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Theme Changer

 Topic: The curious case of Miriam and her brother

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  • The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     OP - May 28, 2010, 04:43 PM

    According to Islam, the Quran may not contain an error, as it is literally the word of God.
    The following two verses raised a number of eye-brows amongst Mohammed’s Christian contemporaries.

    Quote
    Sura 19:27-28
    At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms), they said: "O Mary! Truly a strange thing has thou brought! "O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste!"

     

    Quote
    Sura 66:12
    And Mary the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).


    Imran is the father of Moses and Aaron in the bible. Interestingly Imran also had a daughter mentioned in the bible, by the name of Miriam. Miriam is also the Arabic rendering for “Mary”. Therefore it has long been the contention of medieval Christian writers like, for example, John of Damascus, that Mohammed simply made a rather basic anachronistic mistake and mixed two different Miriams.

     In fact, it’s worse than that, as we shall see.

    Mary could not be the sister of Aaron, or the daughter of Imran (Amran) in the literal sense of the word, as that would mean one of two impossible things: either Mary was about 1400 old when she gave birth to Jesus, or Jesus was a contemporary of Moses and Aaron. This was pointed out to Mohammed in his life time.

    Mohammed’s explanation is recorded in the Hadith:( In Sahih Muslim, no. 5326):

    Quote
    “The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of apostles and pious persons who had gone before them."


    In other words, Mohammed is saying this is a figure of speech. There are indeed one or two examples of such figures of speech in New Testament texts, but they never leave any room for doubt that they really are just a figurative expression (e.g.”Son of David”), and they always used to describe a lineage. (Son/daughter or mother/father, not sister/brother)

    Let’s see if the Quran agrees with Mohammed’s rather hastily produced explanation (or excuse, as some would say…)

    First of all, the Quran has Imran’s wife say this:

    Quote
    Sura 3:35-36
    Behold! wife of Imran said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service ... When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!" ... "... I have named her Mary ..."


    Here we are clearly told that that Imran’s actual wife is referring to Mary, the mother of Jesus, as her physical daughter. (the Quran only knows ONE Miriam) So the Quran itself rules out Mohammed’s explanation.

    Some commentator tried to explain this problem away by saying the word translated as “wife” really means “woman” and could be a descendent. This is extremely unlikely, not to say impossible. “Imraatu Imrana” means “Imran’s wife”, plain and simple. It is certainly refers to a woman Imran “knew” in the biblical sense, i.e. a woman Imran had sexual relations with.  The word for woman in Arabic is NISA, and it is not used here.
       
    There is more evidence in the Quran itself that Mohammed at one point really believed that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a contemporary of Moses:

    In Quran 7,155-157 we read a speech Islamic Moses made to 70 leaders of the Israelites:

    Quote
    And Moses chose from his people seventy men for Our appointment. And when the earthquake seized them, he said: My Lord! If You had willed, You could have destroyed them before and myself (too). Would You destroy us for what the foolish among us have done? This is not except Your trial by which You misguide whom You will and guide whom You will. You are our Guardian, so forgive us and grant us mercy; and You are the best of the forgivers.
    And decree for us in this world good and in the hereafter; indeed, we have turned back to You. He (Allah) said: (As for) My torture, I will strike with it whom I will, and My mercy encompasses everything; so I will decree it for those who fear (Me) and pay Zakat (alms), and those who believe in Our sings.
    Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Taurat and the Injeel, who enjoins them with what is lawful and forbids them what is evil and makes lawful for them the good and prohibits for them the bad and relieves them from their burden and the shackles which were upon them. And those who have believed in him and honoured him and supported him and followed the light which has been sent down with him, it is those who are the successful.


    This text is very interesting… quite apart from Allah being portrayed with all the charms of Vlad the Impaler: “(As for) my torture, I will strike with it whom I will, and My mercy encompasses everything” = “I torture who I want but I am most merciful…”

    The interesting point about Moses’ speech is that Moses “quotes” Allah’s reply to his pleas. Allah mentions the unlettered prophet, Mohammed, which is mentioned in the Torah and the gospels (Injeeel), according to the Quran.  Muslims have searched for 1400 years for these references to Mohammed in biblical texts, and have not found any yet, so most have given up and claim the wicked Jews and Christians have removed them.

