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 Topic: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships

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  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #480 - June 06, 2010, 12:55 AM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 06, 2010, 12:10 AM

    I'm fully aware of Yisrael Beiteinu, Shas and the types of Avidgor Lieberman and Ovadia Yosef.


    Not saying you weren't

    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist
    But overall the Israeli political discourse is much more civilized. With all its flaws, Israel is a pluralistic tolerant multinational state.


    Erm that's difficult to judge. A significant section of Palestinian society is secular and civilised, and voted for Fatah who wanted peace, albeit not the majority. But neither did the majority of Israelis vote for peace, instead opting for Likud, Kadima, Yisrael Beiteinu, Shas.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #481 - June 06, 2010, 01:23 AM
    Quote from: MrSilly on June 06, 2010, 12:49 AM
    Are you refering to in the world in general, or Israel/Palestine specifically?

    If you mean the former, then does the fact that lots of people have been raped in the past increase the legitimacy of rape today.

    If you mean the latter, then events occuring post event should not change the legitimacy of the first event in question.

    Let's not get too vague and abstract.

    Like I said before I don't think Israel should've been established in the way it was.  I would've preferred a bi-national state. But now that's considered utopia.
    So the next best solution is the two-state solution. Which requires Israel to withdraw to '67 borders including letting go of east Jerusalem and to recognize the right of return to Palestinian refugees or at least offer compensation. And requires Hamas and Fatah as well as the major Arab States to recognize Israel's sovereignty and right to exist peacefully.


    Quote from: MrSilly on June 06, 2010, 12:55 AM
    Erm that's difficult to judge. A significant section of Palestinian society is secular and civilised, and voted for Fatah who wanted peace, albeit not the majority. But neither did the majority of Israelis vote for peace, instead opting for Likud, Kadima, Yisrael Beiteinu, Shas.

    Kadima is not so bad. Fatah's constitution says its aim is the "complete liberation of Palestine". 
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #482 - June 06, 2010, 03:23 AM
    Video of IDF attacking before entering vessel: http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150183840175277

    Watch till the end.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #483 - June 06, 2010, 04:30 AM
    Do you mean the tear gas and the stun grenades?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #484 - June 06, 2010, 04:40 AM
    I mean everything.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #485 - June 06, 2010, 12:08 PM
    @marleya

    Cock and Bull

    "Hamas" founded by "Muslim Brotherhood" the conflict between Jews and Muslims began in 1920. led by Mohammad Amin al-Husayni appointed by the British. to be the next mufti of Jerusalem as replacement to his dead half brother. he was also in his earlier years of the officers who led the Armenian genocide. later he allied with Nazi regime. there he became close friend of Hitler. he was very vocal about total annihilation of the Jews. he even quoted a verse from Koran with a twist. "kill the Jews wherever you find them" that was his motto. with the establishing NazIIslamic army, he aided the Nazis in search and murder of every Jew they could track. they also massacred Serbs along the way. he is also was the uncle of yasser Arafat.

  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #486 - June 06, 2010, 12:10 PM
    ...and yet the Israelis supported Hamas for years as a means to weaken Fatah/PLO.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #487 - June 06, 2010, 12:24 PM
    according to which source? hamas was clear from the beginning for what purpose it exist.

  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #488 - June 06, 2010, 12:25 PM

    Dispatch: Just how hungry is Gaza?

    Logistically difficult of an issue for the Israeli it might be and very easy to say, I think Israel should be concentrating on the tunnels connected to Egypt and at least allow chocolates & pasta through the bloackade. Looks like even Netanyahu is thinking about easing the blockade.
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #489 - June 06, 2010, 12:38 PM
    Quote from: ygalg on June 06, 2010, 12:24 PM
    according to which source? hamas was clear from the beginning for what purpose it exist.

    Plenty:

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2006/01/27/hamas-son-of-israel/
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SZA204A.html
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

    ...and many more.

     whistling2
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #490 - June 06, 2010, 02:35 PM
    I concur, Israel acted with passivity toward hamas vs PLO. PLO suspected hamas aided by israel. which is implausible scenario consider the nature of hamas.
    they have received support however from Jordan. Jordan was interesting to set it's influence in the territories.

