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 Topic: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships

 (Read 107295 times)
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  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #510 - June 07, 2010, 10:59 PM

    Yes but it doesn't matter who removed them. There have been arguments made in this thread that things should be decided on the basis of who used to own what. Whether this was buggered up by Babylonians or little green men makes no difference.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #511 - June 07, 2010, 11:06 PM

    Oh I don't disagree with any of that.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #512 - June 07, 2010, 11:12 PM

    I do.  grin12 See if people really want a solution to this debacle it has to be one which is actually achievable in the real world. You said earlier that '67 borders would work, although you'd prefer '48 borders but they weren't practical. The thing is that really '67 aren't practical either, simply because the Israelis would never accept them. The reason they would never accept them is the same reason they seized the extra land in the first place: because they thought it was necessary for them to have a strategic buffer zone around their core territory, given that they are surrounded by people who want to wipe them out.

    Whether you or anyone else agrees with this doesn't matter, because you'll never convince the Israelis otherwise. '67 borders are tiny. You could spit across '67 Israel from the desert to the sea. The Israelis view accepting '67 borders as effectively being suicide and frankly I think they do have a point there, given that you have Hamas (for example) that has only ever offered a ceasefire rather than recognition and acceptance of Israel.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #513 - June 08, 2010, 12:03 AM

    1-Why are assuming that if Israel offered to retreat to '67 borders, Hamas won't accept it?

    2-Do you seriously think that Hamas can threaten the existence of Israel?
    The fact is no Arab military can even come close to the IDF. Not to mention the US support.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #514 - June 08, 2010, 12:17 AM

    1/ Because Hamas has never indicated that they would accept it. All they have ever offered is a ceasefire. Hamas only offers a ceasefire when they want an opportunity to build up their resources for another attack. This is how they have always operated. For Hamas to offer a ceasefire in exchange for '67 borders will be interpreted like this:

    "If you give up your strategic buffer zone completely and retreat to a miniscule enclave on the coast that is small enough for us to fire rockets clean across without even trying, we'll promise (and hey, you can trust us you fucking apes and pigs) to not try to kill you this week. Kthnx."

    This is not going to be seen as an enticing proposition.  Wink

    2/ Probably not if it was just Hamas, but it isn't. There's something else too. It's not just about a straight military showdown on a battlefield. If you retreat to '67 borders then immediately you have made sure that every square inch of Israel can be attacked at any time of the day or night. Given that by their own words Hamas are going to attack, would you agree to this if you were an Israeli?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #515 - June 08, 2010, 12:33 AM

    The borders of Gaza barely changed since 67 so Hamas won't gain any territory.





    Do you see the green spots on the fourth picture? how could that possibly be a state?

    The entire West Bank is regarded as "occupied territory" under international law.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_territories_captured_by_Israel
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #516 - June 08, 2010, 12:43 AM

    would you agree to this if you were an Israeli?


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #517 - June 08, 2010, 12:58 AM

    If the PLO, Hamas, and the major Arab states offered to recognize Israel and agreed to sign a peace treaty, yes without a doubt.

    And believe me it isn't impossible. There has been efforts and positive steps taken : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #518 - June 08, 2010, 01:01 AM

    Yeah, if they do that then that would be a different kettle of fish, but they haven't done it yet. That's one of the problems.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #519 - June 08, 2010, 02:22 AM

    But the right-wing establishment including the Likud have made it clear that retreating to the '67 borders is out of the question in any circumstance. 
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #520 - June 08, 2010, 05:39 AM

    Given that by their own words Hamas are going to attack, would you agree to this if you were an Israeli?

    Even if Hamas really did say that, extremist organizations on both sides would become irrelevant if Israel retreated to its '67 borders and Palestine became a recognized state. People choose extreme organizations in extreme situations.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #521 - June 08, 2010, 07:26 AM

    But the right-wing establishment including the Likud have made it clear that retreating to the '67 borders is out of the question in any circumstance. 

    Yeah but with any luck Likud wont be in power forever.

    Even if Hamas really did say that, extremist organizations on both sides would become irrelevant if Israel retreated to its '67 borders and Palestine became a recognized state. People choose extreme organizations in extreme situations.

    Well yeah, which might explain why Israelis are voting in right wing governments. I mean having people set off bombs on your buses could be viewed as sorta extreme.

    Neither side trusts the other and both sides have good reasons to not trust each other. Even without the religious side of it that would be enough to keep the idiocy going.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #522 - June 08, 2010, 10:23 AM

    It wasn't the Palestinians who removed the Jews. First it was the Babylonians and then the Romans.

    Anyway, I think Israel now has a legitimate undeniable right to exist even if its establishment wasn't justified in 1948.

    and then the Byzantines, then Muslims (not during Omar's rule). the Palestinians were not yet introduced. not until 1964.

    it was justified in 1948. before 1948 the land that Jews held were legitimate. but wars create another privileges. as the say "To victory goes the spoils". need to consider the point that Israel did not initiated the wars.