    So, back to this scene, we read about Moses addressing the elders, and he repeats Allah’s words to them. Allah mentions the gospels, in a way that presupposes everybody would know all about them. No explanation is given, like “in many years’ time there will be another prophet, and I shall give him something similar to the text Moses mentioned, it will be called the gospels.” It is simply assumed that the 70 elders and Moses himself knew exactly was the gospels were, so it did not NEED explaining.
    So how is it possible that Moses and the elders know the gospels and the Torah?  The Torah was “given” to Moses, according to Islam, to that part is at least within itself consistent, even though the notion that poor old Moses walked around with a book for many years describing his own death probably meant he needed therapy…

    And the gospels, how did Moses know about them? Why is no explanation needed? Why it is obvious Moses knew the gospels? There can be only one logical answer:
    Islamic Jesus behaved exactly like Mohammed: He “received” the gospels, according to Islam, just as Mohammed “received” the Quran, and then Jesus proceeded to show Gospels God handed to him to his good old uncle Moses, also a prophet, and to anyone else who cared to look. In fact, that is what Mohammed had done with the Quran, so the assumption is Jesus would obviously do the same. That is why Islamic Moses can mention the gospels without explaining. Moses’ speech makes Jesus a contemporary of Moses, exactly like his mother’s titles “sister of Aaron” and daughter of Imran” do.

    Imran’s wife’s statement in the Quran makes it clear that Mary is literally her daughter, in the view of the Quran.  Moses knows the gospels “given” to Islamic Jesus, the prophet. This only makes sense if he knows Jesus, too. To the Quran, this does not need explaining, it’s a readily given fact, because Jesus has already been established as Moses’ nephew, through making his mother the sister of Aaron, Moses’ brother.  So the two anachronisms fit together exactly. In its own mixed-up history, the Quran is perfectly consistent. And despite of that, Mohammed has the audacity to come up with his very poor “figure of speech” excuse when his muddle is pointed out to him.

    Therefore, for all these reasons, it is really very obvious that Mohammed’s figure of speech explanation was no more than a hastily produced lie, a very bad one at that, as he forgot to remove the evidence against his lie from his own text, and because of that we can expose his lie 1400 years later without much difficulty. What that says about the Quran as a religious text and the veracity of Mohammed’s claim to be a prophet of God for you to decide.


    To ensure that future embarrassing questions won’t come Mohammed’s way, Allah obliged by providing this for Mohammed very convenient revelation:
    Quote
    Quran 5:101:
    O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Quran is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing[/quote ]

  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #1 - May 28, 2010, 05:35 PM

    The hadith doesn't claim it is a figure of speech.  It claims that there was a man named Imran and that he named his son Aaron and his daughter Miriam.


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #2 - May 28, 2010, 07:45 PM

    Interesting stuff.  I was thinking about this recently. Muslim apologists will, of course, try to find ways around the problem.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #3 - May 28, 2010, 07:46 PM

    Quote
    “The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of apostles and pious persons who had gone before them."


    This is what the hadith says Mohammed replied. I  cannot see Mohammed suupporting your idea... He seems to say that "sister of Aaron" is a sort honourific title...

    Are you trying to say there were TWO women called Miriam, and both just happen to to have a brother called Aaron and a father called Imran?Are we told out that in the quran? Why did Mohammed not come right out with it?

    The bible does not tell us about Mary's parents only that she was connected by marriage to the lineage of Aaron, so the bible also disagrees with the quran...

    So, if the quran meant she somehow is in Aaron's lineage,why is she called sister of Aaron and not "daughter"?

    Also, how DID Moses know about the gospels?



  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #4 - May 28, 2010, 08:09 PM

    I haven't read the whole OP, and I am also completely ignorant of who was te father of who or the brother of who or the uncle tom cobbly of wot!

    But you know that sister and daughter can mean from the family of in a more general sense - similar to the way one says: "Son of such and such a person" meaning a member of that tribe.

