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 Topic: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships

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  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #390 - June 04, 2010, 09:50 PM

    You can have a compromise when you realize that's the only way to survive. That's exactly what I've been saying.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #391 - June 04, 2010, 09:52 PM

    How do you expect people will support the BSD movement if Israel doesn't lose its public image, if the blockade doesn't become a priority cause in people's minds?

    It never will become a priority case in people's mind. Because nobody gives a shit.

    You know what's a a priority cause in people's minds?

    Buying stuff, botox, SUVs, vacation, going-out, ...

    Palestinians and Israelis will have to sort this out on their own. There will have to be a compromise.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #392 - June 04, 2010, 09:54 PM

    And how's that not defeatist?

    How did Apartheid come down if it weren't for people all around the world caring?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #393 - June 04, 2010, 09:55 PM

    You can have a compromise when you realize that's the only way to survive.

    For Israel Palestinian issue is a nuisance. They don't want Hamas targeting Israel with shitty rockets. Unless Palestinians build up militarily which Israel will never allow.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #394 - June 04, 2010, 09:58 PM

    And how's that not defeatist?

    How did Apartheid come down if it weren't for people all around the world caring?

    Do you really believe that?

    Nobody gave a shit about apartheid - as long as it doesn't happen in their backyards people don't give a damn.

    The reason why apartheid came down was because the regime realized that there is more to be gained by change than there is to be gained if nothing changes at all.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #395 - June 04, 2010, 10:37 PM

    Btw, if anyone can answer this, why is it that Israel has to develop new settlements in areas designated for Palestinians? No, really, what is the reason? Distance to Israel cities? Urban sprawl? Economics?

    As to this whole issue of "it was their land" - to me all ownership of land is theft ... I think.

    Interesting articles btw, thanks, it's a nice collation on this thread.  Afro

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#Likud_charter

        * The 1999 Likud charter emphasized the right of settlement in "Judea, Samaria and Azzah" (also known as the "West Bank" and Gaza)," and as such, brings it into direct conflict with Palestinian claims on the same territory. Similarly, their claims of the Jordan River as the permanent eastern border to Israel and Jerusalem  as "the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel," do the same.

        * The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform “flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.” The chapter continued: “The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state.”
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #396 - June 04, 2010, 11:01 PM

    So what if they attacked the soldiers? The argument is that the act of raiding itself was provocative and they were defending themselves. The use of the word "peace" activists is a spin; no one claimed they were pacifists. Nor is there anything wrong with not being a pacifist when faced with violence.

    It wasn't "raiding". It was boarding. There is a difference.   

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #397 - June 05, 2010, 12:06 AM

    It wasn't "raiding". It was boarding. There is a difference.   



    Please Osmanthus! It was boarding? What is the difference beetween raiding and boarding when several innocent people died, even sleeping ones?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #398 - June 05, 2010, 12:14 AM

    There is a big difference if you are legally entitled to board the ship. The ships knew they would be boarded at some point. They chose to be boarded at night. I've never heard of sleeping people being shot either. As far as I know all the ones who got shot were wide awake and involved in the violence. There has been nothing in any of the reports to indicate people were shot while asleep. If you have proof that this happened then post it, otherwise it's just gossip.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #399 - June 05, 2010, 12:24 AM

    There is a big difference if you are legally entitled to board the ship. The ships knew they would be boarded at some point. They chose to be boarded at night. I've never heard of sleeping people being shot either. As far as I know all the ones who got shot were wide awake and involved in the violence. There has been nothing in any of the reports to indicate people were shot while asleep. If you have proof that this happened then post it, otherwise it's just gossip.


    The boat was in international sea, and the israels had no legal grounds to enter the ship.
    And why at night if they had any legality?

    Here in Scanidinavia we have a known swedish writer called Henning Mankell, he was at the boat and have testyfied that they shot at sleeing people. Google Henning Mankell and the story, maybe you will find it in english.! I can give you a swedish link if you want?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #400 - June 05, 2010, 12:29 AM

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/gaza-flotilla-attack-henning-mankell
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #401 - June 05, 2010, 12:35 AM

    The first point is disputed, as has been pointed out before in this thread. Normally, any ship that far out to sea would be in international waters, but international law includes a provision for any country to extend their naval zone up to 68 miles offshore if they perceive themselves to be under a threat. Exactly when you can do this is apparently not rigidly defined. The Israelis did this, and they informed the ships in the flotilla that this was the case. Ergo, the boardings did not necessarily happen in international waters. The exact application of the relevant laws could be argued for years by lawyers from either side, but this is not a clear cut case of illegal boarding in international waters.

