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 Topic: Saudi women fight for autonomy

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  • Saudi women fight for autonomy
     OP - June 02, 2010, 08:51 AM

    Quote
    Saudi women fight for autonomy
    by Nesrine Malik

    In Saudi Arabia, women aren't allowed to travel without the say-so of a male relative. Will they put up with it for much longer?


    When living in Saudi Arabia, every time I wanted to travel outside the kingdom I had to produce a piece of paper from my male guardian authorising my movements in order to be granted an exit visa. This process became more difficult when my father passed away, after which my sisters and I were left scrambling for the closest male relative to sanction our travel.

    Several of my Saudi friends had to forgo completing their studies abroad when their families refused permission. The lucky few managed to get a younger brother to accompany them for the entire duration of their studies.

    The wali, or guardian, is the practical underwriter of a woman's existence in Saudi Arabia. These mahrams (male relatives whom it is haram – forbidden – to wed) sit in a pyramid of patronage with the father and husband at the pinnacle, descending through uncles (paternal uncles higher up the scale, naturally) and bottoming out with brothers.

    The power and significance of the wali in each woman's life differs according to the family and relationship. While some are relatively relaxed about their duties and their approval for travel, etc, is merely a formality, others abuse their positions and can totally dictate the course of a woman's life.

    Recently, according to Sabria Jawhar in an article for the Huffington Post, "Pressure from outside Saudi Arabia has been building to abolish guardianship laws, and a number of women who fashion themselves as activists have led the charge."

    Jawhar is upset with a female Saudi activist named Wajeha al-Huwaider whom she accuses of "showboating" and "unseemly" behaviour. Huwaider's "showboating" involved a public protest in which she was driven to the Saudi border with Bahrain and then got turned back due to her inability to produce her guardian's written permission to travel.

    To counter this liberal activism, a conservative campaign – under the slogan "My Guardian Knows the Best for Me" – was recently launched to oppose dismantling of the guardianship system. The movement, launched by Rawdah el-Yousif (although ironically, she is in dispute with a man over who can claim the credit for the campaign) is a vehicle for, in Rawdah's words, expressing "dismay at the efforts of some who have liberal demands that do not comply with Islamic law or with the kingdom's traditions and customs".

    In an overwhelmingly patriarchal and segregated society, where there is little accommodation of women in official circles, it is not surprising that men should be able to conduct affairs on behalf of their female relatives. For a female without a mahram, carrying out even the most basic transactions in places staffed entirely by ogling, dismissive, men is excruciating. But to legally hand the reins entirely to men signs over the fate of half the population to those who are potentially capricious, overbearing and misogynistic in a deeply traditional society.

    The additional legal layer, in most cases, is entirely superfluous as most families will act according to custom, tradition and specific family values. The majority will self-regulate. As Sabria Jawhar says, "Many families treat their wives, daughters and sisters with great respect and don't follow their every move. Permission to travel or to conduct business abroad is often granted carte blanche with a signed piece of paper from a mahram. Many women travel freely with this document and consult little with the men in their families about their movements."

    But what this legal dimension does in other cases is ensure that despotic guardians have an iron grip, leaving little leeway for their women to flee, travel or challenge their guardianship. Abolition of the guardianship system (in itself an improbable event) is unlikely to result in hordes of women running amok in the streets and airports of Riyadh – so what is it that prompts other women to entreat the authorities not to do away with a way of life that is not immediately under threat?

    I do not believe it is anything as clichéd as Stockholm syndrome or even a sincere commitment to what they believe are religious values. Even under subjugation, women have power, mostly over other women, and that power is drawn from their hard-earned position in the established hierarchy.

    Those that have excelled at compliance have achieved some status and can then look down on the less honourable and rebellious. An assault on this system destroys an entire arsenal of survival skills and lifetime of work. Like the chronically redundant, they would have to retrain and re-enter the job market at junior level with all the other upstarts. In fact, by allying themselves to the male guardians, women are then delegated power that they can in turn wield themselves. They have a vested interest in the status quo and in maintaining their positions as the matrons of propriety.