    It may well be that there is a mistake here - but I would advise considering all possibilities first.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #5 - May 28, 2010, 08:48 PM

    This is what the hadith says Mohammed replied. I  cannot see Mohammed suupporting your idea... He seems to say that "sister of Aaron" is a sort honourific title...


    He doesn't, he says that people "used to give names after pious people", this means that people would be named after people from the past.  Just like today "Muhammad" is one of the most common names for boys in the UK.

    Are you trying to say there were TWO women called Miriam, and both just happen to to have a brother called Aaron and a father called Imran?Are we told out that in the quran? Why did Mohammed not come right out with it?


    You mean like saying something akin to "People used to give names after pious people"?

    There WERE two Miriams.  The name of the mother of Jesus was Miriam, look it up in Hebrew, it's only the English speakers who found it a bit too confusing to have 2 Miriams that changed her name to Mary.

    So, she was Miriam.  Her father was Imran, and evidently she had a brother named Aaron.  Sure I personally think he screwed up, as did the people of the time, however to have 3 people with the same names as people from the past is not very unlikely at all so you aren't going to convince anyone with your argument.  Zacharia who looked after baby Miriam with his wife asked Allah for a son and was granted his request, I was told that this person became John the Baptist, but I haven't looked into it yet.

    I mean, what are the chances that a man named Imran would have a son named Aaron and a daughter named Miriam?  Oh hang on a sec, Imram at my son's school has a daughter, I think her name is Miriam - I expect he'd call his son Aaron too if not Muhammad; but considering Muhammad wasn't a popular name at the time I expect if he lived before the 7th century he'd have gone with Aaron.

    Do you see where I am going with this?


    The bible does not tell us about Mary's parents only that she was connected by marriage to the lineage of Aaron, so the bible also disagrees with the quran...


    Oh shit, Islam must be wrong then, because the Bible is OBVIOUSLY a credible historical document.


    Also, how DID Moses know about the gospels?


    That's easy to dismiss.  People will just say that the bible was the written word and the gospels the spoken word, just like the Jews had the Torah and the Mishna.

    You think that after 1400 years you can just drop a bombshell and blow up the Islamic belief system? Dream on Cheesy  People have been making our arguments for over 1400 years and Islam is still there, why?  Because (I suspect like yourself) people who are willing to believe in something without any evidence will continue to believe in it despite evidence to the contrary.




    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #6 - May 28, 2010, 09:33 PM

    Asa general rule,we accept the simplest explanations of things unless there is a reason not to... The most obvious explanation is that Mohammed made a mistake and the result was the Miriam anachrononism in the quran.

    We agree that there were two Miriams in biblical texts, but only one in the quran? Is the bible needed to explain the quran? The fact is. the quran only knows one Miriam. Arabs have always used phrases like "daughter of" or "sister of " to uniquely identify a person. Mary is identied as the sister of Aaron and Moses, and this further cemented into the text by making the assumption that Moses knows the gospel, given to his NEPHEW. Mohammed may very well have meant to say that there are 2 Miriams ONCE HE WAS SHOWN THE PROBLEM, the whole point is the quran tells quite a different story.

    Re-defining "gospel" will not work as a way out: the injeel is clearly associated with Jesus. Also, please do not put words into my mouth: I did not say anything about the bible's historicity, and merely pointed out a cleash between the message in the quran and the bible. If you are a historian, and you have two contradicting sources, you generally accept the older one,unless there is a clear reason not to.

    Why do Muslims have a problem looking at this rationally? Simple: To accept this rather obvious fact,or any other of the multitude of errors in the quran, would mean very difficult decisions have to be made.

    Islam survives precisely because Muslims will not look at these kind of things seriously.

    Muslims often nurture their ignorance about Islam to protect themselves from uncomfortable truths.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #7 - May 28, 2010, 09:45 PM


    <insert religion of choice> survives precisely because <insert believer of choice> will not look at these kind of things seriously.

    <insert believer of choice> often nurture their ignorance about <insert religion of choice> to protect themselves from uncomfortable truths.