  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #523 - June 08, 2010, 10:24 AM

    Even if Hamas really did say that, extremist organizations on both sides would become irrelevant if Israel retreated to its '67 borders and Palestine became a recognized state. People choose extreme organizations in extreme situations.

    if only Palestinians were swedes. Roll Eyes
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #524 - June 08, 2010, 10:31 AM

    another point to consider is that territories that Israel annexed were considered to be use as bargaining cards.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #525 - June 08, 2010, 10:35 AM

    "To victory goes the spoils"

    You wouldn't be saying that if Israel had lost.  Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #526 - June 08, 2010, 10:36 AM

    Israel gave up Sinai which was larger than Israel itself to Egypt in exchange for peace. tho peace is relative. and between leaders there is a unique relations. in spite of Islamic objectors. Sadat who signed the treaty, murdered in result by Palestinian organization.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #527 - June 08, 2010, 10:40 AM

    You wouldn't be saying that if Israel had lost.  Wink

    throughout history Jews were more than generous with their occupiers.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #528 - June 08, 2010, 10:40 AM

    True, but on the other hand Sinai is arguably useless anyway.  grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #529 - June 08, 2010, 10:45 AM

    Israel was also Sinai (desert). Israel does not have natural resources except man power grin12
    as an Islamic cleric formulated once "jews turn desert into oasis"
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #530 - June 08, 2010, 10:48 AM

    Jews have the competence to turn something out of nothing. that kinda defies science. god probably exist Cheesy
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #531 - June 08, 2010, 10:51 AM

    despite there is no official detail on hamas aided by Israel. I would not be surprised if possible truth exist. familiar with mentality exist in type of people such as shimon peres, Ariel Sharon possibility exist. these people hold no ethics nor morals. however to me it is unclear on the issue of hamas aside what I already know.



    Of course Israel supported Hamas.

    http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas    

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_watson_012703_hamas.html

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm           

    There is a lot of information out on that fact.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #532 - June 08, 2010, 11:05 AM

    I repeat there is no official detail on hamas aided by Israel when you have the official source that explicitly display Israel supported hamas do bring it.
    you reverting what been already drawn. it seems there are people who think if they do over again, it will result with different outcome. in the meantime you're beating a dead horse.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #533 - June 08, 2010, 11:20 AM

    Umm, Mossad are not going to give an interview for Haaretz detailing past support for Hamas. Aint going to happen.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #534 - June 08, 2010, 11:24 AM

    ygalg are you jewish?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #535 - June 08, 2010, 11:28 AM

    He's Israeli but not religious, so technically not Jewish as such.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #536 - June 08, 2010, 11:41 AM

    I repeat there is no official detail on hamas aided by Israel when you have the official source that explicitly display Israel supported hamas do bring it.
    you reverting what been already drawn. it seems there are people who think if they do over again, it will result with different outcome. in the meantime you're beating a dead horse.


    Which officials are you talking about?

    There is other officials that say Israel supported Hamas, indirectly and directly. The israels thought they would be a nice power up against Plo. They let Hamas build their Islamic University of Gaza in 1978, and the rest is history, no matter officials.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #537 - June 08, 2010, 12:14 PM


    Quote
    An irrational, obscene hatred
    By WILLIAM SHAWCROSS
    06/07/2010 22:11


    Israel is a cartoon villain, beyond sympathy, beyond even redemption. What is shocking – and frightening – is that the narrative the world accepts is always that of Israel as the evildoer.

    ‘Shut up. Go back to Auschwitz.” That was the response from the “peace flotilla” when Israel broadcast a radio message warning the Turkish flotilla that it was about to enter an area under naval blockade. In another response, someone on board the “humanitarian aid convoy” replied: “We’re helping the Arabs go against the US. Don’t forget 9/11, guys.” After these exchanges, IDF commandos landed on the ships. On the Mavi Marmara they were attacked by pro-Palestinian activists wielding iron bars.

    Turkish papers have now published photographs of soldiers bleeding badly as they are assaulted by thugs.

    Eventually the commandos shot back in self-defense and nine activists were killed. It was a disaster for Israel and a triumph for those who hate Israel, Jews and the West. Bulent Yildirim, head of the Turkish Islamist organization IHH, which organized the flotilla, exulted in a speech to an audience he called “people of paradise.” “Last night, everything in the world has changed, and everything is progressing toward Islam,” he said.

    THAT IS the reality today. Consider these words from Sheikh Hussein bin Mahmud, a pseudonymous but apparently popular commentator in the global jihadist community: “Everyone who has had contact with the Jews and lived alongside them, in the East and in the West, has spurned them, loathed them and detested them, to the point where Hitler said, ‘I could kill all the Jews in the world, but I left a few alive so that the entire world will know why I killed the Jews.’”

    Such raw hatred of Jews, let alone Israel, is commonplace in the Middle East, even without an excuse such as last week’s deadly incident. The “peace flotilla” was no such thing. It had some peaceful people aboard, but its organizer, IHH, is a part of the Muslim Brotherhood, an openly terrorist organization pledged to the destruction of Israel and the triumph of Shari’a law everywhere. Scores of the “peace passengers” were Islamic militants pledged to kill Jews and secure martyrdom for themselves. Hence the confrontation with the Israeli commandos and the tragedy of the deaths on board.