    It is true that public demonstrations of opposition to the wali system may alienate popular opinion and rally support only from abroad, but launching such a counter campaign reeks of distasteful one-upmanship of its own. The agenda is to discredit any women who call for more freedom in Saudi as agents of external liberal forces before any of their efforts or values become remotely mainstream.

    Nobody is stopping women from deferring to their guardians' authority in their private lives, but insisting that this authority applies across the board shows a shocking disregard for other women not privileged enough to have guardians who "know what's best for them".


    source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/05/saudi-arabia-womens-rights


    This is a deeper analysis of why women choose to remain in a religio-political system where they are 2nd class citizens. Habit. And, established hierarchies wherein they get to have power over other women (younger women, domestic servants, daughters-in-law, etc.)


    Here is a lengthier piece on this "My Guardian Knows the Best for Me" campaign: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01iht-saudi.html?pagewanted=all

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #1 - June 02, 2010, 08:56 AM

    Margerot Atwood should move to Saudi and write a novel based on her experiences.
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #2 - June 02, 2010, 09:03 AM

     yes The whole thing is right out of The Handmaid's Tale.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #3 - June 02, 2010, 09:10 AM

    I have tried reading that book. She is a fantastic writer but all the details and descriptions bog me down :(

    Maybe when I'm older Grin
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #4 - June 02, 2010, 09:48 AM

    @ allat

    you might find this one hour long video (riddled with the same stupid ads) somewhat related.

     http://www.mtv.com/videos/true-life-resist-the-power-saudi-arabia/1639546/playlist.jhtml

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #5 - June 02, 2010, 10:32 AM

    Thanks debunker. But it looks as though that's only available in the U.S. Huh?

    I have tried reading that book. She is a fantastic writer but all the details and descriptions bog me down :(

    Maybe when I'm older Grin


    Yeah it is not an easy read, but it's one of the best books I've ever read. Highly recommend it. Also, the movie based on it wasn't half bad.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #6 - June 02, 2010, 10:40 AM

    yes The whole thing is right out of The Handmaid's Tale.


    That's a good book Smiley. I read it a few years ago. Now I want to read it again to see if I've changed as a person and my interpretation as well.

    Interesting read, Allat...thanks.  I don't know what to make of it though. Are we saying that this system is potentially good for them even in its messed up ancient ideology? Because from the looks of this, if women have simply accepted it, then I dont see any change being brought about.

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #7 - June 02, 2010, 10:51 AM

    That's a good book Smiley. I read it a few years ago. Now I want to read it again to see if I've changed as a person and my interpretation as well.


    Good idea. I read it long ago too... will read it again also, though I did a paper on it for my HS english class and so got into it pretty deeply back then.

    Interesting read, Allat...thanks.  I don't know what to make of it though. Are we saying that this system is potentially good for them even in its messed up ancient ideology? Because from the looks of this, if women have simply accepted it, then I dont see any change being brought about.


    Well, I'd say that the younger generations of women (and men) are growing up with different priorities than playing out the same old roles, as well as with more communication/interaction (especially through the internet) with the outside world. We're probably going to see more and more social upheaval and things will slowly (verrrrrrryyyyy slllooowwwwlllyyyy) change to include more freedoms for women in KSA.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #8 - June 02, 2010, 11:27 AM

    Thanks for the article, allat. The parts you added emphasis to really hit the nail on the head, imho.

    And, established hierarchies wherein they get to have power over other women (younger women, domestic servants, daughters-in-law, etc.)

    These overlapping direct and indirect (read: religiously inspired, tribal) self-interests can be mutually fortifying, ensuring the continuity of the authoritarian islamic social system. It is easy to imagine that patriarchal interests might put women who are heavily religiously or socially invested in their power structure on the front-line to defend those interests, as they will do well to obfuscate the core issues whilst ensuring that the friendly face of male domination is kept at a safe distance. I doubt that reform from within such a restrictive environment can go far enough in challenging entrenched interests, unless it's supported by a radical rejection of authority from other quarters. It may be enough to force the hands of those in positions of power to allow greater freedoms, if only to prevent the popularisation of a more revolutionary cause from their point of view. Once women have some guaranteed basic freedoms, it will become feasible to form a popular progressive movement for women's liberation with better odds of success.