    Fixed Smiley
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #8 - May 28, 2010, 10:00 PM

    yes

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #9 - May 28, 2010, 10:07 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzERsykxx54


    fuck you
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #10 - May 28, 2010, 11:01 PM

    Quote
    Also, how DID Moses know about the gospels?


    Ok, gilito show me where in the Quran it says Moses knew about the Gospels..

    PS. I can prove to you, using the Quran, that Jesus lived many generations after Moses... no need for the precious Bible.

    What say you? Want me to prove it to you?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #11 - May 28, 2010, 11:02 PM

    Fixed Smiley


     Afro Afro I agree...
    this is quite true for almost all believers in any religion... the thing is what happens when people start looking? I think one of three things:
    1) It's too painful so people make excuses, or blame the messenger
    2) People reject religion and opt for a secular philosophy, often atheism, or agnosticism
    3) People move away from teaching orientated religion to mysticism or meditation.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #12 - May 28, 2010, 11:05 PM

    gilito, it's refreshing to know you're not another evangelical...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #13 - May 28, 2010, 11:16 PM

    Ok, gilito show me where in the Quran it says Moses knew about the Gospels..

    PS. I can prove to you, using the Quran, that Jesus lived many generations after Moses... no need for the precious Bible.

    What say you? Want me to prove it to you?


    quran 7:155-157. I quoted it on the first bit I wrote.

    Moses mentions that Allah told him about Mohammed, and that this unlettered prophet is mentioned in the torah and the gospels. Both is is not right, I don't think, and how was Moses to know what the gospels are? Unless of course he has seen them. It looks to me as if that is what the quran is getting at, as Moses did not need an explanation about the gospels. As the gospels were given to Isa, Moses must have known Isa too. In fact, the quran supports that idea by making Isa'smother Moses's sister.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #14 - May 28, 2010, 11:25 PM

    how laughable!

    the verses switch from Moses as being the speaker, to God...

    anyway, do you want these verses from the Quran I talked about? And do you really think that a man who lived in an area where there was more than one Jew (and some christians) would be so mentally challenged as to think that Judiasm and Christianity were started concurrently? Of course you do!

    And by the way, you also said that the Quran said Maryam was the sister of Moses too... show me the verse... you're either lying or too ignorant.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #15 - May 29, 2010, 02:13 AM

    Yeah Muhammed got Mary and Miriam mixed up with each other, along making other inaccuracies about Christianity and historical inaccuracies. He was either too drunk to know what he was saying or he forgot what he said.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #16 - May 29, 2010, 02:29 AM

    Oh well, I'll go ahead and post the verses anyway.

    First of all: In the Bible, Mary = Miriam = Maryam.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)
    Mary (Aramaic, Hebrew: מרים, Maryām Miriam Arabic:مريم, Maryam),


    Now, by default, what's understood from the verse: Mary had a biological brother whose name was Aaron.

    Now there are many ways to interpret this:

    1- Some might "speculate" or make the connection that this Aaron is Moses' brother. This speculation implies that the Quran made a very laughable mistake. It implies that Jesus lived in the time of Moses (contradicting [1]) and the birth of both Christianity and Judiasm was seperated by only a few years (Moses' sister was older than Moses [2], so Moses could have been only a few years older than Jesus if Moses' sister was indeed Jesus' mother). BTW, also according to the Quran, Moses learned of his prophethood about 10 years after he killed the Egyptian (28:15-30). So in fact, if Mary was Moses' sister, this makes Jesus a prophet probably even before Moses! Because Jesus declared his prophethood, according to the Quran, right after his birth, while Moses was a man when he knew he became a prophet. And Moses' sister was older than him [2], so if she was Mary then it's likely she gave birth to Jesus before his uncle learned of his prophethood! Anyway, there's ample evidence AGAINST such a speculation:

    a- First of all, the proper way to call Mary in this case would be: "O, sister of Moses!" After all, Aaron was a very secondary prophet compared to Moses. In the Quran, Moses is a very primary prophet, so how would it skip/ignore/marginalize Moses and refer to Mary as Aaron's sister?!