    That was not enough for Sheikh Hussein. He declared that the Turks should “kill every Jew in Turkey.” Moreover, “Gaza does not want ‘freedom ships’ bearing blonde women with Muslim, Christian, Jewish and atheist men; it wants a naval fleet and a land army bearing black Islamic banners... Gaza will not agree to a cease-fire with the Jews. On the contrary, it is thirsty to drink the blood of the sons of apes and pigs, and it is hungry and longs to devour the body parts of these cowards.”

    Western critics of Israel often say that they are not anti-Semitic, merely anti-Zionist. No such distinction occurs to commentators such as Sheikh Hussein – Jews, Israelis, they are all “the sons of apes and pigs.”

    It is not surprising that such racist loathing creates a siege mentality in Israel. Worse is the fact that Israelis know it’s not just “the black Islamic banners” with which they have to contend, but also the irrational hatred of much of the rest of the world

    The realities of Gaza, Israel and the West Bank – where, with Israel’s assistance, the Palestinian economy is booming – are deemed irrelevant to the conventional narrative. Israel is a cartoon villain, beyond sympathy, beyond even redemption. What is deeply shocking – and frightening – is that the narrative the world accepts is always that of Israel the evildoer.

    It was true with the so-called Jenin massacre allegedly committed by the Israelis in 2002. There was no such massacre. It was a lie that was widely and uncritically propagated by the UN, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the BBC. It is true today. The hatred that Israel arouses is absurd, even obscene. One senior military source was quoted last week as saying it did not matter what his country did; however carefully it responded to such events as the “peace flotilla,” it would always be condemned in the UN, on the BBC and almost everywhere else.

    The bien pensants of the Western world are never prepared to give Israel the benefit of any doubt. The UN has become more of a lynch mob than a constructive debating chamber. Israel’s right to defend itself is ignored. So is the fact that Iran has threatened to obliterate it, and that the Hamas rulers of Gaza are Iranian agents also pledged to its destruction.

    LAST WEEK, the UN, as always, jumped instantly to the conclusions most damaging to Israel. The UN Human Rights Council, of which Iran is a member, instantly denounced Israel for its “attacks on the flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian assistance.”

    Similarly, the Israeli ambassador to the EU was harangued and abused in the European Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee. No one was interested in his explanation, and when he showed images of IDF soldiers being beaten with iron bars on the Mavi Marmara, MEPs asserted the film was faked propaganda. The only person to defend Israel at all was Charles Tannock, the Conservative MEP. (Unlike the Israeli ambassador, the Iranian ambassador was treated with courtesy.)

    Israel is an imperfect society (like any other), but it has extraordinary social, scientific and scholastic achievements. Despite living under endless threats, it is far closer to the liberal ideal of a free society than any other in the Middle East. But it gets scant credit.

    Europe prides itself on its tolerance of gay rights, free speech and feminism. These are all integral to Israeli society also, but Israel gets scant credit for that. Radical Muslims, on the other hand, stone women, hang homosexuals and kill to deny free speech. Do Europeans protest that? Not many, not often.

    Israel is held to a far higher standard than any other nation. Few people seem to care much about North Korean atrocities, at home and abroad, let alone its terrifying nuclear defiance of the world. No one marches or calls emergency meetings of the UN and the EU to protest the vicious Muslim brutality against other Muslims that takes place every day throughout the Islamic world – and beyond. No one demonstrates on behalf of Christians murdered in the Middle East, their churches burned. Such horrors are waved away. Only Israel merits such constant abuse.

    The Muslim world and the Western Left are in an unholy alliance; they do not want to improve the Jewish state, they want to remove it. Israel has come to expect double standards from Europe and assault from the UN.

    Much more serious is the loss of support from the Obama administration.

    In his attempts to reach out to the Islamic world, Barack Obama has abandoned the US tradition of whole-hearted support for one of its principal allies

    He has showed himself far more tolerant of (or unconcerned by) abuses of power in the Muslim world than by mistakes of Israel.

    Most recently, Obama backed a Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty conference statement that singled out Israel in calling for a nuclear-free Middle East. No other president has ever done that, and Israelis are understandably concerned. What Obama does not seem to understand is that his lack of support for Israel not only saps Israel, it emboldens its enemies.

    The Middle East and the world are now a much more dangerous place as “the sons [and daughters] of apes and pigs” are delegitimized once again. On their way back to Auschwitz, if their enemies succeed.

    William Shawcross is a British writer and journalist. In 2003 he wrote Allies – Why the West had to remove Saddam. He is now working on a book about the implications of the trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to be published by Public Affairs Press, NYC.


    http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=177768

    A lot of truth in that.

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #538 - June 08, 2010, 01:04 PM

    In 2003 he wrote Allies – Why the West had to remove Saddam.

    helloooo..........................

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #539 - June 08, 2010, 01:17 PM

    Obviously the dude knows what he is talking about. Right?  grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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