  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #491 - June 06, 2010, 03:41 PM
    Quote
    Students plan counter-flotilla

    Flotilla organized to aid Turkey's oppressed Kurds, Armenians; show up world's hypocrisy after sharp criticism of Israel's raid on Gaza flotilla
    Yaheli Moran Zelikovich

    Israeli students are planning a
    Quote
    "peace flotilla"

     to Turkey with humanitarian aid for nations who suffered under Turkish imperialism – the Kurds and Armenians. The initiative comes in response to the world's sharp criticism of Israel's lethal raid on the Gaza flotilla which left nine activists dead and many wounded.
     
    The organizers are currently seeking a suitable vessel and trying to recruit other students to the cause. No date has yet been set, but a skipper has been found: Arik Ofir, a member of the navy veteran's union and owner of a private business. They have also obtained medical supplies, and hope that by the end of the week they will be able to set out.

    Quote
    "The whole world saw the flotilla and thought Israel is a terrible state, which comes to shoot people who call themselves peace activists,"

     said Chairman of the National Students Union Boaz Torporovsky, who is also involved.
    Quote
    "It's absurd that they always put the Israeli occupation in the headlines and don't talk about extreme Islamic terror. There's a lot of hypocrisy in the world.

     
     
    Quote
    "Turkey, which leads the campaign against Israel and makes all sorts of threats is the same Turkey that carried out a holocaust and murdered an entire nation of Armenians, and oppresses a minority larger than the Palestinians – the Kurds – who deserve a state, who have demanded a state for longer than the State of Israel has existed."


    Quote
    "For this reason,"

     he continued,
    Quote
    "we have decided to help that minority and show up the hypocrisy of the Turkish government. We are sure that they won't care if we sent humanitarian aid. It'll be a peace flotilla without the knives or stones that hurt IDF soldiers, without violence, which is intended for all those oppressed by the Turkish government.

     
     
    Quote
    "If (Prime Minister Recep Tayyip) Erdogan's heart is where his mouth is, which we all know isn't so, he has no reason to prevent the flotilla from arriving."

     
     
    And what about the practicalities?
    Quote
    "For the flotilla to work, we need three elements: Money, logistics and balls,"

     he said.
    Quote
    "We're bringing the balls and some of the logistics, but we need lots of money."

     
     
    The National Student Union has been active in PR for a long time. Torporovsky even infiltrated into a UN conference once, and slammed Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an incident which received extensive coverage around the world.
     
    Student representatives even got in contact with Iranian students oppressed by the regime in an attempt to raise awareness about what is happening in Iran.

    ynet
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #492 - June 06, 2010, 03:48 PM
    Quote from: ygalg on June 06, 2010, 02:35 PM
    I concur, Israel acted with passivity toward hamas vs PLO. PLO suspected hamas aided by israel. which is implausible scenario consider the nature of hamas.
    they have received support however from Jordan. Jordan was interesting to set it's influence in the territories.

    Why do you act surprised? Israel also provided significant support to Iran during the Iran-Iraq war despite the official Iranian stance of 'liberating al-Quds' and anti-Israel rhetoric/activities post-1979.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Iran_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war

    To say that Israel did not take part in the Hamas-PLO conflict is an over-simplification when they had a keen interest in supporting factions that would weaken the PLO hold (which it did). If they were really frightened of Hamas, one would assume they would actually cooperate to an extent with PLO in stopping the Muslim Brotherhood from influencing the Palestinians.

    'The enemy of my enemy is my friend' gone (horribly) bad. It has happened before: American support (and abandonment) of Mujahideen in Afghanistan eventually evolved into 9/11. The rest is history.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #493 - June 06, 2010, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: ygalg on June 06, 2010, 02:35 PM
    I concur, Israel acted with passivity toward hamas vs PLO. PLO suspected hamas aided by israel. ........