    Secondly, the Israelis had a limited period in which they could board the ships. They could not legally do it 100 miles offshore. It had to be done between 68 miles and the coast. The captains of the flotilla ships chose to cross this zone at night. They are the ones who had control over the course and speed of their ships. This is what I meant when I said the people running the flotilla chose to be boarded at night.

    As for "innocent civilians", some of them may have been but on the other hand we have things like this:

    Quote from: wikipedia
    Some supporters of the flotilla announced on 28 March: "A violent response from Israel will breathe new life into the Palestine solidarity movement, drawing attention to the blockade."[72][73]  On 29 May, Aljazeera broadcast footage of some activists on the MV Mavi Marmara participating in a chant invoking battle against Jews.[74][75]

    Prior to the flotilla's launch, some of the activists who would later die during the MV Mavi Marmara clash spoke of dreams of martyrdom. Ali Khaider Benginin told his family before leaving, "I am going to be a shahid; I dreamt I will become a shahid – I saw in a dream that I will be killed."[76] His wife also said that he "constantly prayed to become a martyr."[74] On 3 June, the IDF released footage from a Press TV interview before the raid in which a flotilla passenger says, "With the help of God, I will be a shahid."[77]

    So if you have people that actually want to be killed on this trip there is a good chance they will do something to make sure they get killed, and that may result in other people being killed too.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #402 - June 05, 2010, 12:44 AM


    Read it, and it does not support Marleya's assertion that sleeping people were shot.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #403 - June 05, 2010, 12:45 AM

    I dont think these officers had anything to gain by shooting sleeping people.  It would have have made the exercise more risky and dangerous, as well as caused a lot of grief afterwards.  

    When a news story doesnt agree with common sense, I think its always best to check that its been verified otherwise, like Os stated, you could simply end up basing your opinions on gossip.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #404 - June 05, 2010, 12:46 AM

    Read it, and it does not support Marleya's assertion that sleeping people were shot.

    I haven't read it and I don't believe sleeping people were shot.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #405 - June 05, 2010, 12:48 AM

    It doesn't even make sense.

    1. People slept through that shit?

    2. They boarded the boats without anybody noticing? Sneaked around and shot civilians?

    I need hard verifiable proof before I buy any of that.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #406 - June 05, 2010, 12:59 AM

    Forgive my naivety, but why is this story such a big deal in the media with all the protests. 

    Its just a group of naval officers that boarded a ship with questionable motives and rights, and the situation got out of control.  It may have been heavy-handed but isnt that what we have come to expect from troubled regions?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #407 - June 05, 2010, 01:04 AM

    I can not do anything and put a link from a swedish newspaper, that show where I took it from. Henning Mankell is telling in this article, that sleeping people were shoot.

    http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7226632.ab 
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #408 - June 05, 2010, 01:05 AM

    Umm, yeah. This is what I don't get. Thing is if it had happened anywhere else in the world nobody would give a fuck. It's only because it involves Israel and Palestine that anyone is even interested.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #409 - June 05, 2010, 01:10 AM

    Marley in that link does he say how they were shot? Because in the Guardian article he says:

    "We saw these black rubber boats coming with masked commando soldiers … they climbed aboard. They were very aggressive … there was an older man in the crew, he was perhaps a little slow and they shot him in the arm with an electric gun which is very, very painful … they shot another man with rubber bullets."

    Why would he leave out the cold blooded murder in this interview? Why would Guardian leave out the cold blooded murder in their article.

    I think you need to say how they were shot, what they were shot with, did they die, what kind of injuries did they suffer from. And provide a link that corroborates all of the above.

    And please note I'm not excusing it or taking sides or anything. I'm discussing that specific argument with you Smiley
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #410 - June 05, 2010, 01:16 AM

    Sorry one more thing, in that link, is the source from there, or are they quoting from another source? And if so, what is the other source (the original) and have you read it?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #411 - June 05, 2010, 01:17 AM

    Umm, yeah. This is what I don't get. Thing is if it had happened anywhere else in the world nobody would give a fuck. It's only because it involves Israel and Palestine that anyone is even interested.