    b- According to the Quran, there were many generations between Moses and Jesus [1]. Jesus was discussed independently from Moses. If the author of the Quran thought that Moses was Jesus' uncle, He wouldn't have put many generations between them and there would have seen a lot of mix up in the stories of both prophets. We would have seen Jesus in Moses stories and vice versa. Jesus wouldn't have said that he was sent to change some of the Laws [3], etc.

    c- MOST importantly, according to the Quran, Mary was an orphan and was raised by Zachariah [4]. Moses' sister (whose name was NOT mantioned in the Quran), on the other hand, was NOT an orphan. In fact, her mother later gave birth to Moses and she herself talked to Pharoah's wife to let her mother breast feed her brother Moses.[2]

    So Mary, the orphan raised by Zachariah, is NOT the same girl who talked to Pharoah's wife for the sake of her infant brother, Moses. So Aaron mentioned in the verse cannot be the biological brother of Mary since he was Moses' brother and Moses cannot be Mary's brother as implied by the Quranic verses (most importantly, the fact that she was an orphan).

    _____________________________________________________________

    2- Others might also "speculate" that the name Aaron was NOT exclusive to one person, and it was a common name that was used throughout the history of the Israelites. According to this speculation Aaron just happened to be a "redundant" name given to Mary's biological brother. But Mary was an orphan [4]--> whoever Aaron was, he couldn't have been a "biological" brother.

    This leads to only one possibility:

    _____________________________________________________________

    3- The use of the language in this verse was metaphorical. And this can be interpreted in many ways, for example:

    a- Mary was likened to the piety of Aaron, brother of Moses. But that does NOT make any sense because she would have been best compared to Moses instead.

    b- Mary was likened to the piety of a man named Aaron who lived in her time. And that's what I personally believe... but this is only a speculation but it's one without any evidence against, unlike ALL other speculations mentioned above.

    Bottom line, the speculation that the author of the Quran confused Mary as the sister of Moses is refuted by many verses in the Quran.

    BTW, the word brother/sister can indeed be metaphorically used in the Arabic language to refer to likeness. See for example these verses:

    43:48
    And every token that We showed them was greater than its sister (token), and We grasped them with the torment, that haply they might turn again.
    وَمَا نُرِيهِم مِّنْ آيَةٍ إِلَّا هِيَ أَكْبَرُ مِنْ أُخْتِهَا وَأَخَذْنَاهُم بِالْعَذَابِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ

    7:38
    He saith: Enter into the Fire among nations of the jinn and humankind who passed away before you. Every time a nation entereth, it curseth its sister (nation) till, when they have all been made to follow one another thither, the last of them saith unto the first of them: Our Lord! These led us astray, so give them double torment of the Fire. He saith: For each one there is double (torment), but ye know not.
    قَالَ ادْخُلُواْ فِي أُمَمٍ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِكُم مِّن الْجِنِّ وَالإِنسِ فِي النَّارِ كُلَّمَا دَخَلَتْ أُمَّةٌ لَّعَنَتْ أُخْتَهَا حَتَّى إِذَا ادَّارَكُواْ فِيهَا جَمِيعًا قَالَتْ أُخْرَاهُمْ لأُولاَهُمْ رَبَّنَا هَـؤُلاء أَضَلُّونَا فَآتِهِمْ عَذَابًا ضِعْفًا مِّنَ النَّارِ قَالَ لِكُلٍّ ضِعْفٌ وَلَـكِن لاَّ تَعْلَمُونَ

    _______________________________________________________________________________

    [1] Many generations between Moses and Jesus
    2:87
    We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

    5:44-46
    Surely We revealed the Torah in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to God) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge, because they were required to guard of the Book of God, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what God revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.
    And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what God revealed, those are they that are the unjust.
    And We sent after them in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary verifying what was before him of the Torah and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Torah and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

    [2] Moses is younger than his sister
    28:11-12
    And she said unto his sister: Trace him (Moses). So she observed him from afar, and they perceived not. And We had forbidden foster-mothers for him, so she said: Shall I show you a household who will rear him for you and take care of him?

    20:40
    When thy sister went and said: Shall I show you one who will nurse him? and we restored thee to thy mother that her eyes might be refreshed and might not sorrow. And thou didst kill a man and We delivered thee from great distress, and tried thee with a heavy trial. And thou didst tarry years among the folk of Midian. Then camest thou (hither) by (My) providence, O Moses.  