    The problem is neither with names like Hamas, or PLO., if you attack one organizations These Islamic Robots will come with other names .. there are so many Arabic words for fighting..

    Al-Aqsa ...Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade...Al-Badr....Al Ghurabaa..al-Qa'ida...Al Ittihad Al Islamia..Ansar al-Islam...Egyptian Islamic Jihad..Fatah al-Islam...Flag of Jihad.svg    Harakat-ul-Jihad-ul-Islami...Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin..Jamiat ul-Ansar...so on and on..


    All these Islamic baboons are based on Quran/hadith/Sunnah.. So just going at PLO or Hamas is no use.. You got to hit the roots..  And the tree roots are in Muhammad's Quran/Suunah/hadith..

    Rest is just  a Muslim game..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #494 - June 06, 2010, 06:19 PM
    Another blunder by Israel  015

    Israeli government office links to video mocking flotilla

    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/05/gaza.flotilla.mock.video/index.html


    Quote
    Jerusalem (CNN) -- The Israeli government's press division is apologizing for circulating a link to a video that mocks activists aboard a ship headed to Gaza earlier this week that was blocked by an Israeli raid.

    "Due to a misunderstanding on our part, earlier (Friday) we inadvertently issued a video link that had been sent for our perusal," according to a statement from Israel's Government Press Office, which distributed the link to media outlets.

    "It was not intended for general release," the statement said. "The contents of the video in no way represent the official policy of either the Government Press Office or of the State of Israel."

    The video, titled "We Con the World" -- set to the tune of the 1985 hit, "We are the World"-- was put together by Caroline Glick, a former member of the Israel Defense Forces and columnist for the Jerusalem Post.

    In the video, up to a dozen members of the so-called "Flotilla Choir" -- some wearing a variation of traditional Arab dress -- sing satirical verses, such as: "There's no people dying, so the best that we can do is create the biggest bluff of all."

    On her blog, Glick, who briefly appears in the video, says, "We produced a clip in English. There we feature the Turkish-Hamas 'love boat' captain, crew and passengers in a musical explanation of how they con the world."

    "We think this is an important Israeli contribution to the discussion of recent events and we hope you distribute it far and wide," she adds.

    Nine Turkish citizens were killed Monday after violence erupted on one of six ships in a flotilla carrying humanitarian aid to the Palestinian Gaza Strip. A number of other people were wounded. Israel said the passengers initiated the attack; the passengers blamed the troops.

    That incident drew widespread condemnation and cast a spotlight on the dynamics of the Gaza crisis. On Saturday, Israel intercepted the final boat that was part of the flotilla, though the incident aboard the Irish-owned MV Rachel Corrie ended peacefully about 22 miles off the Gaza coast.

    Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev dismissed the the video link, saying, "The GPO sends out lots of articles. It doesn't mean they like it."

    Regev said he first noticed the video on the New York Times website.

    "I called my kids in to watch it because I thought it was funny," he said. "It is what Israelis feel. But the government has nothing to do with it. The GPO distributes non-government items, things that we think that show our side of the story."

    It was not the first time the Israeli GPO stirred controversy with its public communications on the Gaza flotilla.

    Prior to the storming of the Turkish ship, the GPO sent an e-mail to journalists sarcastically recommending that while covering "alleged humanitarian difficulties," journalists should dine at one of Gaza's few restaurants.

    "We have been told the beef stroganoff and cream of spinach soup are highly recommended," the e-mail said.

    The message included an internet link to an old promotional video for the restaurant. The e-mail drew criticism from the foreign press and pro-Palestinian activists.

    In an interview with the Jerusalem Post, GPO director Danny Seaman defended the communication, arguing that foreign media coverage of Gaza was not balanced.