    Incidently, I would similarly advocate (on an individual basis) to some young apostates who are living under the thumb of their families and perceive of their oppression very keenly, yearning to challenge in order to liberate themselves and those around them. Standing against authority as one with no power is often met with incredulity or anger, many times resulting in the imposition of further curbs to freedom leading to a more difficult struggle in the long run. By taking an indirect route to establishing one's self as an individual, through education, career development, etc, it is possible to obtain freedom and furthermore become both an exemplar and advocate for those in similar circumstances.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #9 - June 02, 2010, 12:05 PM

    It's sad that this type of set up only pits women in competition with each other forcing them to become suspicious of other women which leads them to become bitter and vindictive as they get older.  I've noticed this same dynamic in Desi culture as well. 

    The young woman who comes to her in-laws house vowing never to turn into her mother-in-law will do exactly that after years of abuse and suppression at the hands of that same MIL and once that daughter learns that there is power to be had in lording it over other women she will end up perpetuating this vicious cycle with her own daughter-in-laws.

    Islamic and patriarchial societies make it near impossible for women to even have friends from their own peer groups because of this.  No wonder I see so many Muslim women walking around with miserable looks on their faces all the time.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #10 - June 02, 2010, 12:21 PM

    It's sad that this type of set up only pits women in competition with each other forcing them to become suspicious of other women which leads them to become bitter and vindictive as they get older.  I've noticed this same dynamic in Desi culture as well.  


    Yep. Divide and rule... the same tactic used by every oppressor throughout history. In this case, it's about dividing women among themselves so they never achieve a critical mass and demand rights.

    The young woman who comes to her in-laws house vowing never to turn into her mother-in-law will do exactly that after years of abuse and suppression at the hands of that same MIL and once that daughter learns that there is power to be had in lording it over other women she will end up perpetuating this vicious cycle with her own daughter-in-laws.


    Absolutely. This is a major problem in South Asian cultures, both Muslim and non-Muslim. Though, in Islam, it's sanctified by things like verse 4:34 and other Quranic and Hadiths-based shariah rulings, making them virtually unquestionable.

    Islamic and patriarchial societies make it near impossible for women to even have friends from their own peer groups because of this.  No wonder I see so many Muslim women walking around with miserable looks on their faces all the time.


    Yes it's sad. But of course they all have to put up the facade of "sisterhood" Roll Eyes





    This is the woman campaigning to keep women subjugated to their male "guardians":

    [source: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/06/01/world/0601SAUDI.html?ref=middleeast (good slideshow)]

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #11 - June 02, 2010, 12:25 PM

    “Women are the victims of this patriarchal culture, but they are also its carriers. Let us keep in mind that every oppressive man was raised in the confines of his mother's home.”
    -Shirin Ebadi

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #12 - June 02, 2010, 01:17 PM

    I've noticed this same dynamic in Desi culture as well. 

    The young woman who comes to her in-laws house vowing never to turn into her mother-in-law will do exactly that after years of abuse and suppression at the hands of that same MIL and once that daughter learns that there is power to be had in lording it over other women she will end up perpetuating this vicious cycle with her own daughter-in-laws.

    I was quite confused about Pariah's unusually anxious apprehension in meeting my mother for the first time (imagine a warm but bold, humorous and irrepressible woman of working class, caucasian extraction). I've since come to recognise the differing set of expectations some desi families have for their daughter-in-laws which can render women terrified of potential ill-treatment at the hands of their husbands' family. On another note, it somewhat stupefies that a man might actively ignore / allow his family to abuse someone he cares about (his wife) without making it clear that their behaviour is totally unacceptable. Is is due to deference to his mother, or because he deems inter-female relationship affairs as beneath his involvement, I wonder?