    A humanitarian ship with food going to a starved nation, that is attacked by heavy millitary, would be news anywhere it happened and beacause of the list of people that attended the ship.

    Jounalists, politicians, humanitarian workers, from all over europa participated.

    The new humantarian boat on its way to Gaza, even have a Nobel peace price winner on and the boat is named after the young american woman that was bulldozed down in front of a palestinian house some years ago, Rachel Corrie.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #412 - June 05, 2010, 01:25 AM

    A humanitarian ship with food going to a starved nation, that is attacked by heavy millitary, would be news anywhere it happened and beacause of the list of people that attended the ship.

    Jounalists, politicians, humanitarian workers, from all over europa participated.

    The new humantarian boat on its way to Gaza, even have a Nobel peace price winner on and the boat is named after the young american woman that was bulldozed down in front of a palestinian house some years ago, Rachel Corrie.

    See, there you go again. A "heavy military attack" wouldn't have left anything except wreckage. This was a boarding operation, not a heavy military attack. And yes, it would be news but what I'm getting at is that it would be news that most people wouldn't care about. This is not to say that they shouldn't care about it, just that they wouldn't. Not to anywhere near the same extent. 

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #413 - June 05, 2010, 01:27 AM

    Marley in that link does he say how they were shot? Because in the Guardian article he says:

    "We saw these black rubber boats coming with masked commando soldiers … they climbed aboard. They were very aggressive … there was an older man in the crew, he was perhaps a little slow and they shot him in the arm with an electric gun which is very, very painful … they shot another man with rubber bullets."

    Why would he leave out the cold blooded murder in this interview? Why would Guardian leave out the cold blooded murder in their article.

    I think you need to say how they were shot, what they were shot with, did they die, what kind of injuries did they suffer from. And provide a link that corroborates all of the above.

    And please note I'm not excusing it or taking sides or anything. I'm discussing that specific argument with you Smiley


    The newspaper is the original article and HM is qouted:
    "We were attacted by helicopters,speedboats, other boats and a lot of commandosoldiers,that enters boat after boat.They shoot people that are sleeping.No matter how much the israelis say there was weapon on the ship, it is not true"
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #414 - June 05, 2010, 01:32 AM

    Ok, so how many other witnesses are saying that sleeping people were shot? I've read a lot of reports and this is the first time I have heard that accusation.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #415 - June 05, 2010, 03:16 AM

    @osmanthus: The whole legality issue isn't as relevant as people make it out to be. Morality should form legality, not the other way round. Even if boarding the ships were legal, so what? Slavery was legal, so was the Holocaust, so was Apartheid, so were many other things we consider to be crimes today. The law isn't perfect; it evolves to be more moral with time.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #416 - June 05, 2010, 07:11 AM

    The reason I'm mentioning it is because people have been screaming that the boarding was an illegal act of piracy, which seems to me to be totally inaccurate. This incident itself is, in my opinion, being blown out of all proportion. People seem to be just seizing on any pretext to rant about it. It's been called a military attack, when if it had been done by anyone else it would have been regarded as a routine border policing action. It's been claimed that boarding at night was somehow reprehensible, when the skippers of the flotilla chose to run the blockade at night and must have known they would be boarded at some point. It's been called piracy when there is no evidence of anything  of the sort. It's been called illegal when there is no certainty of that either. It's been called deliberate murder of innocent civilians when you have wannabe shahids on board and everyone knows it. The list goes on. 

    Note that this is a separate issue to the details of the blockade itself. If you want to knock the Israelis for the arbitrariness and changeability of their permitted and banned items in the blockade then that's fair enough. That's where the morality of it comes in IMO.

    The boarding just turned out to be an unfortunate cock-up, and that is the fault of idiots on both sides.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #417 - June 05, 2010, 07:12 AM

    @osmanthus: The whole legality issue isn't as relevant as people make it out to be. Morality should form legality, not the other way round. Even if boarding the ships were legal, so what? Slavery was legal, so was the Holocaust, so was Apartheid, so were many other things we consider to be crimes today. The law isn't perfect; it evolves to be more moral with time.

    Oh and one other detail: the Holocaust and apartheid were not legal under international law at the time. The claim is being made that boarding the flotilla ships was illegal under international law.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #418 - June 05, 2010, 10:02 AM


    A humanitarian ship with food going to a starved nation, that is attacked by heavy millitary, would be news anywhere it happened and beacause of the list of people that attended the ship.