    This is the video they're talking about (undeniably funny but understandably offensive to many people ):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KUcv452KbU

  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #495 - June 06, 2010, 06:25 PM
     mysmilie_977

    can they dig a bigger hole?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #496 - June 06, 2010, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 06, 2010, 06:19 PM
    Another blunder by Israel  015

    Israeli government office links to video mocking flotilla

    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/05/gaza.flotilla.mock.video/index.html




    This is the video they're talking about (undeniably funny but understandably offensive to many people ):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KUcv452KbU



    Which Israeli government office  are you talking dear IA? And who made that Video?? and what is so offensive in the video., Is that because 9 people died on it.,  The other boats of  Flotilla seems to be doing O.K., except the 1st one with Turkish redneck captaining it for intifada against IDF..

    Quote
    mysmilie_977

    can they dig a bigger hole?

    It is good to dig holes from both sides., That is how you dilute the RAGE.. The rage dear BlackDog ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #497 - June 06, 2010, 06:31 PM
    there is no clarification on hamas. where Israeli officials admitted on Iran. where is the wiki on the support to hamas by israel?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #498 - June 06, 2010, 06:36 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on June 06, 2010, 06:26 PM
    Which Israeli government office  are you talking dear IA?

    The Israeli government's press division.


    Quote from: yeezevee on June 06, 2010, 06:26 PM
    And who made that Video??

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latma_TV
    http://www.youtube.com/user/LatmaTV


    Quote from: yeezevee on June 06, 2010, 06:26 PM
    and what is so offensive in the video., Is that because 9 people died on it.,  The other boats of  Flotilla seems to be doing O.K., except the 1st one with Turkish redneck captaining it for intifada against IDF..

    It's offensive to the families of people who died an we're injured?! Did you even watch the video?


    Quote from: yeezevee on June 06, 2010, 06:26 PM
    It is good to dig holes from both sides., That is how you dilute the RAGE.. The rage dear BlackDog ..

    Umm, mocking the flotilla incident will dilute the rage?  Thinking hard
    And it's not just that. The Israeli government is endorsing the mocking and linking to the video.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #499 - June 06, 2010, 06:41 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 06, 2010, 01:23 AM
    Let's not get too vague and abstract.


    Well the point of debating these issues in abstract form, is that it analyses why we hold specific opinions on various issues, i.e philosophical principles.

    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist
    Like I said before I don't think Israel should've been established in the way it was.


    Why should it have been established at all?

    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist
    I would've preferred a bi-national state.


    Would this have ever been acceptable to the key founders of Israel? Why not one nation? Why the need for division?

     
    Quote from: Oraqi Atheist
    But now that's considered utopia.


    Maybe even then it was.

    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist
    So the next best solution is the two-state solution.
     Which requires Israel to withdraw to '67 borders including letting go of east Jerusalem and to recognize the right of return to Palestinian refugees or at least offer compensation.


    Why 1967 borders? Why not 1948?

    Why only East Jerusalem? Why not Haifa for example?

    Why is the right of return for Palestinian refugees not on offer?

    If right of return is not offered, how will the compensation level be determined?

    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist
    Kadima is not so bad. Fatah's constitution says its aim is the "complete liberation of Palestine".  


    And their definition of "Palestine" seems to vary.

    The Israeli constitution ensures the unity of Jerusalem, and the status of a unified Jerusalem as Israel's capital.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #500 - June 06, 2010, 06:42 PM
    despite there is no official detail on hamas aided by Israel. I would not be surprised if possible truth exist. familiar with mentality exist in type of people such as shimon peres, Ariel Sharon possibility exist. these people hold no ethics nor morals. however to me it is unclear on the issue of hamas aside what I already know.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #501 - June 06, 2010, 06:53 PM
    Quote from: MrSilly
    Why 1967 borders? Why not 1948?

    Why only East Jerusalem? Why not Haifa for example?

    why at all? To the victor belong the spoils.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #502 - June 06, 2010, 07:01 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 06, 2010, 06:19 PM
    Another blunder by Israel  015

    Israeli government office links to video mocking flotilla

    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/05/gaza.flotilla.mock.video/index.html




    This is the video they're talking about (undeniably funny but understandably offensive to many people ):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KUcv452KbU


    It's extreamly funny. The more potentially offensive something is, the funnier I tend to find it (though I try and clear my conscious by telling myself that I do realise that some people would be quite hurt by it......)
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #503 - June 06, 2010, 09:21 PM
    Quote from: MrSilly on June 06, 2010, 06:41 PM
    Well the point of debating these issues in abstract form, is that it analyses why we hold specific opinions on various issues, i.e philosophical principles.

