books. Heck, the Tafsir books use ALL sorts of sources, including foreign sources like Greek pseudo-science.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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