    [3] Jesus changing some of the laws
    3:50
    And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to God and obey me.

    [4] Mary was an orphan
    3:35-3:37
    When the wife of 'Imran said: My Lord! I have vowed unto Thee that which is in my belly as a consecrated (offering). Accept it from me. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower!
    And when she was delivered she said: My Lord! Lo! I am delivered of a female - God knew best of what she was delivered - the male is not as the female; and lo! I have named her Mary, and lo! I crave Thy protection for her and for her offspring from Satan the outcast.
    And her Lord accepted her with full acceptance and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth; and made Zachariah her guardian. Whenever Zachariah went into the sanctuary where she was, he found that she had food. He said: O Mary! Whence cometh unto thee this (food)? She answered: It is from God. God giveth without stint to whom He will.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #17 - May 29, 2010, 02:34 AM

    Yeah Muhammed got Mary and Miriam mixed up with each other, along making other inaccuracies about Christianity and historical inaccuracies. He was either too drunk to know what he was saying or he forgot what he said.


     Cheesy of course! I mean, when it suits you, he was perfectly capable of stealing AND editing stories from the Bible, but then again, if it helps your desperate lies, he was only a 2 years old retarded toddler who didn't know that Christianity and Judiasm weren't inspired by God at the same time... too bad for you, you lying evangelists, the whole of the Quran exposes your mental retardness! Clearly, according to the Quran, Jesus an Moses lived generations apart!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #18 - May 29, 2010, 02:37 AM

    Afro Afro I agree...
    this is quite true for almost all believers in any religion... the thing is what happens when people start looking? I think one of three things:
    1) It's too painful so people make excuses, or blame the messenger
    2) People reject religion and opt for a secular philosophy, often atheism, or agnosticism
    3) People move away from teaching orientated religion to mysticism or meditation.


    Wrong.

    In my case they realise all religions are all part of the same phenomenon and move onto

    2) People reject religion and opt for a secular philosophy, often atheism, or agnosticism

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  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #19 - May 29, 2010, 02:56 AM

    debunker the Quran states Mary is the daughter of Imran Moses father:

    Sura 3:35-36

    Behold! wife of `Imran said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service ... When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!" ... "... I have named her Mary ..."


    Sura 66:12

    Also Mary, the Amramite. She maintained her chastity, then we blew into her from our spirit. She believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures; she was obedient.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #20 - May 29, 2010, 03:00 AM

    Cheesy of course! I mean, when it suits you, he was perfectly capable of stealing AND editing stories from the Bible, but then again, if it helps your desperate lies, he was only a 2 years old retarded toddler who didn't know that Christianity and Judiasm weren't inspired by God at the same time... too bad for you, you lying evangelists, the whole of the Quran exposes your mental retardness! Clearly, according to the Quran, Jesus an Moses lived generations apart!


     Cheesy

    Yeah and according to the Quran the world is flat.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #21 - May 29, 2010, 03:04 AM

    Its moreso according to the bible.  So tell me what is the shape according the bible?  Oblate?

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  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #22 - May 29, 2010, 03:07 AM

    @ Marie

    I have no problem with translation of 3:35-36

    as for 66:12, it says: MARYAM daughter of 'Imran.

    So still no problem... wait.. .I guess now you'll say that 'Imran in the Quran is Amram (father of Moses) in the Bible?

    No dear, these are two different names and even IF I accept that 'Imran is just the Arabic rendering of Amram, then again, so what? Why is it impossible for some Jew, whose name is Amram to name his daughter MARYAM, after the names of the first Jewish familia sagrada?

    Anyway, if you read the verses in the Quran mentioning Moses' sister, NOT a single one of them gives her name! And as you know, the Quran almost always referred to Jesus' mother by name! So why was she marginalized, without ever mentioing her name when referring to Moses' sister if Muhammed truly thought she was Moses' sister AND Jesus' mother?