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #13 - June 02, 2010, 01:36 PM

    Yep. Divide and rule... the same tactic used by every oppressor throughout history. In this case, it's about dividing women among themselves so they never achieve a critical mass and demand rights.

    Absolutely. This is a major problem in South Asian cultures, both Muslim and non-Muslim. Though, in Islam, it's sanctified by things like verse 4:34 and other Quranic and Hadiths-based shariah rulings, making them virtually unquestionable.

    Yes it's sad. But of course they all have to put up the facade of "sisterhood" Roll Eyes





    This is the woman campaigning to keep women subjugated to their male "guardians":

    [source: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/06/01/world/0601SAUDI.html?ref=middleeast (good slideshow)]


    DAMN!  That woman needs to hire a new interior designer.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #14 - June 02, 2010, 01:36 PM

    Grin
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #15 - June 02, 2010, 01:40 PM

    BTW, I think she's a real biotch!  Just because HER guardian treats her well and lets her have some autonomy doesn't mean that other women's guardians will be as easy going.  Talk about short sighted!  finmad

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #16 - June 02, 2010, 01:52 PM

    Exactly! This privileged woman thinks her guardian knows what's best for her, and that she knows what's best for all other women. Her guardian BTW is her brother, because she is divorced and retained custody of her 3 children - something quite rare in such a patriarchal society. She's had it fine, so she presumes other women will too, if only they'd just submit their will to their male masters. Wonder if she just couldn't bring herself to submit to her proper master, her husband. I have such words for women like her...... but I'll refrain from bending to her level, as she seems to spend most of her time bent over enough for all women everywhere.

    Her privileged bullshit apparently doesn't include women like this http://www.breitbart.tv/woman-beaten-for-not-wearing-burqa/?comments=1

    or this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVFW_YcZKbI

    and the countless thousands plus more who are abused by their "guardians" daily. furious

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #17 - June 02, 2010, 02:57 PM

    Exactly! This privileged woman thinks her guardian knows what's best for her, and that she knows what's best for all other women. Her guardian BTW is her brother, because she is divorced and retained custody of her 3 children - something quite rare in such a patriarchal society. She's had it fine, so she presumes other women will too, if only they'd just submit their will to their male masters. Wonder if she just couldn't bring herself to submit to her proper master, her husband. I have such words for women like her...... but I'll refrain from bending to her level, as she seems to spend most of her time bent over enough for all women everywhere.

    Her privileged bullshit apparently doesn't include women like this http://www.breitbart.tv/woman-beaten-for-not-wearing-burqa/?comments=1

    or this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVFW_YcZKbI

    and the countless thousands plus more who are abused by their "guardians" daily. furious

    Privilege can be an uncomfortable subject for those who recognise themselves as beneficiaries to some degree. Lauding useful idiots such as Rowdha Yousef serves to alleviate cognitive dissonance the privileged come to experience more and more in our media rich world, where the plight of the oppressed is difficult to ignore.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #18 - June 02, 2010, 03:25 PM

    it somewhat stupefies that a man might actively ignore / allow his family to abuse someone he cares about (his wife) without making it clear that their behaviour is totally unacceptable. Is is due to deference to his mother, or because he deems inter-female relationship affairs as beneath his involvement, I wonder?


    Some men do get in between or speak up, but too often, yes it's laughed off like it's just those stupid women fighting again, look how cute and powerless they really are. Men are also raised by mothers to put them (the mother) before the wife, so a lot of times, it's the wife who has to put up with the crap of her husband's family, especially considering that most families live in joint-family households. The wives then raise their sons to be their foot soldiers so they can hold the power over their own daughters-in-law. It's an endless cycle of grabbing for power in all the wrong places. I knew from a very early age that if I ever were to marry a man, it wouldn't be a Pakistani man (no offense to Pakistanis here). In my experience the daughter-in-law is the maid-servant until the old lady croaks and/or if the daughter-in-law has lots of sons.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #19 - June 02, 2010, 03:35 PM