    Jounalists, politicians, humanitarian workers, from all over europa participated.

    The new humantarian boat on its way to Gaza, even have a Nobel peace price winner on and the boat is named after the young american woman that was bulldozed down in front of a palestinian house some years ago, Rachel Corrie.

    Bolded by me

    Haven´t you read the thread ? There is no food shortage in the Gaza strip.

    See this report posted by me June 04, 2010, 01:38:58  :

    Quote
    Wednesday, 2nd June 2010, at. 12:01 /

    the situation in Gaza: the problem is lack of work rather than lack of food
     
    GAZA (01/06/2010): To judge from  some media, the situation in Gaza is desperate, everything is about to collapse, the community is on the brink of disaster or at the level of the third world.

    Israel's closure of the border with the Gaza Strip has been going on for three years. Since the Palestinian coalition government collapsed, and Hamas during the ensuing civil war threw Fatah out. Since then the Palestinian community's immediate collaps has been prophesied numerous times in the media. We hear sometimes, that the Palestinians have nothing to eat. The UN must from time to time to stop food distribution, either because their stocks are running low, or because they cannot get diesel for their trucks and therefore cannot deliver the food and so on.

    Yesterday I drove into the Gaza Strip. I no longer do so as often as before, because while it   once was just a quick flying visit by car going in in the morning and out again late afternoon,  it is now so slow a process that when I finally go down here, I usually stay about a week. It is also a regular occurrence, that the Israelis close the Gaza Strip to foreign journalists, so if you happen to be there  you are unable to get out for some days or weeks, which is why I don´t go there as often as I used to.

    This time, I had expected to see real suffering, because with all the fuss in recent days to bring some tons of humanitarian relief in - so much so that people actually sacrificed their lives for it – there had to be a really desperate situation in the Gaza Strip. No food. Long queues in front of the UN food stocks. Hungry children with food bowls. But that was not the picture that greeted me.

    When yesterday morning I drove through Gaza City, I was immediately surprised that there was almost as many traffic jams, as there always has been. Is there not a shortage of fuel? Apparently not. They are using it with abandon. Gasoline is not even rationed.

    Many shops were closed yesterday, Hamas has declared a general strike in protest against Israel's brutal and deadly attack on the Turkish flotilla with pro-Palestinian activists on board. So it was difficult to estimate how many products were on the shelves. I therefore went to the  Shati refugee camp, also known as Beach Camp, which has become entirely surrounded by Gaza City and immersed in it. Here is one of Gaza's many vegetable markets that sell much more than just fruits and vegetables.

    I cannot say whether, in better times, there has been a larger range of product on sale than there was yesterday. But there was certainly no shortage of vegetables, fruits or any other ordinary, basic foods. Tomatoes, cucumbers, corn, watermelons, potatoes - mountains of them at the many stalls.

    I must admit I was a little surprised, because when I call my Palestinian friends down here, they tell me about all the problems and shortages, so I expected that the crisis was a little more obvious.

    And the first woman we interviewed in the market confirmed this strange, contradictory, negative outlook:
    "We have nothing," she said. We need everything! Food, beverages ... everything! "
    She was not the least bothered by the fact, that she stood between mountains of vegetables, fruit, eggs, poultry and fish, while she uttered this doomsday prophecy.
    Another woman, Rifka Abu Nahal, who originally comes from  the rural area was more in touch with reality. She says that a really crucial problem is over consumption of water, which makes the water table sink. This means that the Mediterranean's salt water penetrates into and contaminate the groundwater, which already has become too salty. This makes it both unpleasant to drink, and ultimately it will destroy the farmland.
    She goes on to say that it is the bad economy that is the biggest problem.
    "There is a high unemployment rate.. This means that many people have no income, but must live on charity from their relatives. So they cannot afford to buy the available goods. They can stand and look at the meat, but they cannot buy it, "she explains.

    What probably will surprise many is, that only vegetables are grown here in the Gaza Strip. And with the exception of watermelon all the fruits come from none other than ... Israel!
    Yousuf al-Assad Yazgy owns a fruit and vegetable stall here in the market. All his fruit is imported from Israel.