    Of course, never mind ALL what I have written in my previous post, clearly showing that the Quran thought of Moses and Jesus as being many generations apart!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #23 - May 29, 2010, 03:10 AM

    Its moreso according to the bible.  So tell me what is the shape according the bible?  Oblate?

    Oh & before you answer this pray tell how old the earth is  thnkyu

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  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #24 - May 29, 2010, 03:19 AM

    Nobody likes my "The Curious Case of Benjamin's Butt" video then?

    fuck you
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #25 - May 29, 2010, 03:20 AM

    Cheesy

    Yeah and according to the Quran the world is flat.


    All what the Quran says is that the earth/ground was made flat for us (as opposed to hilly, for example)... And in any case, even Muhammed was an imposter it is perfectly normal for him to think that the world is flat (as in literally flat)... in fact, it is perfectly normal for him to think that the Earth /ground is literally flat even if he were a prophet of God... but not even a total retard would think Christianity and Judiasm were inspired by the same God at the same time, especially when he lived in a part of the world where Jews and Christians were not completely out of the picture...

    Now, did you know your beloved Biblical Jesus said something that implies the world is literally flat?! I mean if you insist that the Quran says that the world is literally flat, then it's OK, after all, Muhammed is an imposter to you... but when Jesus, who is supposedly God (or at least his Daddy, Yahweh, is God) and yet he implied that the world is flat, now we got a problem, don't you think?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #26 - May 29, 2010, 03:22 AM

    Nobody likes my "The Curious Case of Benjamin's Butt" video then?


    I loved it!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #27 - May 29, 2010, 03:30 AM

    @ Marie

    I have no problem with translation of 3:35-36

    as for 66:12, it says: MARYAM daughter of 'Imran.

    So still no problem... wait.. .I guess now you'll say that 'Imran in the Quran is Amram (father of Moses) in the Bible?

    No dear, these are two different names and even IF I accept that 'Imran is just the Arabic rendering of Amram, then again, so what? Why is it impossible for some Jew, whose name is Amram to name his daughter MARYAM, after the names of the first Jewish familia sagrada?

    Anyway, if you read the verses in the Quran mentioning Moses' sister, NOT a single one of them gives her name! And as you know, the Quran almost always referred to Jesus' mother by name! So why was she marginalized, without ever mentioing her name when referring to Moses' sister if Muhammed truly thought she was Moses' sister AND Jesus' mother?

    Of course, never mind ALL what I have written in my previous post, clearly showing that the Quran thought of Moses and Jesus as being many generations apart!


    If you are trying to say it is just a coincidence the name of Mary's father is Imran well you are mistaken. Imran is not the name of Mary's father.

    debunker you need to make a better argument in order to convince me the Quran did not make a mistake.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #28 - May 29, 2010, 03:40 AM

    Quote
    debunker
    All what the Quran says is that the earth/ground was made flat for us (as opposed to hilly, for example)... And in any case, even Muhammed was an imposter it is perfectly normal for him to think that the world is flat (as in literally flat)... in fact, it is perfectly normal for him to think that the Earth /ground is literally flat even if he were a prophet of God...


    But some Muslim scientists have stated the world is flat according to the Quran.

    Quote
    but not even a total retard would think Christianity and Judiasm were inspired by the same God at the same time, especially when he lived in a part of the world where Jews and Christians were not completely out of the picture...


    This is coming from someone who believes the Bible is corrupt.

    Quote
    Now, did you know your beloved Biblical Jesus said something that implies the world is literally flat?! I mean if you insist that the Quran says that the world is literally flat, then it's OK, after all, Muhammed is an imposter to you... but when Jesus, who is supposedly God (or at least his Daddy, Yahweh, is God) and yet he implied that the world is flat, now we got a problem, don't you think?


    If Jesus stated the world was flat then I would seriously consider leaving Christianity.


  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #29 - May 29, 2010, 03:41 AM

    Debunker and QueenIsabel/Marie, I feel a "love connection" developing...well...that or a "forbidden lust connection" developing. Come on guys, let's have you guys get down with some hot skeptical Muslim on fundamentalist Christian action. I don't blame you guys if you deny it-- after all, the secrecy helps make it so hot.

    fuck you
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