    There are some serious exceptions though. My uncle's wife comes from a family where there were like 4 or 5 sisters and their mother raised them to be rabid and antagonistic (to be on the defensive at all times). So my aunt always fought with everyone in her husband's family even though they (my mother's family) were pretty lax about these things and never asked her to raise a finger to clean the house or take care of anyone. In such cases, the wife comes in with guns loaded to take on the whole family. The result is that my uncle hates his wife, she's alienated his whole family from him and he attempted suicide 3 times in the marriage.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #20 - June 02, 2010, 03:44 PM

    Some men do get in between or speak up, but too often, yes it's laughed off like it's just those stupid women fighting again, look how cute and powerless they really are. Men are also raised by mothers to put them (the mother) before the wife, so a lot of times, it's the wife who has to put with the crap of her husband's family, especially considering that most families live in joint-family households. The wives then raise their sons to be their foot soldiers so they can hold the power over their own daughters-in-law. It's an endless cycle of grabbing for power in all the wrong places. I knew from a very early age that if I ever were to marry a man, it wouldn't be a Pakistani man (no offense to Pakistanis here). In my experience the daughter-in-law is the maid until the old lady croaks and/or if the daughter-in-law has lots of sons.

    Sounds more like a brothel madam than a mother-in-law, protecting their sons investment by ensuring the wife / wives solely service him / his interests whilst producing profit in the form of offspring.  no

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #21 - June 02, 2010, 03:48 PM

    There are some serious exceptions though. My uncle's wife comes from a family where there were like 4 or 5 sisters and their mother raised them to be rabid and antagonistic (to be on the defensive at all times). So my aunt always fought with everyone in her husband's family even though they (my mother's family) were pretty lax about these things and never asked her to raise a finger to clean the house or take care of anyone. In such cases, the wife comes in with guns loaded to take on the whole family. The result is that my uncle hates his wife, she's alienated his whole family from him and he attempted suicide 3 times in the marriage.

    That's quite a sad case. Sometimes a little compromise can go a long way in maintaining good relations with those around us, yet some are unable / unwilling to consider anyone else's position / interests.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #22 - June 03, 2010, 02:48 AM

    It's sad women have to live in this type of society.
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #23 - June 03, 2010, 05:04 AM

    Thanks for this post. I have a lot I want to say but... I'm not Saudi enough to speak up.
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #24 - June 03, 2010, 05:49 AM

    Grin
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #25 - June 03, 2010, 09:45 PM

    Well, I'd say that the younger generations of women (and men) are growing up with different priorities than playing out the same old roles, as well as with more communication/interaction (especially through the internet) with the outside world. We're probably going to see more and more social upheaval and things will slowly (verrrrrrryyyyy slllooowwwwlllyyyy) change to include more freedoms for women in KSA.


    This unfortunately comes across as the most feasible solution to the problem. It's not like the Royal Family aren't advocating freedoms for women (with the Universities being built, their own palaces/workplaces).

    Changing memes of a population takes A) slow evolution through freedom and dispersion of information or B) a revolution, and can't see that happening.

    I do feel the moderate Islamic meme is to blame and although I don't have solid evidence I feel Islam serves as a breeding ground with even 2nd generation immigrant Muslims in the UK in promoting oppression on women. Can't go into details about my cousin as an example, but just wanted to mention that I do see it happening unfortunately.
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #26 - June 10, 2010, 04:14 PM

     Huh?  Cry  finmad  I have a question... are KSA royal women any better or worse off?  Or are they exempt from some/much of this?  This issue only flairs up in the news occassionally, and then it goes silent again in the USA. 

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Saudi women fight for autonomy
     Reply #27 - June 13, 2010, 12:22 PM

    From what I've gathered the royals in KSA don't have to toe the line as much as the general populace but from having read blogs and articles from and about Saudi it appears that money and who you know within the government can get you out of trouble so a rich woman with influence in the right places could easily buy off the officials whereas a poor woman would have no such luck and if you are a foreigner or a naturalized Saudi of African descent then you're screwed.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
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