    "It's not all fruit and vegetables that come from Israel. Ours do. Not much fruit is grown in the Gaza Strip. Mostly  tomatoes, potatoes and vegetables are grown. So in my stall the vegetables and watermelon are from Gaza. All the fruit comes from across the border from Israel, "he explains, but he says that there may be long periods when the border is closed, and no fruit comes in.

    Another supply route is the tunnels down in the southern part of the Gaza Strip under the border with Egypt. A very large proportion of goods in the grocery stores here in Gaza come from Egypt and are smuggled in.

    On the way out of the Shati camp we stop at a small grocery store sales. Nothing fancy, just a small, humble local shop. The proprietor´s son, Mohammed Abu Nada, who is minding the shop, says that they would not be able to do business if it were not for contraband goods from Egypt.

    He takes us on a brief tour of the shelves and points out everything that comes from Egypt. It turns out to be much more than half of the goods. I would estimate 75-80 per cent. Several other products - including long-life UHT milk - comes from Israel, but has also been smuggled through tunnels from Egypt.

    The detour via the Sinai desert and the tunnels do not, of course, make the goods cheaper, which Mohammed Abu Nada is well aware of.

    The products are more expensive, he says. Many people cannot afford to buy them, or can only buy certain things sometimes. But still, that even such a small, poor-looking grocery store on the outskirts of a refugee camp has so many relatively expensive smuggled goods on the shelves, nevertheless shows that some customers at least can afford to buy them. Otherwise, the shopowner would of course not invest in them.

     I have not written this story to postulate that there are no problems in the Gaza Strip, because that would be untrue. There are problems. Many problems indeed. But it is not lack of food, which primarily concern people down here. The biggest problem is the lack of jobs and a sustainable domestic economy.

    There is a shortage of building materials, cement and everything within the construction industry. This lack, however, has sparked a whole new industry. Poor Palestinians dig through the many empty lots and the ruins of destroyed houses and factory buildings which the war has left. Here are all kinds of things that can be reused. Even many of the stones and the concrete can be utilized.

    But a genuine Palestinian economic development, as their brethren in the West Bank currently enjoy with help from the West, would do much to improve the situation in the Gaza Strip. And this economic development must come from within. There will never again be a situation where up to 150,000 workers from the Gaza Strip can work in Israel  and bring money back to help the local economy. (Something Israel was actually also criticized for). The wave of terrorism and suicide bombings in the 90s and beginning of 2000 put and end to that.

    But to get such an economic development, with help from the West, going it will require Israeli cooperation. And it also means that the Hamas government must soften its total and unflinching refusal to negotiate with Israel or even recognize its right to exist. And you actually feel  that - although there is a very long way to go – there are tendencies in some circles of Hamas, to show greater flexibility.

    To cultivate this wing of the Islamists, it is probably also necessary that we in the West soften our attitude of total rejection of Hamas. Even our own Danish diplomats in the region have, in common with other EU diplomats, had no contacts with Hamas. A dialogue is necessary.

    Unless there is some sort of defusing of the situation, the danger is, that the more militant and fanatical jihadist groups that are already emerging in the Gaza Strip, begin to challenge Hamas and force the organization to abandon all possibilities of political compromises, and instead protect its Islamist credentials.




    http://blog.tv2.dk/steffen-jensen.tv2/

    As to Steffen Jensen´s claim that food shortage is the least of the Gazans problems seem to be substantiated by the this survey by the Economist :



    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #419 - June 05, 2010, 10:28 AM

    The boat was in international sea, and the israels had no legal grounds to enter the ship.
    And why at night if they had any legality?

    Here in Scanidinavia we have a known swedish writer called Henning Mankell, he was at the boat and have testyfied that they shot at sleeing people. Google Henning Mankell and the story, maybe you will find it in english.! I can give you a swedish link if you want?


    They were not awakened by the helicopter hanging over the ship ? Shame on Aftonbladet for repeating such nonsens and Henning Mankell is not exactly an eye witness, he wasn´t even on the Mava Marmara, which was about a kilometer behind the ship he was on

    Quote
    "I think the Israeli military went out to commit murder," Mankell said


    They were going to murder them with Paint Balls, rubber bullets and electric guns ? Yeah right.

    Quote
    Mankell :they climbed aboard. They were very aggressive … there was an older man in the crew, he was perhaps a little slow and they shot him in the arm with an electric gun which is very, very painful … they shot another man with rubber bullets."

    Bolded by me

    Yes and so is being beaten with iron rods - it may easily kill you

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
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