    Point taken.


    Quote from: MrSilly on June 06, 2010, 06:41 PM
    Why should it have been established at all?

    Not saying it should have been. But if it had to be established, a binational state would've been the best possible setup.


    Quote from: MrSilly on June 06, 2010, 06:41 PM
    Would this have ever been acceptable to the key founders of Israel? Why not one nation? Why the need for division?

    I have no answe to this question. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the history of that period. But my guess is if the Arabs were more flexible it could have been possible.


    Quote from: MrSilly on June 06, 2010, 06:41 PM
    Maybe even then it was.

    Probably.


    Quote from: MrSilly on June 06, 2010, 06:41 PM
    Why 1967 borders? Why not 1948?

    Why only East Jerusalem? Why not Haifa for example?

    Why is the right of return for Palestinian refugees not on offer?

    If right of return is not offered, how will the compensation level be determined?

    I'm not gonna lie to you the only reason why I said 67 and not 48 is feasibility.
    Same thing with the right of return. The only just solution is for Israel to offer the full right of return. However, with that being nearly impossible I would welcome financial compensation if Israel offered it as long as Israel acknowledges the right of the new Palestinian state to total control of its immigration policy.


    Quote from: MrSilly on June 06, 2010, 06:41 PM
    The Israeli constitution ensures the unity of Jerusalem, and the status of a unified Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

    Which is why I think it should be amended. I'm against any unilateral change of the status of Jerusalem. It's an occupied city as far as I'm concerned. I embrace the corpus separatum.


    Quote from: ygalg on June 06, 2010, 06:53 PM
    why at all? To the victor belong the spoils.

    Assume there will be a war in the future and the Arabs advance into 48 borders and annex it into Palestine, would that make it legitimate?
    Also do you consider Judea, Samaria, and Gaza parts of Israel or occupied territories? what about Jordan?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #504 - June 06, 2010, 09:26 PM
    Oh and Saathiya, did you see my reply to your post? care to respond? if not, could you please from now on (when you quote me and address me directly) tell me in advance that you're not gonna reply to my replies?

    Thanks Smiley

    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 04, 2010, 06:15 AM
    My reply to Saathiya

  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #505 - June 06, 2010, 11:38 PM
    Quote from: atheist.pk on June 06, 2010, 12:38 PM
    Plenty:

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2006/01/27/hamas-son-of-israel/
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SZA204A.html
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

    ...and many more.

     whistling2

    Thanks for the articles mate.  Afro

    I thought I'd share this:

    Attached image is missing * Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.jpg (92.7 KB, 555x522 - viewed 253 times.)
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #506 - June 06, 2010, 11:53 PM
    There's a bit of a logical disconnect going on here. If you're going to argue for moral absolutes and say that Palestinians have a right to land they used to hold, then how can you argue against Zionists who argue that the Jews have a right to land they used to hold? They are basically using the same argument.

    If time does not legitimise immoral actions then by that logic it wouldn't matter whether the period in question was fifty years or two thousand years.   
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #507 - June 07, 2010, 10:38 PM
    that's an interesting question. would Palestinians apply to themselves same logic after let say two thousands years?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #508 - June 07, 2010, 10:45 PM
    My point here is that moral "absolutes" (which in reality are pretty much arbitrary anyway) are not going to be the sole basis for making decisions in the real world. Practical considerations come into it too.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #509 - June 07, 2010, 10:51 PM
    It wasn't the Palestinians who removed the Jews. First it was the Babylonians and then the Romans.

    Anyway, I think Israel now has a legitimate undeniable right to exist even if its establishment wasn't justified in 1948.
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